Shouldn't everyone have the right to die?

[Centrist Simon Steele]

yeah, the ethico-aesthetic condemnation on the basis of an ersatz virtue is kinda comical.

Solo I've taken up googling all your words (because my vocab is inferior), and it's really led me to some interesting things out there. Thanks!

[sologdin]

what might a ban on suicide accomplish? do they burn the bones of the suicide and dump them unceremoniously in the thames? or does it work an attainder? but how would that work? is there a mechanism to prosecute posthumously, or is it a civil proceeding, whereby state intervenes into decedent's succession in order to impose forfeiture on suicide's heirs?

simon--

it really is an ersatz virtue. "cowardly" is likely juxtaposed with courage, greek andreia, roman virtu, both vaguely "manliness." it's a load of proto-simian chest-thumping, mostly in anger over the dearth of opposable thumbs.

[Theda Baratheon]

How is it a "far, far more complex issue"? It's cowardly - bottom line. Everyone will end up dead, eventually. Pulling the trigger yourself doesn't mean that you 'took control of your own destiny', or any other such nonsense. It just means that you couldn't deal with the realities of the world, and thus decided to take yourself out of it. Cowards. All of them.

what a load of self righteous shit. This has seriously irritated me by how ignorant your posts in this thread actually are. Suicide in some ancient cultures was actually a very noble thing to do. This idea that someone else's life is only worth living to stop their friends from feeling sad is horribly selfish.

People that have never suffered from extreme depression can so easily say their self righteous toss 'oh everyone's a bit sad sometimes' 'oh you can just treat depression and it will all go away' are really showing their dam ignorance and patronizing attitude, i think its damn rude to just dismiss everyone who wants to no longer exist as disgusting cowards.

[Sixshells]

"In this and that ancient culture, suicide was a very noble thing to do". Well, it's not the contemporary culture, and ancient cultures weren't really nice. There are also this and that ancient culture that condemn strongly suicide. Which are the ones that count?

Suicide is undoubtedly a natural right, as any able bodied individual can try and kill themselves. Suicide is not illegal anymore, and I think it's a good thing, too.

But personally, I'm not sure I want to live in the kind of world where so many people are driven to check themselves out by killing themselves that the right to do it is being claimed as a fundamental right. It seems an easy way to ignore what drove people there in the first place and not to do anything about it (why trying since suicide is an already available answer?).

Assisted suicide for those unable to do it themselves seems profoundly unethical to me. It's one thing to kill oneself, but it's totally different to demand of other people that they help you do it, either actively or by not coming to the dying person's help.

[Som Tin Wong]

Khal-a-bunga,

Your posts only show how ignorant you are. Just because you haven't experienced something yourself doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And you wouldn't know what extreme clinical depression feels like until you have experienced it.

Most people growing up will hear about suicide and think there is no way I would ever do this, it would never happen to me. Some of those people eventually commit suicide. Doesn't mean they have suddenly become cowards. The ones who don't commit suicide should eventually outgrow those thoughts once they have faced other realities they thought would never happen to them.

[Elder Sister]

I don't think I'm any different from any other human being; I've considered suicide at different times in my life. Once, many years ago, I considered it seriously, just because I had made such a mess of things. Many years later, it was because I was in constant pain for about 9 months straight. Thankfully, I got some relief from the pain.

I used to think I knew the answer to this question. I was raised in the Christian denomination; I am a devout Christian. When I was 26, one of my good friends killed herself. She was a chronic drug addict and had lost hope; she slit her wrists and her pregnant daughter found her. Yes, it was a terrible thing to inflict on her daughter, but I know my friend; she was one of the kindest, most gentle people in the world. She was desperate and hurting, or she would never have done it. A woman I worked for looked me dead in the eye and said, "What a shame she's going to hell because she took her own life." It's one of the cruelest things anyone has ever said to me.

I saw my uncle die from stage IV cancer. He suffered; his family suffered, and at the end of his life, he was abandoned by all but a few of his family. Had he taken his own life, I would have understood.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't have the right to decide for another human being what their choice is. Hank Williams sang, "I'll Never Get Out of this World Alive". And he's right; I'm going to die eventually. How I choose to live or die is between me and my God and no one else.

[Stark Revenge]

I say let them all die. They are obviously too weak for the hardships of this world and are just a drag on the rest of us that have something to contribute to society. The worlds better off without them.

[sologdin]

stay classy with that rightwing populist producerism.

[Theda Baratheon]

I say let them all die. They are obviously too weak for the hardships of this world and are just a drag on the rest of us that have something to contribute to society. The worlds better off without them.

ew to you.

[Sci-2]

I say let them all die. They are obviously too weak for the hardships of this world and are just a drag on the rest of us that have something to contribute to society. The worlds better off without them.

1) Have you ever looked up those who have committed suicide? You might be surprised how much they've contributed to the world.

2) I can safely say, looking back at the people in my own life who did kill themselves, that the world is in fact worse without them.

3) Did you read Elder Sister's post above yours? Because it's hard to see how you could post what you did after reading what she said?

[Darth Visenya]

I say let them all die. They are obviously too weak for the hardships of this world and are just a drag on the rest of us that have something to contribute to society. The worlds better off without them.

Well arn't you a sweetheart.

