R+L=J v. 56

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I still don't see any difference between a man who takes two wives and a woman who agrees to marry a man who is already married to someone else. They are both participating in bigamy. If Lyanna would do it, why wouldn't Eddard think it was okay?

No. The lying started when he broke his promise to Ashara by marrying Catelyn. He married Catelyn after the Battle of the Bells, so it was probably just a few weeks before the Battle of the Trident. Jon was born right around the time of the Battle of the Trident or a few weeks after that. In other words, the lying started right around the time Jon was born.

A brush up on the timeline perhaps?

Following the Citadel description of the events at Stoney Sept we have:

All of these events likely took place not much more than within four or five months after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark. Retiring to Riverrun [...] Following this there seems to be a great, lengthy undocumented period before the Battle of the Trident. This period may have lasted as many as seven months

http://www.westeros....berts_Rebellion

Certainly more than a few weeks, and plenty of time for R+L's child to gestate

Sure, it happens all the time in real life.

And it has to be what happened here, whoever Jon Snow's mother was, because Robb Stark was conceived around the same time as Jon was born.

Robb was conceived some time after the Battle of the Bells. So unless the Battle of the Bells was nine or ten months before the Sack of King's Landing, Jon Snow is older than Robb and he was conceived before Eddard married Catelyn.

And, according to Jaime Lannister, the Battle of the Bells probably took place just a few weeks before the Sack of King's Landing, which is around the time Jon was born. This is because Jaime tells us exactly what happened right after the Battle of the Bells. Connington was exiled, Selmy and Darry were sent to Stony Sept to collect Connington's army, Lewyn Martell met the Dornish army that was somewhere between Storm's End and King's Landing, Rhaegar returned from the South, and Aerys started stashing wildfire all over King's Landing. While all of this was happening ("My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see"), Lord Chelsted noticed, confronted Aerys, resigned and was burned. Less than 2 weeks later, King's Landing was sacked and Jon Snow was born. So unless it took Selmy and Darry 9-10 months to find Connington's army, or unless Aerys kept Connington's army and Lewyn's army hanging around King's Landing for that long before riding out to meet the rebels, this all happened in just a few weeks.

Where does Jaime say this? In the passage from ASoS (which I quoted in its entirety in v.55) he gives a sequence of events but no actual elapsed time is mentioned. The part in between the Battle of the Bells and Rhaegar departing for the Trident (raven to Tywin, wildfire plot buildup, marshaling of troops and burning of Chelsted) can reasonably be expected to have taken many months (see Citadel entry above)

Finally- have you ever compared a nine month old to a newborn??

There is simply no way Catelyn or any person would ever accept that a 9+ month old was younger than a newborn. It's a preposterous suggestion and surely even GRRM can be trusted with that detail. If there's any doubt about the age difference, it's a matter of weeks, not nine full months as you suggest.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

A brush up on the timeline perhaps?

Following the Citadel description of the events at Stoney Sept we have:

http://www.westeros....berts_Rebellion

Certainly more than a few weeks, and plenty of time for R+L's child to gestate

Where does Jaime say this? In the passage from ASoS (which I quoted in its entirety in v.55) he gives a sequence of events but no actual elapsed time is mentioned. The part in between the Battle of the Bells and Rhaegar departing for the Trident (raven to Tywin, wildfire plot buildup, marshaling of troops and burning of Chelsted) can reasonably be expected to have taken many months (see Citadel entry above)

If Lyanna conceived by Rhaegar after the Battle of the Bells, this means that Hightower showed up at the Tower of Joy and told her that her father and brother had been murdered by Aerys and that her brother and her fiance were in open rebellion; Rhaegar left to go try to kill Eddard and Robert; and she just stayed there without trying to contact anyone on the outside for another eight or nine months. That is incredible! The only reason she would stay at the Tower of Joy after Hightower arrived with that news would be if she was heavily pregnant and could not leave.

Finally- have you ever compared a nine month old to a newborn??

