Season 4 Roundup

[King Cheops]

It should probably also be pointed out that any criticism from GRRM about future plots is probably very unfair to D&D. They are trying to produce a series with shifting goal posts. GRRM's work has clearly seen some shifts in tone, style, and themes as GRRM himself goes through things in his life. For D&D to have to anticipate his whims for how he wants to get from the end of ADwD to the end of the series is a pretty lofty standard.

They were given the end point and 5/7 of the story. They started structuring their show based on this knowledge. If GRRM starts getting grumpy because he took pointless background characters (Willis and Garlan) and suddenly made them important in the last 2 books then the fault is with him -- not the showrunners.

[El Guapo]

My guess is that Willas and Garlan become very important in the war against the Ironborn in the Reach, a storyline which I am 99% sure will not be included on the tv show.

[Padraig]

If GRRM starts getting grumpy because he took pointless background characters (Willis and Garlan) and suddenly made them important in the last 2 books then the fault is with him -- not the showrunners.

Emphasis on if.

My guess is that Willas and Garlan become very important in the war against the Ironborn in the Reach, a storyline which I am 99% sure will not be included on the tv show.

I suppose this "very important" myth is going to last till we see tWoW.

[Annara Snow]

It should probably also be pointed out that any criticism from GRRM about future plots is probably very unfair to D&D. They are trying to produce a series with shifting goal posts. GRRM's work has clearly seen some shifts in tone, style, and themes as GRRM himself goes through things in his life. For D&D to have to anticipate his whims for how he wants to get from the end of ADwD to the end of the series is a pretty lofty standard.

Or maybe he expected them to simply ask him before deciding to cut characters as unimportant? That's not a pretty lofty standard.

They were given the end point and 5/7 of the story. They started structuring their show based on this knowledge. If GRRM starts getting grumpy because he took pointless background characters (Willis and Garlan) and suddenly made them important in the last 2 books then the fault is with him -- not the showrunners.

Or maybe they were never "pointless background characters" but were introduced with the purpose of playing important roles later? Just like the pointless background characters of Aeron, Euron and Victarion Greyjoy, for instance.

And are you saying that GRRM should structure his future books based on the needs of the TV show and change the story just to make things simpler for them?

[Mr Fixit]

Or maybe he expected them to simply ask him before deciding to cut characters as unimportant? That's not a pretty lofty standard.

Or maybe they were never "pointless background characters" but were introduced with the purpose of playing important roles later? Just like the pointless background characters of Aeron, Euron and Victarion Greyjoy, for instance.

And are you saying that GRRM should structure his future books based on the needs of the TV show and change the story just to make things simpler for them?

And you presume they didn't consult him because...? Or you think D&D are obliged to 100% follow Martin's instructions and wishes?

Aeron you say? Ahem... :devil:

As for your last sentence, nobody here neither says nor thinks that Martin should "structure his future books based on the needs of the TV show". But it seems you think D&D should structure the show based on the needs of tertiary characters in unpublished books.

[Annara Snow]

And you presume they didn't consult him because...? Or you think D&D are obliged to 100% follow Martin's instructions and wishes?

Um, the poster I was replaying to said that "For D&D to have to anticipate his whims for how he wants to get from the end of ADwD to the end of the series is a pretty lofty standard." I suggested that they have the easy option to ask, if they are interested - they don't need to "anticipate".

As for your last sentence, nobody here neither says nor thinks that Martin should "structure his future books based on the needs of the TV show". But it seems you think D&D should structure the show based on the needs of tertiary characters in unpublished books.

No, personally I would be satisfied if they structured the show based on the major POV characters and tried to get their characterization right, rather than tertiary characters they personally happen to like.

GRRM is the one complaining about Willas and Garlan, and since he's the one writing the books, I am going to go on a limb and assume that he knows whether they're important or not.

[Le Cygne]

Brienne a "badass chick"? Loras a "sweet little kitten"? "Big strong manly men don't cry"?

What on Earth are you talking about? Not Game of Thrones TV show, that's obvious.

On the show, Brienne got off on disemboweling a guy. In the books, her master at arms had to toughen her up and she cried when she had to butcher a pig ("By the time the butchering was done Brienne had been blind with tears"). Later, when she made her first kills, there was deep personal meaning to it ("for Jaime") and she sobbed ("The sobs that Brienne heard were all her own.")

On the show, the Hound laughed at Arya after the Beric vs. Hound fight. In the books, he cried because he was reliving being burned as a child ("Someone. Help me." He was crying. "Please.") And told Arya to kill him ("You want me dead that bad? Then do it, wolf-girl. Shove it in. It's cleaner than fire.") And no sobbing about what the Lannisters did to the pretty little bird. He'll just grunt and roll over.

