Superman and Batman

[Ser Rodrigo Belmonte]

Two out of three ain't bad.

Batman begins isn't as strong as the other two but its miles ahead of MoS.

[The BlackBear]

Really? I almost fell asleep during Begins. I liked Man of Steel, but I accept the criticism about Costner's death being stupid, and Superman's lack of hope, and the ridiculous rag-doll fight at the end. But Faora made up for it, and I thought the fight in Smallville was actually pretty good.

[Raja]

Funnily enough, for me, Begins is superior to rises and runs TDK close too.

[Rhom]

Funnily enough, for me, Begins is superior to rises and runs TDK close too.

Yeah, when I saw "two out of three" on the Batman films, my first assumption was that he was discounting TDKR.

[The BlackBear]

Begins was better than Rises, I just wasn't blown away by either. DK is pretty good, but still overrated IMO.

[Bastard of Boston]

Well, Snyder got the woman who played Faora to go through a pretty vigorous workout regime before the first Man of Steel. I'm hoping he's got the same designs with his Wonder Woman. I'm completely willing to give her a chance, but I'd love for her to have more of an imposing presence.

[WTFSalami]

Batman begins isn't as strong as the other two but its miles ahead of MoS.

Pretty sure he was talking about the awful Dark Knight Rises. I haven't heard of too many people who didn't think Batman Begins was pretty incredible.

[WTFSalami]

The worst thing to happen to Nolan's trilogy was Ledger's death and the decision to kill Two-Face off. A third movie with a street war between Two-Face and Joker with Bats stuck in the middle would have been much better than the clusterfuck of ridiculousness that was TDKR.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

You really think Superman has been "edgy" once in his entire run? Have you ever even fucking read Superman stories?

I know written sarcasm is hard to see sometimes, but I literally spelled it out: "there was one time they made Supes edgy. He came back from the dead and had a mullet for awhile. I mean character wise he remained exactly the same (honorable, heroic, kind), but he did have that mullet."

I mean even when they turned him into red Superman and blue Superman (both made out of lightning) he still acted the same...at least I think he did. I quit reading at that point.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Batman begins isn't as strong as the other two but its miles ahead of MoS.

It's weird, I hate origin stories overall, but Batman Begins was my favorite of three.

[Raja]

The worst thing to happen to Nolan's trilogy was Ledger's death and the decision to kill Two-Face off. A third movie with a street war between Two-Face and Joker with Bats stuck in the middle would have been much better than the clusterfuck of ridiculousness that was TDKR.

Two-face was a tad rushed, but his arc was complete in that film. I don't think it would have worked if that character would have stayed around for another film. Also, it ties in everything with what the Joker was about, the film was more about Dent than Batman really, at least that's how I chose to read it.

[polishgenius]

Batman Begins is the most coherent and together of the three. Plot holes and pacing flaws begin to creep in in TDK, but the relative simplicity of the plot means it's not too much and the Joker in the pack plus the best action in the series makes it the best, for me.
TDKR was just a mess. There are great things about it, but it's a film crippled by the gap between ambition and execution.

Anyway, regarding Gal Gadot as WW- I like that casting. She's got that mixture of elegance and attitude that I think WW needs. Yeah, looks-wise she is too thin, but I think it's more likely she can bulk up to fit it better than someone like Gina Carano can learn that regal poise thing.


I would have wanted Lena Headey though she was always going to be too old... cast her as Hippolyta.

[WTFSalami]

Why wouldn't it have worked? We got this fantastic Shakespearean tragedy origin story for a character who is pretty meh as far as the comics go, and that's all we got. It was set up perfectly as a side-plot to turn into the main plot for the future and it was nixed with one tumble that really wasn't that high up. That is how Harvey Dent, a man who spent most of the movie bringing hope to the city of Gotham and being a face against corruption before ultimately being consumed by hatred, THAT is how his story ends? He falls off a thing and that's it, we're done exploring the duality of man and the impact that tragedy can have on good people? There was so much left to explore and so much left to say and it just went unsaid. It's easily the most frustrating and unsatisfying thing that has ever happened in comic book movies.