There is simply no way Catelyn or any person would ever accept that a 9+ month old was younger than a newborn. It's a preposterous suggestion and surely even GRRM can be trusted with that detail. If there's any doubt about the age difference, it's a matter of weeks, not nine full months as you suggest.

She never saw Robb and Jon together when Robb was a newborn. If she first saw them together at 20 months and 28 months this would not be a problem. Especially since she probably did not spend very much time with Jon when he was small. She never even said his name until he was almost 15.

[MtnLion]

She never saw Robb and Jon together when Robb was a newborn. If she first saw them together at 20 months and 28 months this would not be a problem. Especially since she probably did not spend very much time with Jon when he was small. She never even said his name until he was almost 15.

Upon his return from the war, Catelyn greeted Ned with an infant Robb, and all returned to Winterfell, where Ned would rule as Lord and Robb was to be raised as his heir.

How long do you think that it was between the Battle of the Bells and when Catelyn returned to Winterfell with an infant son? How long did the war last for Catelyn? Honestly, condensing the timeline in one area and stretching it like it is silly putty in another is just plain funny. ;)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

If Lyanna conceived by Rhaegar after the Battle of the Bells, this means that Hightower showed up at the Tower of Joy and told her that her father and brother had been murdered by Aerys and that her brother and her fiance were in open rebellion; Rhaegar left to go try to kill Eddard and Robert; and she just stayed there without trying to contact anyone on the outside for another eight or nine months. That is incredible! The only reason she would stay at the Tower of Joy after Hightower arrived with that news would be if she was heavily pregnant and could not leave.

She never saw Robb and Jon together when Robb was a newborn. If she first saw them together at 20 months and 28 months this would not be a problem. Especially since she probably did not spend very much time with Jon when he was small. She never even said his name until he was almost 15.

I'm sorry you find it incredible, but that is what is suggested in the text, as recorded by Elio (Ran) the author of the World Book.

As for the second- where do you get this information? 20 and 28 months? Not supported by the text at all. And for the record- a difference of 9 months between children is apparent physically throughout early childhood and developmentally up until puberty. With all due respect, you must not have any of your own or you would never make this claim with a straight face.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

:agree: And I share Lady Gwynhyfvar's suspicions, Elia is the key to unravel R+L three P's tangle: politics, passion, prophecy.

Seconded. Is it too controversial (oh seven hells - this is going to cause a backlash ;)) to suggest (as was being hinted at towards the end of the last R+L=J thread) that Elia may not have been quite as complacent as we have been led to believe?

Taking Lady Gwynhyfvar's analogy of Morgan Le Fay - Lancelot - Arthur - Guinevere a step further, could it even be that Elia betrayed Rhaegar by having (drum roll please...) an affair of her own??

Could this be in keeping with the tale of Lancelot sleeping with Guinevere behind Arthur's back - as well as Aemon the Dragonknight supposedly being in love with his sister, Queen Naerys?

Using this analogy, could she have had a relationship or even just mere feelings for Arthur Dayne? (I don't have a quote to hand but I have heard several other posters state that GRRM has hinted that we will learn more of Arthur Dayne in the coming books, and apparently he may not have been as perfect as first imagined...)

Okay, I know that his will cause a lot of controversy but I struggle to accept the current image of Elia as submissive and meek, quietly subdued to her husband's own wants and desires. Almost the epitome of conventional femininity if you will.

I would rather have learnt that she was a feisty, independent woman who could more than hold her own, rather than have her be some sort of sacrificial lamb, who pays the ultimate price for her husband's folly - there must have been more to her than that surely.

Of course, I have no evidence for this theory, I acknowledge that it is just mere speculation on my part, but I do think that it's possible.

ETA: Should probably have brought this much earlier on in the thread, but only just found the thread now, already on the 9th page!

[Alia of the knife]

Seconded. Is it too controversial (oh seven hells - this is going to cause a backlash ;)) to suggest (as was being hinted at towards the end of the last R+L=J thread) that Elia may not have been quite as complacent as we have been led to believe?

Taking Lady Gwynhyfvar's analogy of Morgan Le Fay - Lancelot - Arthur - Guinevere a step further, could it even be that Elia betrayed Rhaegar by having (drum roll please...) an affair of her own??

