Words of Radiance Discussion (Full spoilers for WoK & WoR)

[peterbound]

The back and forth between Kaladin and Shallon was some of the stupidest shit I've read........ever. Yeah, the dialogue is atrocious in a lot of places. I love the world-building but I'm not sure it's enough to keep me going with this series, or even Sanderson in general.

I agree with you.

It's a point of pride for me to finish every thing I start. Work, Life, Movies, Music, and especially books. I've only ever walked out on one film, and I've only ever stopped reading 2 books in my entire life. Listen, I read… a lot. At least 2 - 3 books a week (that's not me bragging, I just have a lot of down time with my job, and I prefer to spend it working out, or reading), so that number is a tiny compared to the amount of books i've consumed, but I've got to tell you, this one might be number 3 in the 'quit' column. The dialog, set up, hell.. even the world building to me is super cheesy, and poorly executed. The fucking characters are horribly realized. Horribly. I actually wince during some of the conversations he's put to paper.

I guess my steady diet of 'grim dark', 'Sci fi', and 'good' authors has jaded me to schlock, or middle of the road authors. This one falls firmly in the middling section of our genre. Right up there with Brooks, Feist, and various Tie-In's. I wish he didn't get so much play. This shit sucks.

I'm going to give another 10% on my kindle. If it doesn't get any better, I'm moving on.

[aceluby]

If you're reading Sanderson expecting anything but single dimensional characters, a few cringe moments in dialog, trying too hard in that dialog (especially witty dialog, gah...), and very straightforward prose, you will be disappointed. More akin to Star Wars EU than Abercrombie or GRRM, which is great when you're looking for that kind of easy, almost brainless read, not so good if you're looking for something worth sinking your teeth into or multiple re-reads IMO.

[fionwe1987]

If you're reading Sanderson expecting anything but single dimensional characters, a few cringe moments in dialog, trying too hard in that dialog (especially witty dialog, gah...), and very straightforward prose, you will be disappointed. More akin to Star Wars EU than Abercrombie or GRRM, which is great when you're looking for that kind of easy, almost brainless read, not so good if you're looking for something worth sinking your teeth into or multiple re-reads IMO.

Agreed. There is almost no thematic development in the story. It shocked me to realize this, but barring the pedestrian "you can't murder people for convenience" kind of stuff, there really isn't anything serious being developed here. This is fluff reading, and if Tor seriously thinks this is the next big fantasy, they're just deluded.

[peterbound]

If you're reading Sanderson expecting anything but single dimensional characters, a few cringe moments in dialog, trying too hard in that dialog (especially witty dialog, gah...), and very straightforward prose, you will be disappointed. More akin to Star Wars EU than Abercrombie or GRRM, which is great when you're looking for that kind of easy, almost brainless read, not so good if you're looking for something worth sinking your teeth into or multiple re-reads IMO.

Hmm. Not sure if this was for me.

I've read all his books. I know what to expect. I just hope they would somehow get better. I was wrong. I actually think they've gotten worse. Maybe he should try and be a craftsman, and less of a workhorse.

[fionwe1987]

Hmm. Not sure if this was for me.

I've read all his books. I know what to expect. I just hope they would somehow get better. I was wrong. I actually think they've gotten worse. Maybe he should try and be a craftsman, and less of a workhorse.

Its not so much that they're worse. Its just that these flaws were less annoying in shorter works. In these huge books they just pile up. And lacking any real depth, the books are only held up by plot and worldbuilding, and those will always lose out to terrible dialogue, bad characterization, etc.

[peterbound]

Boom. Got a damnation. Guess I'll take that.

Also, why would the parshendi kill a king to halt the coming of their old gods, but have no issue with them possibly returning when trying out a new form? Seems like a plot I consistency.

[aceluby]

Hmm. Not sure if this was for me.

I've read all his books. I know what to expect. I just hope they would somehow get better. I was wrong. I actually think they've gotten worse. Maybe he should try and be a craftsman, and less of a workhorse.

If you've read all his books and know what to expect I'm not following the logic on why you'd hope this one would 'somehow get better'. These are the same flaws that people complained about in WoK and given that this has been a common thread throughout most of what he's released in the last 5 years I'm having a hard time understanding where this expectation that he should be getting better comes from.

[peterbound]

People usually grow, and get better at their chosen profession. I'm a much better fire fighter than I was 12 years ago. Surely the expectations should be the same for a person that writes/draws/dances? Any artistic endeavor. He should be able it understand his weaknesses, work in them, and improve.

This isn't the case. His weaknesses are still so glaring that it's sad to read. And off putting.

[Gabriele]

He should write less and polish more, but maybe he doesn't like editing. He has this enormous creative drive (I mean, writing short novels to take a break from long ones, seriously :) ) and wants to share all the fun stuff in his mind with his readers. And he started out rising so fast he never really learned to edit, except maybe for the WoT books where he had to make sure stuff fit with the existing novels. Not sure if the lack of editing will bite him in the back some time - it certainly doesn't hurt the sales of other not very well written books.

It is a pity, though, because there's quite a lot I like about the Stormlight Archives. I wish it would be great instead of just a fun beach read.

[emberling]

He's talked quite a bit about his writing process in various places online, and it sounds like he edits a lot, at least compared to other commercial fiction writers. It's very likely that he's not very good at it, though. Take something like this:

"Unlike Dalinar, Jasnah drew stares. Like flies to rotten meat those eyes were, constantly following her. Whispers like buzzing wings."