[Lian]

I'm only speaking here for myself, because obviously everyone can have different experiences. But I remember a time when I was depressed and I knew, with utter certainty, that I wanted to die. I told my parents about it, and I don't really remember how they reacted, except that it was with sympathy and understanding.

I think the worst possible reaction you can have to a person who wants to die is: "fine, here's the means to do so. I respect your right to kill yourself". Because even in that lowest place, I still had some rational part of me that was ready to endure more suffering. If someone would have reacted in that way, it would have pushed me over the edge. It would prove that no one cared enough about me to fight for my life, to fight against me. There really would be no reason to live, even not for other people.

Accepting suicide as a right can be dangerous and harmful. In certain cases, I believe it would make you a murderer.

I say let them all die. They are obviously too weak for the hardships of this world and are just a drag on the rest of us that have something to contribute to society. The worlds better off without them.

Is this supposed to be a parody of social darwinism?

[Sci-2]

Basically how I see it as relevant is that it's a clear precedent for a type of restriction on bodily autonomy that does not prohibit, but rather is designed to make sure that such decisions are not made lightly, but with as full an understanding of the gravity of the choice as is possible - and as much based on the patient's (and only the patient's) wishes and well being as possible.

Good points Emberling.

I have a strong aversion to the idea of people killing themselves, or such a thing becoming acceptable in society.

But having some kind of system in place would ideally respect their rights over their own body without opening too wide a floodgate.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Like everyone else at one time or another I've thought of suicide. Obviously, I've never acted on such an impulse. That said the one thing that will always be true is that pain is part of life. It will always be a part of life. There is nothing anyone can do to change that fact. As such, I believe, we have to learn to manage and accept that pain and move forward with our lives.

I make no judgments of people who choose otherwise.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

Like everyone else at one time or another I've thought of suicide. Obviously, I've never acted on such an impulse. That said the one thing that will always be true is that pain is part of life. It will always be a part of life. There is nothing anyone can do to change that fact. As such, I believe, we have to learn to manage and accept that pain and move forward with our lives.

I make no judgments of people who choose otherwise.

And therein lies the problem, right? I mean, that's the only valid argument against it, in my opinion. When I went through it I was certain I was wanted to die. Once that passed, things have gotten better. I do enjoy my life. I enjoy my time with my son, music sounds better than before, and I love exercise--to name a couple of things.

It's a complicated situation, and a private one to be sure, which ultimately will effect those around you.

Having been diagnosed with severe clinical depression, possible borderline personality disorder/or maybe PTSD they weren't ever sure, I have felt the depths of misery. I completely respect people who face that situation and check out. They aren't cowards, they are extremely brave in my opinion, to make such a severe decision instead of meandering through. They did something about it.

[Sci-2]

Maybe your world in worse without them, but not necessilarily everyone else's world. I've had good family members kill themselves as well and while it was a tragedy they obviously were too weak to handle the pressures of the world.

I think at least some subset of people who commit suicide think they are making a rational choice. Maybe they are.

I believe you're letting your instinctual aversion to suicide color your perceptions.

They aren't cowards, they are extremely brave in my opinion, to make such a severe decision instead of meandering through. They did something about it.

I wouldn't classify suicide as brave or cowardly. It's a decision, a tragic one but for all I know from their subjective perspective a rational one.

Ideally, as time goes on, society reshapes itself so that such tragedies are prevented more often than not.

[Aemon Stark]

I mean to take your own existence out, lay down on your sword as it were, how much guts and strength would that take?

With respect, I don't think that's an accurate description of most people who attempt suicide or succeed at it. Oftentimes it's a cry for attention, and may not even amount to an actual desire to die. Some of the highest suicide risk exists among people with schizophrenia, and their reasons are unpredictable, obscure, and rarely part of any rational thought let alone an example of bravery.

Still, as long as that view is held by people who "work in a hospital", that view permeates too much of the culture.

What view is that?

What do you think it's like telling a family that their wife/mom/sister is brain dead after she hanged herself, and, hey, can we have her organs now?

[Seli]

....

What view is that?

What do you think it's like telling a family that their wife/mom/sister is brain dead after she hanged herself, and, hey, can we have her organs now?

This one I assume, it does explain the reactions.

...

Same can apply to women, obviously. I work in a hospital and interact with terminally ill people on an almost daily basis. Most of them will die from their various diseases and ailments, but some of them won't, even if they think - right now - that they want to. Suicide is a truly cowardly way to go, no matter the circumstance. I've known one person who committed suicide, and he basically ruined his friends' and families lives. You'll die when it's your time to die - not before or after. And I don't say that in any religious sense, as I'm an agnostic, through and through.

[Aemon Stark]

I don't think there's anything cowardly or brave about suicide. There is certainly nothing "noble" about it, not now and not in antiquity when a disgraced Roman patrician would end his life by slitting his wrists in the bath.

[thecryptile]

In other words, you believe people should be deprived of their rights due to illness?

Severe mental illness, yes. That's the way it is in our country. If you can not give informed consent, you can't make decisions for your self. The mentally incompetent are unable to enter into contracts, sign a check, own a gun, get married, vote, or serve on a jury.

Since they can not give informed consent, some one else must make their decisions for them. If we legalize assisted suicide for [those found mentally incompetent], it would be their legal guardians or the State making this decision in the end. Do we want to have a State authority that can decide that someone's life isn't worth living? I don't.

I can't believe I'm the only one who sees the tremendous risk of abuse here.