Could this be in keeping with the tale of Lancelot sleeping with Guinevere behind Arthur's back - as well as Aemon the Dragonknight supposedly being in love with his sister, Queen Naerys?

Using this analogy, could she have had a relationship or even just mere feelings for Arthur Dayne? (I don't have a quote to hand but I have heard several other posters state that GRRM has hinted that we will learn more of Arthur Dayne in the coming books, and apparently he may not have been as perfect as first imagined...)

Okay, I know that his will cause a lot of controversy but I struggle to accept the current image of Elia as submissive and meek, quietly subdued to her husband's own wants and desires. Almost the epitome of conventional femininity if you will.

I would rather have learnt that she was a feisty, independent woman who could more than hold her own, rather than have her be some sort of sacrificial lamb, who pays the ultimate price for her husband's folly - there must have been more to her than that surely.

Of course, I have no evidence for this theory, I acknowledge that it is just mere speculation on my part, but I do think that it's possible.

ETA: Should probably have brought this much earlier on in the thread, but only just found the thread now, already on the 9th page!

Agree as well on Elia.

For me to try and puzzle out where Martin goes is to understand his own love of history and the classics, particularly the classics that he likely grew up on like the Arthurian legends, Ivanhoe, and even Lorna Doone where in that story, the hidden "heir" was an "heiress. (The actor who plays Maester Aemon played Sir Ensor Doone in the BBC production).

Martin I think is very much a romantic, but a realistic one. He was most famous for his "Beauty and the Beast" series back in the eighties, so it's not surprising to see the same themes with Sansa and the Hound, as well as Sansa and Tyrion.

And with Elia, it was said she was known for her wit, and great wit is often accompanied by a great mind. Her strong mind may have been her greatest asset of all against the back drop of a weak body, which that itsy bit makes me think that Aegon is perhaps alive somewhere- but by Elia's clever machinations.

[Alia of the knife]

Agree as well on Elia.

For me to try and puzzle out where Martin goes is to understand his own love of history and the classics, particularly the classics that he likely grew up on like the Arthurian legends, Ivanhoe, and even Lorna Doone, where in that story, the hidden "heir" was an "heiress. (The actor who plays Maester Aemon played Sir Ensor Doone in the BBC production).

Martin I think is very much a romantic, but a realistic one. He was most famous for his "Beauty and the Beast" series back in the eighties, so it's not surprising to see the same themes with Sansa and the Hound, as well as Sansa and Tyrion.

And with Elia, it was said she was known for her wit, and great wit is often accompanied by a great mind. Her strong mind may have been her greatest asset of all against the back drop of a weak body, which that itsy bit makes me think that Aegon is perhaps alive somewhere- but by Elia's clever machinations.

[Alia of the knife]

Have you read a single word about Eddard?

This is your evidence? Rickard's Southern ambition. It would be the same if I would tell that Rickard planned to marry Ned to Cersei? Following this fallible logic, no one could defy it. But, simply it isn't suggested by anything in the books

Actually, no. There is difference between inventing scenarios, what you did, and drawing conclusions based on text what most of us does.

I've been waiting to ask you a question regarding Benjen, but didn't want to interrupt your dialogue.

You know I'm a great admirer of your work on the Animals Project, and just wanted to get your opinion on what kind of "wolf" Benjen may have been.

Brandon was the Alpha, Lyanna an Alpha, and Ned a Beta.

But, there was something in the adult Benjens tone when he was speaking to Jon about how it was a good thing he wasn't Jons "father" that made me think that Benjen might have taken a different approach to Jons birthright than Ned- as in fight for it, or at least that was my reading between the lines.

I wonder if it could have been in the Stark dynamics that Ned was the anomaly, and we actually are not getting a true "read" of the Stark culture?

[brew]

I've always wondered if Ned was more Jon's son than Rickard's. Maybe it's just me but Ned always struck me as standing out from the rest of the family who I always imagined were a little bit cruel and ruthless when it came down to it. Not quite on Tywin's level, but much more vicious and uh wolfish I suppose than Ned ever came across as being. Seems like it would fit with the Winter king motif and all that, a harsh land for a harsh people and so on.