Awful. But it looks to me like a perfectly acceptable passage that has been maimed by an intruding "those eyes were". It's easy to imagine it drafted without those three words, then someone in the editing process (Sanderson, his editor, a beta reader) flagging it as ambiguous or lacking an antecedent, and then zooming through fixing all such flagged problems, rushing, rushing, it's a very big book after all - and not paying enough attention to whether the cures are worse than the disease.

Might be interesting to compare the final version of the Rysn chapter to the first draft that he livestreamed. Or if there's still an early version of Warbreaker floating around somewhere, maybe.

There can be no excuses for the abomination that is Lift, though.

[Gabriele]

Looks like Yoda is his editor. :D

[AverageGuy]

"Unlike Dalinar, Jasnah drew stares. Like flies to rotten meat those eyes were, constantly following her. Whispers like buzzing wings."

Awful. But it looks to me like a perfectly acceptable passage that has been maimed by an intruding "those eyes were".

I don't think it's necessarily intruding. The simile's being made not directly to the eyes themselves but to how they follow her (i.e., "Those eyes followed her like flies follow rotten meat," not, "Those eyes were like flies to rotten meat, those eyes were following her").

It looks like a misplaced comma to me more than anything, which may have been missed during copyedit due to the way the verb is split. "Like flies to rotten meat, those eyes were constantly following her." The simile, then the actual description. Still not the greatest line ever, but at least it's not the Yoda effect.

[Ser Jake]

So I've heard a lot of good things about Way of Kings, and I was just looking on eBay to see if I could pick up a cheap copy of Words of Radiance (just to have a first edition copy when I'm ready to read it) and I have one question… what in the FUCK is the deal with Brandon Sanderson's signature? There is nothing that remotely resembles a B or an S, it's really strange.

[harry_dresden]

I finished it, and gave 4/5 stars on goodreads.

I don't get the hate for Sanderson here. Sure his dialogue(and I agree his witty characters aren't really witty) but I don't see him worse than Robert Jordan who is even more cringeworthy in a lot of ways.

His writing is good enough for me.

I don't need to read fantasy for anything other then "fluff"

[Captain Goatf*cker]

I finished it, and gave 4/5 stars on goodreads.

I don't get the hate for Sanderson here. Sure his dialogue(and I agree his witty characters aren't really witty) but I don't see him worse than Robert Jordan who is even more cringeworthy in a lot of ways.

His writing is good enough for me.

I don't need to read fantasy for anything other then "fluff"

If he'd just steer clear of his attempts at humor, I would probably enjoy his stuff. I don't require great prose but I can't stomach childish humor. When he has Shallan make some stupid attempt at wit, then have another character comment on how witty she is, it makes me want to quit. Bridge 4's interactions are likewise annoying as hell. I'm still in there as of now, having already listened to 27 hrs out of the 48. Also, Kate Reading and Micheal Kramer make his already shit jokes sound so much worse. And both have some terrible accents - especially the horneater one.

I'v listened to everything he's written and have enjoyed, for the most part, his other stuff (except Steelheart). I'm not sure if I just didn't notice his corny humor before or if, this being his Magnum Opus, he's just laying it on thick now.

[C0bR]

Kaladin telling Shallan that she tries to hard to be witty was one of my favorite parts.

But then he succumbed to the madness too.

I actually started to hate the word "witty"

[YellowDogJen]

I had a great time with WOR! It was a real page-turner for me. Yes, some of the writing is clunky, but I thought it was a big improvement on Mistborn. And yes, some dialogue is really hokey, but I'll admit to chuckling several times - it was funny!

Super-hero Kaladin was a little much. I was surprised that Pattern and Syl are sentient talking weapons but alright.

I liked Lift. She was awesome.

[peterbound]

So, the majority opinion is that 85% of what makes a book good is really bad in this one, but we let it slide because he's kinda ok at world building and magic system? Seems a little silly.

[emberling]

So, the majority opinion is that 85% of what makes a book good is really bad in this one, but we let it slide because he's kinda ok at world building and magic system? Seems a little silly.

Seems a little silly to expect other people to conform to your idea of "what makes a book good."

Seems to me that "what makes a book good" is divided like so:

100%: how much you enjoy reading the book, thinking about the book, or discussing the book (in earnest, not in mockery)

0%: everything else

Good prose and complex characterization are means, not ends. And this is not really bad, not by a long shot. If you pick out the worst bits - some of those are pretty bad. But plenty of other books are even worse cover to cover, so...

[Argonath Diver]

That Lift interlude (Gods, there's probably another one yet, I still have a few hundred pages left) was just shockingly terrible. I was groaning and wincing as if I was having thorns dug out of my back (think Mark Lawrence Jorg-thorn level pain). I tried skipping parts, but it seemed I might miss some more hints as to how Radiants work, so I slogged through. Maybe having a nine year old who thinks like a valley girl as an interlude PoV wasn't the best idea a fantasy author has had?

I agree with the comparison to Star Wars EU to some respect. I am pretty much entirely reading to see what happens at this point. Just enjoying the plot unfolding, and letting awkward character vocabularies and stilted conversation slide off into the turned pages. I am curious to see what major development is coming up - likely before the end of this book - that will require 8000 more pages of text to resolve. At this point it seems like one more mega-book could wrap up the current people finally figuring out how to be Awesome (gag) and going up against the Big Baddie and his newly-revealed minions.