[Mr Fixit]

GRRM is the one complaining about Willas and Garlan, and since he's the one writing the books, I am going to go on a limb and assume that he knows whether they're important or not.

That's just it. He isn't complaining, is he? He's pointing stuff out. May seem like nitpicking, but it's actually a pretty big difference.

[ambi76]

I'm not sure what Loras part has to be cut for good? The Dragonstone part? Even if he doesn't join the KG they could easily still do that.

Okay, now I'm getting a bit impatient. Is it really so hard to understand that the problem isn't what Loras will be doing in seasons to come, but where and when. He can't be on Dragonstone and the Shield Islands and in Higharden at the same time (and it's likely Tyrell stuff will be happening in all those places at the same time). Also, I have long made my peace with D&D caring even less about this minor character than GRRM does (they are focusing on the Tyrell ladies and sometimes I still think Loras was that character they wanted to kill off in season 2 but GRRM said no to), but I disagree that he wasn't changed significantly for that reason.

My guess is that Willas and Garlan become very important in the war against the Ironborn in the Reach, a storyline which I am 99% sure will not be included on the tv show.

A total cut of the Ironborn/Reach thing, that would surely be the easiest way out, yes. But then the Ironborn fans will be bitching about that too.

[Padraig]

Okay, now I'm getting a bit impatient. Is it really so hard to understand that the problem isn't what Loras will be doing in seasons to come, but where and when.

But surely I have answered this already?

To give more info. I was at Capclave recently. After that, there was a rash of misleading and incorrect reports about what GRRM said there. You can choose not to believe me and in fact, it may be best not to believe anything you don't hear yourself first hand or via an actual recording.

Basically, this thread is rather funny because people are debating things based on things never actually said. OTOH, its not so funny that people are attacking GRRM and D&D based on these figments of someone's imagination.

[ambi76]

But surely I have answered this already?

If you have, I missed it. I just got that Loras on Dragonstone is no problem, which I never said it would be, except for the having to cover for the other two brothers too.

Yes, GRRM did not utter the word important we get that, he did "nitpick", or whatever nomenclatur you would prefer, that cutting Garlan and Willas from the story in the show will pose problematic for their roles in future books, mentioning the "butterfly effect", though. We infer that he wouldn't have done this, if what Willas and Garlan do in the last two books will be totally inconsequential. But you're right, we'll only know for sure when those books are out.

[Dragonstoned]

Yeah you don't need to quote/misquote/twist the words of GRRM, there's enough in the show to question without having to bring up what the guy who wrote the books may or may not have said.

[Padraig]

Yes, GRRM did not utter the word important we get that, he did "nitpick", or whatever nomenclatur you would prefer, that cutting Garlan and Willas from the story in the show will pose problematic for their roles in future books, mentioning the "butterfly effect", though. We infer that he wouldn't have done this, if what Willas and Garlan do in the last two books will be totally inconsequential. But you're right, we'll only know for sure when those books are out.

Hmm. I wouldn't make that inference. Yes, GRRM was pointing out that certain characters have been cut that will continue to feature in the books. But he has also acknowledged a number of times that the cast on GoT is huge and that characters have to be cut for budget reasons.

In a perfect world, GRRM wouldn't want any of his characters dropped. But given characters do have to be dropped, Garlan and Willas could easily be two of the characters that he would also choose to drop. Now maybe he would choose somebody else instead. IIRC its not that he has ever been asked a question like "what character would you drop (that wasn't dropped) and what character would you not drop (that was dropped) if you were the showrunner". He mightn't answer that question anyhow. Too hypothetical.

But while he accepts that characters do have to be dropped, he also points out that it does have an effect on the adaptation process because they do feature in later books. And he says that D&D will have to figure those issues out. At the same time, (and this is the important point) he has never given me the impression that D&D have a serious problem to solve because of who they have cut up to now.

Indeed, some people are willing to give D&D the benefit of the doubt and say they wouldn't have cut those characters if it would cause a serious problem. But, some people aren't very willing to give D&D the benefit of the doubt. :)

If you have, I missed it. I just got that Loras on Dragonstone is no problem, which I never said it would be, except for the having to cover for the other two brothers too.

I responded in so far as I don't agree with the idea that the two brothers do anything important enough to be required.

[Dragonstoned]

A lot of this stuff is moot since we won't know until the end of the show & books how important these characters are - should they prove important it would be interesting to see if the 'D&D know the end of the story so know what they're doing' opinions change. Hoping the showrunners are right obviously.

[WinterWarrior]

I don't care what GRRM said or did not say, I am growing impatient with his inability to land this plane and finish his last two books. I think it is unfair to his fans and reading chapters piece meal at conventions is like feeding us crumbs. Reading his "not a blog" leads me to believe that he is more interested in his Santa Fe theater project, football and his sci fi works and everything else - and finishing ASoIaF has become an albatross for him. Such is the price of success.