[Stannis Lives]

Seconded. Is it too controversial (oh seven hells - this is going to cause a backlash ;)) to suggest (as was being hinted at towards the end of the last R+L=J thread) that Elia may not have been quite as complacent as we have been led to believe?

Taking Lady Gwynhyfvar's analogy of Morgan Le Fay - Lancelot - Arthur - Guinevere a step further, could it even be that Elia betrayed Rhaegar by having (drum roll please...) an affair of her own??

Could this be in keeping with the tale of Lancelot sleeping with Guinevere behind Arthur's back - as well as Aemon the Dragonknight supposedly being in love with his sister, Queen Naerys?

Using this analogy, could she have had a relationship or even just mere feelings for Arthur Dayne? (I don't have a quote to hand but I have heard several other posters state that GRRM has hinted that we will learn more of Arthur Dayne in the coming books, and apparently he may not have been as perfect as first imagined...)

Okay, I know that his will cause a lot of controversy but I struggle to accept the current image of Elia as submissive and meek, quietly subdued to her husband's own wants and desires. Almost the epitome of conventional femininity if you will.

I would rather have learnt that she was a feisty, independent woman who could more than hold her own, rather than have her be some sort of sacrificial lamb, who pays the ultimate price for her husband's folly - there must have been more to her than that surely.

Of course, I have no evidence for this theory, I acknowledge that it is just mere speculation on my part, but I do think that it's possible.

ETA: Should probably have brought this much earlier on in the thread, but only just found the thread now, already on the 9th page!

ha. I knew we would come back to Elia and her role in the rhaegar conspiracy to overthrow aerys. Elia is certainly not what she appears and neither is Dorne. They are all part of the R+L=J Grand Conspiracy to remove aerys from the throne and bring about tptwp to save the realm of men.

[Ygrain]

ha. I knew we would come back to Elia and her role in the rhaegar conspiracy to overthrow aerys. Elia is certainly not what she appears and neither is Dorne. They are all part of the R+L=J Grand Conspiracy to remove aerys from the throne and bring about tptwp to save the realm of men.

A while ago, we were discussing the alternative that it was Elia herself who reminded Rhaegar of the old polygamy :-)

[Stannis Lives]

A while ago, we were discussing the alternative that it was Elia herself who reminded Rhaegar of the old polygamy :-)

i think this is such a fascinating theory. It has completely changed my perspective on the entire occurrence at ToJ. Can't wait to see how it unfolds.

[Mladen]

You know I'm a great admirer of your work on the Animals Project, and just wanted to get your opinion on what kind of "wolf" Benjen may have been.

Brandon was the Alpha, Lyanna an Alpha, and Ned a Beta.

Thanks, dear. Benjen in that pack was just as described - wolf pup. I think entire thing happened without him playing any influence. Although I suspected once whether he was with Lyanna at the time of kidnapping/running away. I doubt she would be left on her own by her father to travel or to stay anywhere. Call it a crackpot for there is no textual evidence, but what if Benjen was around Lyanna when she escaped/was kidnapped and he was the one that informed his father upon return to Winterfell? Perhaps it was his father's wish for him to go to NW...

I wonder if it could have been in the Stark dynamics that Ned was the anomaly, and we actually are not getting a true "read" of the Stark culture?

Ned was an anomaly due to not being raised with Starks, but he remains wolf. Only different type. I strongly disagree with Ned's POV in which Brandon, Lyanna and Arya got the wolf blood, as the token of wilderness. This simplification of wolf's nature is quite common among the characters where wolves are represented as wild animals, but on the deeper plain, Martin draws significant parallels between classic wolf behavior and those that are not 'wild' per say, like Robb's struggle with pack position, Sansa's entire arc and of course, Ned. From Ned, we are not getting the vibe of old Kings in the North, but my theory is that those were direwolves and Starks as Wardens were always just tamer version of their forefathers - common grey wolf. On the other hand, Wylla's story from ADWD is wonderful representation of the nurturing side of that wolf blood, and it is wonderful juxtapositioned to the idea of wilderness of Starks.

