Shouldn't everyone have the right to die?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

recognizes a cause of action for someone who accidentally interferes with a person's right to die.

rare as it is, there are a couple places that recognize wrongful life claims.

but once it is declared a fundamental right, which way will the law go?

there would be qualified immunity from civil rights suits against interferers with the right to self-terminate, sure. and state negligence claims would have the normal roll call of defenses. state legislatures could immunize good faith interferers from same by statute, though the federal rights would still be active, of course.

Of course, you don't have to immunize against all good faith interferers. Potentially just those acting without negligence (which, wouldn't really be an issue anyway, since you are allowed to non-negligently injure someone) and perhaps extending it to those who are negligent. I don't see any reason to need to immunize those who violate someone's right to die by acting recklessly or with knowledge or intent. Those people should be subject to legal remedies.

[scotcat]

This is always going to be a divisive issue.

While I've never been supportive of those who commit/try to commit suicide, I've always been of the opinion that it should be up to the individual when their life comes to an end. That said, there is a difference between someone choosing to swallow a bottle of pills/slit their wrists/etc and someone wanting to die because they are terminally ill and their quality of life is zero.

[Seli]

It is an interesting discussion with lots of levels that are probably best treated separately.

...

On the other hand, "active" euthanasia comes into play where a competent individual is NOT at imminent risk of death and does not presently require any active life-sustaining treatment (e.g. mechanical ventilation, surgery), but desires death NOW to avoid future pain, dependence, or incapacity as the result of a progressive disease process. This is currently illegal ("assisted suicide") in most of North America; in Oregon, patients can be prescribed lethal drugs, but they must be able to administer them on their own. An even more controversial concept of active euthanasia would see physicians administering lethal drugs for patients unable to do so on their own.

Personally, I consider the latter form of active euthanasia absolutely unethical and also generally unnecessary (we can always treat symptoms with palliative sedation). In the former, I am somewhat less decided, but I still consider it unethical. We would be far better served by the better provision of palliative and end-of-life care.

...

Personally I am happy in the Netherlands we don't have to force people to live through the last few weeks of their quickly deteriorating life if they don't want to. And I am happy some of our physicians are willing to help them, and others are willing to get out of the way. I am also happy the systems in place to make sure euthanasia is always on request of the patient do seem to work.

[The Iceman of the North]

Scot, just to show how ridiculous your concerns are, could you come up with a single case where a medical professional have been sued for disobeying a DNR order when they were not aware of such an order?

No matter what rights to die have been established, when someone comes across somebody in mortal danger, the first order of business would be to do everything they can to rescue that person. You could claim that a "right to die" have been violated if the attempts at rescue continues after the person in danger have made it clear that the attempts are unwanted, but that should not prevent anyone from offering help in the first place.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Iceman,

The US treats violations of fundamental rights rather seriously. As such I raise my concerns very specifically about making the "right to die" a fundamental civil right. Assisted suicide could be made legal without making death a fundamental civil right.

Until the right to die is treated as a fundamental civil right I would not expect there to be litigation over a violation of that right. My concern is prospective not as to an existing problem.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I'll just quote Al Sweargengen on this:

Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.

Same can apply to women, obviously. I work in a hospital and interact with terminally ill people on an almost daily basis. Most of them will die from their various diseases and ailments, but some of them won't, even if they think - right now - that they want to. Suicide is a truly cowardly way to go, no matter the circumstance. I've known one person who committed suicide, and he basically ruined his friends' and families lives. You'll die when it's your time to die - not before or after. And I don't say that in any religious sense, as I'm an agnostic, through and through.

[KingInTheCave]

Khal-a-bunga,

It's easy for you to say this, I assume you've never experienced the depression or hopelessness that might lead someone to commit suicide. And the argument that someone should stay alive and suffer because their friends would get hurt is a selfish one if those friends made it.

[Sci-2]

Suicide is a truly cowardly way to go, no matter the circumstance. I've known one person who committed suicide, and he basically ruined his friends' and families lives. You'll die when it's your time to die - not before or after. And I don't say that in any religious sense, as I'm an agnostic, through and through.

And how would you know the subjective experience people feel in different circumstances?

I know people who've committed suicide, and I think saying they were "cowardly" is a disrespectful oversimplification of complex issues.

[The Iceman of the North]

The US treats violations of fundamental rights rather seriously. As such I raise my concerns very specifically about making the "right to die" a fundamental civil right. Assisted suicide could be made legal without making death a fundamental civil right.

Again, how many medical professionals have been sued for ignoring a DNR order they were unaware of?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I'm glad to see the old "it's cowardly" chest beating isn't the norm anymore. It's a far, far more complex issue.

Hell, if we're going to use antiquated quotes from fictional people that lived in a time far different from our own, then I would look at a more helpful past culture. The samurai viewed suicide as extremely noble and something every single person who was shamed had a right to. That view in the Japanese culture didn't change until much more recently, and no one considered them cowardly.

[Darth Visenya]

KITC,

Well, if someone really wants to kill themselves no one can stop them. If you make suicide a right you create a situation where such a right can do real harm if someone attempts help someone who appears to be injured. Do we want to discourage people from helping others in need.

Suicide isn't illegal in most of the Western World?, that has always been my understanding anyway, I know that's a fairly recent thing though.