Christoper Nolan had the opportunity to really turn an otherwise secondary and inconsequential character into an iconic one, and he cut the umbilical before the baby was even born.

[polishgenius]

Two-face is a secondary, inconsequential character? Since when?

[WTFSalami]

Since he was created. Inconsequential may have been the wrong word. He's never been a gigantic, game-changing character in the Batman mythos. He's an echo and reflection of Bruce Wayne's own split personality, but he's not some gigantic piece to the puzzle. He's one of those annoying puzzle pieces that have connections on all sides but could fit into too many different places for you to pay much attention to it.

The only real game-changers in Batman's gallery are Joker, Ra's al Ghul, Talia al Ghul, Bane, and the members of the Justice League, if only for the fact that it took years and massive amounts of resources and time to devise ways to defeat all of them should it ever come down to that. It's tough business, being a man amongst gods.

[Sci-2]

Man, I was just thinking they might go with the new grimdark Amazons who kidnap men and rape them to further their race.

I'd expect them stick with the classic version, but this need to make the brighter heroes match Batman's dark tone seems to be DC's new plan....even if MoS should show that doesn't lead to billion dollar box offices.

[polishgenius]

Bane is a game-changer because of one specific plotline in which Batman lost. Which was obviously hugely important for the mythos, but they could have written a different story where someone else did it and then Bane (if he existed which he obviously wouldn't) would be nothing. Unlike most of Batman's Rogues he's not particularly reflective of Batman himself in any unique way (he has the intelligence-used-for-evil thing going on but both R'as and Deathstroke, when he faces Bats, do that better). There's a reason he went down a route of diminishing returns and increasing irrelevance until Gail Simone did him the favour of extracting him from being purely a Batman villain and re-purposing in the secret six.

Whereas Two-Face isn't a titanic, implacable foe, but he is far more personally and symbolically interesting and tied-in. He's not just reflective of Batman's duality, but is a constant reminder that good can turn bad and holds extra personal importance as a former friend and ally. He's also more woven into the Gotham tapestry, and symbolic of the corruption of the city's justice system. He rarely if ever carries stories by himself, but he's a key part of the mythos and an important foe. I reckon he ties with R'as, at least, in importance to the Bat.

[WTFSalami]

Man, I was just thinking they might go with the new grimdark Amazons who kidnap men and rape them to further their race.

I'd expect them stick with the classic version, but this need to make the brighter heroes match Batman's dark tone seems to be DC's new plan....even if MoS should show that doesn't lead to billion dollar box offices.

This is why I was pretty skeptical when I heard Nolan was involved with Man of Steel. My first thought was, "Man I hope they don't turn him into Batman."

Not every comic book character is a dark character with a tragic past. I thought the attempts to turn Superman into this were ham-fisted and insulting to fans of the character, and I don't even like the character.

[WTFSalami]

Bane is a game changer because Bane IS Batman, had Batman chosen to do what the League of Assassins had asked of him. To paraphrase a line from Blade: he has all of his strengths, and none of his weaknesses. He has the same exact training as Batman had. He knows all the tricks and all the trades, and he's both physically and mentally prepared for everything Batman has to offer. The only difference is that one small part of their brains that accepts or denies what "needs" to be done.

Two-Face is one of my personal favorite Batman villains, and even though he mirrors a little bit of Bruce Wayne, he's still street level. Guys like The Joker and Bane and the al Ghuls shape Batman's entire existence (As well as the Court of Owls, which have been a surprisingly awesome addition to the mythos).

[polishgenius]

Bane is a game changer because Bane IS Batman, had Batman chosen to do what the League of Assassins had asked of him. To paraphrase a line from Blade: he has all of his strengths, and none of his weaknesses. He has the same exact training as Batman had. He knows all the tricks and all the trades, and he's both physically and mentally prepared for everything Batman has to offer. The only difference is that one small part of their brains that accepts or denies what "needs" to be done.

You're basing that assessment purely on the trilogy. Bane (in the comics) had very little to do with the League of Assassins (he did briefly replace Bruce as Ra's chosen husband for Talia, but that didn't last long. His backstory is nothing to do with the League or the Demon's Head).

He does have a little of that 'Batman but evil' thing going on, but as I said, there are other characters who do it better.