A while ago, we were discussing the alternative that it was Elia herself who reminded Rhaegar of the old polygamy :-)

Don't ask me why, but I actually believe that. Call it a huntch, but I have strong feeling that Rhaegar and Elia were in this together since the very beginning. The fact she knew about prophecy, respectful but loveless marriage that sounds more like partnership, and lack of strong emotional reaction to events of Harrenhall that would be expected of wife, with comparison to Doran, all indicates that Elia wasn't as nearly as tragic as represented. I could be totally wrong, and I am sceptic to that idea, but who, other than GRRM can tell?

[finger]

I've been waiting to ask you a question regarding Benjen, but didn't want to interrupt your dialogue.

You know I'm a great admirer of your work on the Animals Project, and just wanted to get your opinion on what kind of "wolf" Benjen may have been.

Brandon was the Alpha, Lyanna an Alpha, and Ned a Beta.

But, there was something in the adult Benjens tone when he was speaking to Jon about how it was a good thing he wasn't Jons "father" that made me think that Benjen might have taken a different approach to Jons birthright than Ned- as in fight for it, or at least that was my reading between the lines.

I wonder if it could have been in the Stark dynamics that Ned was the anomaly, and we actually are not getting a true "read" of the Stark culture?

IIRC, Benjen said something like he was sorry for not being Jon's father.

It was somewhat surprising, perhaps kind a red herring. It could mean that Benjen rooted Jon's mother, pointing to Ashara, for instance.

In fact, he was fond of Jon's mother, but not in that sense.

I think that Benjen just missed to father a son, that he couldn't because of his vows.

[WhiteOwl18]

Don't ask me why, but I actually believe that. Call it a huntch, but I have strong feeling that Rhaegar and Elia were in this together since the very beginning. The fact she knew about prophecy, respectful but loveless marriage that sounds more like partnership, and lack of strong emotional reaction to events of Harrenhall that would be expected of wife, with comparison to Doran, all indicates that Elia wasn't as nearly as tragic as represented. I could be totally wrong, and I am sceptic to that idea, but who, other than GRRM can tell?

:agree: I think that is a very likely scenario as well!

[Jory Cassel]

IIRC, Benjen said something like he was sorry for not being Jon's father.

It was somewhat surprising, perhaps kind a red herring. It could mean that Benjen rooted Jon's mother, pointing to Ashara, for instance.

In fact, he was fond of Jon's mother, but not in that sense.

I think that Benjen just missed to father a son, that he couldn't because of his vows.

I'm completely with Alia on this, the whole conversation between the two resolves about the things that have to be given up when joining the Night's Watch; the possibility to marry, to father children and any claims to lands and titles, the latter being the salient point.

Benjen pointing out that it's a "pity" when Jon throws at him that he's not his son does not exactly seem like longing to father children to me, especially taking into account that Benjen tells Jon that he does not know "what he is giving up" (paraphrasing), this whole passage appears in a different light when supposing that Benjen is in on Jon's parentage and could well mean that Benjen would've tried or severely considered enforcing Jon's birthright; the Iron Throne.

Your approach is not impossible, especially considering that it's very likely that many men of the Night's Watch miss the possibility to father children, anyway, I just don't think it's the likeliest possibility in the given context.

[FrozenFire3]

But, there was something in the adult Benjens tone when he was speaking to Jon about how it was a good thing he wasn't Jons "father" that made me think that Benjen might have taken a different approach to Jons birthright than Ned- as in fight for it, or at least that was my reading between the lines.

Benjen and Elia are the narrative focal points (northern and southern) around which R+L elliptical orbit develops. They are most elusive though. And for us this is both an interpretive problem and the clue to their centrality. We can all agree there's much more to them than meets the eye.

And to follow up on stories-within-stories and parallels:

Ygrittes reaction to the war songs:

"There were tears on Ygrittes cheeks when the song ended."

"Why were you weeping?" Jon asked. "It was only a song. There are hundreds of giants, I've just seen them."