D&D have done an excellent job and must be concerned that GRRM will not have the books ready when the HBO show finishes wiht the first five. So I think they are perfectly within their right to finish the story any way they want. That may be the only finish we ever see to the story.

As far as Garland and Willis go, I do not agree that they will be in the story against the Ironborn. None of us know what will happen but I see Marjorie being executed due to Cersei's plotting and Loras dying of his wounds. Then Garland and Willis will avenge their deaths by bringing Highgarden to the cause of either the fake Aegon or Stannis - or maybe even Dany. I think the Ironborn will not be important in the books or HBO after Victarion and Euron are defeated/killed.

But then again none of us know what will happen because GRRM will never finish the series. The best we can hope for is D&D gives us an ending that ties it all together.

[King Cheops]

But then again none of us know what will happen because GRRM will never finish the series. The best we can hope for is D&D gives us an ending that ties it all together.

Well odds are Brandon Sanderson will have to step in for another series.

But your sentiments here pretty much echo why I chimed in about GRRM being somewhat unfair about production decisions. JK Rowling made sure to keep publishing her books at a good pace so that she stayed ahead (book 7 was out around when they were doing pre-production for movie 5 or 6 I believe). Season 1 released 5 months before ADwD even hit the bookshelves. Season 2 would have already been well under way in terms of pre-production work by the time ADwD was released. 1 year into writing TWoW they were already starting pre-production on Season 3.

The show has already caught up to him and is about to surpass him likely as early as winter next year. Dude needs to flesh out his storyline ASAP if he expects the show to stay close to the books. They're leaving him in the dust.

[protar]

Providing Martin can get an early 2015 release for TWOW and an 2017/18 release for DOS he'll manage to keep either ahead of, or at the worst neck and neck with the show. If he doesn't release TWOW prior to S5 ending (Which I believe will at least partially head into Winds' material), then he's in trouble.

[Padraig]

I think it is unfair to his fans and reading chapters piece meal at conventions is like feeding us crumbs. Reading his "not a blog" leads me to believe that he is more interested in his Santa Fe theater project, football and his sci fi works and everything else - and finishing ASoIaF has become an albatross for him. Such is the price of success.

The standard approach at a literary convention is that you read something. Normally authors read from the work in progress. So yes, it is feeding us crumbs but what can he do?

As for his blog. GRRM realised a few years ago that he does himself no favours by talking about the current book he is writing. People just want to know when it will be done and he would admit himself he is a poor judge of that. Thus, he doesn't talk about the books. He can choose not to say anything but GRRM likes to talk about what interests him and so he posts about other topics. Obviously he would love to finish aSoIaF but I don't think its an albatross. It is a difficult venture but little good is easy. GRRM has always said that he doesn't enjoy writing, he enjoys having written. It is actual work. ASoIaF is not special in that regard. Its just a lot more complex than what he wrote before.

But your sentiments here pretty much echo why I chimed in about GRRM being somewhat unfair about production decisions.

Unfair doesn't come into it. He didn't force HBO to start making the series when they did. In fact, he would point out that it would be unfair on his readers if he rushed the books before he felt they were ready in order to keep ahead of the TV series.

Adapting tWoW wouldn't be a problem either, since D&D will be able to see a version of the book a lot sooner than we do (I imagine).

[Le Cygne]

JK Rowling made sure to keep publishing her books at a good pace so that she stayed ahead (book 7 was out around when they were doing pre-production for movie 5 or 6 I believe). Season 1 released 5 months before ADwD even hit the bookshelves. Season 2 would have already been well under way in terms of pre-production work by the time ADwD was released. 1 year into writing TWoW they were already starting pre-production on Season 3.

Interesting, I was wondering how she kept up. Things took a little longer all around for the last three...

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - book 1997/film 2001

Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - book 1998/film 2002

Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban - book 1999/film 2004

Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire - book 2000/film 2005

Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix - book 2003/film 2007

Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - book 2005/film 2009

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - book 2007/film 2010-11

[Mr Fixit]

Adapting tWoW wouldn't be a problem either, since D&D will be able to see a version of the book a lot sooner than we do (I imagine).

Yes. I imagine TWoW won't be a problem for the show. Even if the book isn't out by the time D&D need it, Martin will have written (and shared with the production team) enough material from all the finished and half-finished chapters. The real problem is ADoS. It's quite possible the show will have to operate without the safety net for that one. It would be a shame; ADoS is the conclusion of the entire series after all.

Of course, that's not taking into account a very real possibility of the eighth book. We've seen that Martin had to "invent" new books every step of the way. What's to say the last two will stay two? Especially considering that a largish chunk of TWoW is actually ADwD material that will need some time (and space) to properly wrap up. The eighth book could really really spell trouble for the show in more ways than one (think of extra seasons needed).