[Khal-a-bunga]

How is it a "far, far more complex issue"? It's cowardly - bottom line. Everyone will end up dead, eventually. Pulling the trigger yourself doesn't mean that you 'took control of your own destiny', or any other such nonsense. It just means that you couldn't deal with the realities of the world, and thus decided to take yourself out of it. Cowards. All of them.

Khal-a-bunga,

It's easy for you to say this, I assume you've never experienced the depression or hopelessness that might lead someone to commit suicide. And the argument that someone should stay alive and suffer because their friends would get hurt is a selfish one if those friends made it.

Everyone has felt depressed and hopeless, at times. The very fact that you think a friend not wanting one of their friends to commit suicide is "selfish", but not the act of committing suicide itself, is a bit ridiculous. Is there anything more selfish than committing suicide?

[Sci-2]

The samurai viewed suicide as extremely noble and something every single person who was shamed had a right to.

Was it a right or more of an obligation you're pressured into?

Honestly asking as my knowledge of Japanese history is essentially nonexistent.

eta:

It just means that you couldn't deal with the realities of the world, and thus decided to take yourself out of it. Cowards. All of them.

Repeating yourself isn't an argument. It might make you feel tough or get the adrenaline flowing, but you aren't really explaining how you know you'd survive someone else's subjective experience.

[Aemon Stark]

Iceman,

The US treats violations of fundamental rights rather seriously. As such I raise my concerns very specifically about making the "right to die" a fundamental civil right. Assisted suicide could be made legal without making death a fundamental civil right.

Until the right to die is treated as a fundamental civil right I would not expect there to be litigation over a violation of that right. My concern is prospective not as to an existing problem.

And what prospective is that? Are there people agitating for a constitutional amendment stating that "the right to die shall not be infringed"? As it stands, any competent individual can refuse any medical treatment or write an advanced directive specifying that certain treatments are not desired. In an emergency where no consent can be obtained, the usual requirement for consent is waived. There is no recourse for litigation except if, at some point, the patient is again capable and refuses consent for something. These are settled legal issues and there isn't really any question of their application.

So I don't know why you're belabouring this point.

[Darth Visenya]

How is it a "far, far more complex issue"? It's cowardly - bottom line. Everyone will end up dead, eventually. Pulling the trigger yourself doesn't mean that you 'took control of your own destiny', or any other such nonsense. It just means that you couldn't deal with the realities of the world, and thus decided to take yourself out of it. Cowards. All of them.

Everyone has felt depressed and hopeless, at times. The very fact that you think a friend not wanting one of their friends to commit suicide is "selfish", but not the act of committing suicide itself, is a bit ridiculous. Is there anything more selfish than committing suicide?

Have you ever experienced actual,severe clinical depression?, because saying someone is 'selfish' under those circumstances is very misguided and easy to say if you've never felt that low.

[sologdin]

yeah, the ethico-aesthetic condemnation on the basis of an ersatz virtue is kinda comical.

[KingInTheCave]

The very fact that you think a friend not wanting one of their friends to commit suicide is "selfish", but not the act of committing suicide itself, is a bit ridiculous. Is there anything more selfish than committing suicide?

No, it's not ridiculous, if a friend knows you're ill and with no hope but they want you to continue to suffer because it would make them unhappy if you died, that is beyond selfish if you ask me.

And a person who commits suicide has killed his own self, not someone elses. My life belongs to me and no one elses. Suicide is selfish in the same sense that breathing and eating are selfish.

It just means that you couldn't deal with the realities of the world, and thus decided to take yourself out of it. Cowards. All of them.

To be honest I don't see anything wrong with this, which is part of what lead me to start this thread. If someone can't deal with a situation or an illness and they decide to take the "easy" -or only way out in many cases- they have that choice, and if they take it. So what? Whatever pain or suffering that they experienced is over for them, time stops and their conciousness disappears. It's not like they are going to be looking back and thinking man I missed out on so much.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Same can apply to women, obviously. I work in a hospital and interact with terminally ill people on an almost daily basis. Most of them will die from their various diseases and ailments, but some of them won't, even if they think - right now - that they want to. Suicide is a truly cowardly way to go, no matter the circumstance. I've known one person who committed suicide, and he basically ruined his friends' and families lives. You'll die when it's your time to die - not before or after. And I don't say that in any religious sense, as I'm an agnostic, through and through.

The first segment I highlighted is horse poop. The second is an opinion not supported by fact.

[The Iceman of the North]

Suicide isn't illegal in most of the Western World?, that has always been my understanding anyway, I know that's a fairly recent thing though.

Not for the past 50 years or so. Outside the US, I guess Ireland was the last Western country that lifted the ban on suicide back in 1993.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Was it a right or more of an obligation you're pressured into?

Honestly asking as my knowledge of Japanese history is essentially nonexistent.

Yeah, mine is only superficial at best. It was an obligation when they were shamed, but one they begged for. I remember after I went through my episode years ago, and was made to feel like a weak coward like certain people in this thread would have you believe, that my studying of this subject in Japanese culture helped me come to terms with it. That I wasn't a coward at all. It's funny that if people really believe the coward thing though they will use that to further demean the "weak" person they are talking about.

I mean to take your own existence out, lay down on your sword as it were, how much guts and strength would that take?

Still, as long as that view is held by people who "work in a hospital", that view permeates too much of the culture.