"Oh hundreds, " she said furiously. "You know nothing, Jon Snow. ......(aSoS, pg. 175 hardcover edition).

I get the feeling if she'd had a cup of wine, she would have dumped it on his head.

And then in the afterglow of Jon and Ygritte:

Jon: "Was this how it was with his father?, he wondered. "Was he as weak as I am, when he dishonored himself in my mothers bed?" (aSoS, pg. 297, hardcover edition).

He's thinking of Ned, but in light of Rhaegars honor, could it also not be a "back shadowing" of Rhaegars conflicts in loving and marrying Lyanna in the context of oath breaking to Elia?

Absolutely. And the guilt trip continues with the following passage:

He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he'd left Jon's mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I'm pledged to the Night's watch.

It's a parallel running on 3 planes: his father leaving his mother (Ned's leaving his mysterious lover somewhere in the south, Rhaegar leaving Lyanna in the southern tower and Jon leaving Ygritte south of the Wall) to return to his duties (the Lady of the Trident in Ned's case, the battle of the Trident in Rhaegar's case, the battle of the Wall in Jon's case). Duty clashing against love in all 3 cases, as Maester Aemon's warned. And tearing hearts and lives apart.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Loving the Elia parts you have discussed in here.

It sure explains why the Martells have not decided to drop out of the 7K after the supposed insult by Rhaegar, but why they are still trying to sell more of their kids to Targaryens headed for the throne, the entire opposite of you might expect they'd do.

It would be funny if the only taker is Aegon, the Blackfyre pretender who won't stay king for long. (I say 'funny' because those Martells are sure throne greedy.)

Edit: Now that I think of it, is there a possible Elia Martell/Arthur Dayne hint in Arianne Martell/Gerold Dayne?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Seconded. Is it too controversial (oh seven hells - this is going to cause a backlash ;)) to suggest (as was being hinted at towards the end of the last R+L=J thread) that Elia may not have been quite as complacent as we have been led to believe?

Taking Lady Gwynhyfvar's analogy of Morgan Le Fay - Lancelot - Arthur - Guinevere a step further, could it even be that Elia betrayed Rhaegar by having (drum roll please...) an affair of her own??

Could this be in keeping with the tale of Lancelot sleeping with Guinevere behind Arthur's back - as well as Aemon the Dragonknight supposedly being in love with his sister, Queen Naerys?

Using this analogy, could she have had a relationship or even just mere feelings for Arthur Dayne? (I don't have a quote to hand but I have heard several other posters state that GRRM has hinted that we will learn more of Arthur Dayne in the coming books, and apparently he may not have been as perfect as first imagined...)

Okay, I know that his will cause a lot of controversy but I struggle to accept the current image of Elia as submissive and meek, quietly subdued to her husband's own wants and desires. Almost the epitome of conventional femininity if you will.

I would rather have learnt that she was a feisty, independent woman who could more than hold her own, rather than have her be some sort of sacrificial lamb, who pays the ultimate price for her husband's folly - there must have been more to her than that surely.

Of course, I have no evidence for this theory, I acknowledge that it is just mere speculation on my part, but I do think that it's possible.

ETA: Should probably have brought this much earlier on in the thread, but only just found the thread now, already on the 9th page!

These are good points (Aemon and Naerys is a perfect in story Queen-First Knight parallel) though of course we have to tread very carefully around what we know and what is speculation. We have discussed these parallels in greater depth here if you're interested. I feel like it's important to remember that the Gwenhyfvar-Lancelot affair was not consummated in all of the Arthurian tales, with some versions just leaving it as a tragic love story (a la the likely Aemon-Naerys tale) It was suggested in that thread by none other than our Alia that perhaps Elia and Arthur Dayne "knew" each other prior to her marriage to Rhaegar, as she was in her 20s before that took place. Much food for thought anyway :)

Thanks Don't ask me why, but I actually believe that. Call it a huntch, but I have strong feeling that Rhaegar and Elia were in this together since the very beginning. The fact she knew about prophecy, respectful but loveless marriage that sounds more like partnership, and lack of strong emotional reaction to events of Harrenhall that would be expected of wife, with comparison to Doran, all indicates that Elia wasn't as nearly as tragic as represented. I could be totally wrong, and I am sceptic to that idea, but who, other than GRRM can tell?

You're quite right that there's something missing in our knowledge about Elia's reaction to the entire thing. As I noted upthread (or previous thread? I lose track, lol) we have not enough evidence to really make an assessment but enough tantalizing hints to put Elia's motivations in question and leave a number of intriguing possibilities on the table.

Loving the Elia parts you have discussed in here.

It sure explains why the Martells have not decided to drop out of the 7K after the supposed insult by Rhaegar, but why they are still trying to sell more of their kids to Targaryens headed for the throne, the entire opposite of you might expect they'd do.

It would be funny if the only taker is Aegon, the Blackfyre pretender who won't stay king for long. (I say 'funny' because those Martells are sure throne greedy.)

Edit: Now that I think of it, is there a possible Elia Martell/Arthur Dayne hint in Arianne Martell/Gerold Dayne?

I wouldn't be surprised at all! If you'd like to see a fascinating crackpot regarding three of those characters, follow the link above and peruse some of the comments on the third page of the thread ;)

[Alia of the knife]

Thanks, dear. Benjen in that pack was just as described - wolf pup. I think entire thing happened without him playing any influence. Although I suspected once whether he was with Lyanna at the time of kidnapping/running away. I doubt she would be left on her own by her father to travel or to stay anywhere. Call it a crackpot for there is no textual evidence, but what if Benjen was around Lyanna when she escaped/was kidnapped and he was the one that informed his father upon return to Winterfell? Perhaps it was his father's wish for him to go to NW...

Ned was an anomaly due to not being raised with Starks, but he remains wolf. Only different type. I strongly disagree with Ned's POV in which Brandon, Lyanna and Arya got the wolf blood, as the token of wilderness. This simplification of wolf's nature is quite common among the characters where wolves are represented as wild animals, but on the deeper plain, Martin draws significant parallels between classic wolf behavior and those that are not 'wild' per say, like Robb's struggle with pack position, Sansa's entire arc and of course, Ned. From Ned, we are not getting the vibe of old Kings in the North, but my theory is that those were direwolves and Starks as Wardens were always just tamer version of their forefathers - common grey wolf. On the other hand, Wylla's story from ADWD is wonderful representation of the nurturing side of that wolf blood, and it is wonderful juxtapositioned to the idea of wilderness of Starks.

Don't ask me why, but I actually believe that. Call it a huntch, but I have strong feeling that Rhaegar and Elia were in this together since the very beginning. The fact she knew about prophecy, respectful but loveless marriage that sounds more like partnership, and lack of strong emotional reaction to events of Harrenhall that would be expected of wife, with comparison to Doran, all indicates that Elia wasn't as nearly as tragic as represented. I could be totally wrong, and I am sceptic to that idea, but who, other than GRRM can tell?

Thanks Mladen :bowdown:

Benjen and Elia are the narrative focal points (northern and southern) around which R+L elliptical orbit develops. They are most elusive though. And for us this is both an interpretive problem and the clue to their centrality. We can all agree there's much more to them than meets the eye.

Absolutely. And the guilt trip continues with the following passage:

It's a parallel running on 3 planes: his father leaving his mother (Ned's leaving his mysterious lover somewhere in the south, Rhaegar leaving Lyanna in the southern tower and Jon leaving Ygritte south of the Wall) to return to his duties (the Lady of the Trident in Ned's case, the battle of the Trident in Rhaegar's case, the battle of the Wall in Jon's case). Duty clashing against love in all 3 cases, as Maester Aemon's warned. And tearing hearts and lives apart.

Awesome as always Frozenfire3, and great points to think about.

The themes of duty are always the loneliest and poignant to me in terms of the isolation it suggests, and why I'm always drawn to Elizabeth Tudors famous quote, (paraphrasing), of how a crown is lovely to look upon, but not so lovely to bear.