R+L=J v 61

[Dr. Pepper]

I think you already know the relevant arguments against this. But you say you're bored and I can't sleep so I'll bite and help ease your boredom.

I'll only touch on a couple points for now, so as not to shut down your workday fun too quickly.

3. "Ned" in the BWB is kinda shocked that Arya didn't know about Ashara, and he starts to kinda hint at that Ned and Ashara were an item "Her heart was broken" - The reason for killing herself could be because she lost her son, and he was doomed to live as a bastard. Her staying in Starfall and Wylla accompanying Ned (her love?) and baby Jon back to Winterfell. All good reasons for depression.

At Starfall, the gossip isn't that Ashara is the mother. It's that Wylla is the mother. Ned Dayne tells a conflicting story. Ned and Ashara were in love, but then Ned went ahead and did the dirty with Wylla. Starfall has no reason to lie to anyone about a dead Ashara being the mother. Neither does Ned, for that matter. Nothing super secret about Ashara that would need to be kept hidden. Or Wylla. Or any other woman. Except Lyanna.

But GRRM doesn't like to be predictable either, maybe he has hidden the truth in the "obvious" and not in the hidden? Alot more talk of Ned and Ashara in the books than of Lyanna. And the time frame would work, wouldn't it? Possibly Wylla was his front to Robert, so Ashara could be spared her honor?

Sorry for posting so quickly, but as I said, kinda bored here at work......

Who says? All of the clues to the answers for all of the mysteries are right there in the books. GRRM has explicitly stated that he's not a liar. He doesn't change things up to be unpredictable or trick the reader out. He lays the clues and if the reader figures them out, cool. If not, also cool.

Interview:

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn't know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: "Oh God, the butler did it!", to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: "I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!" To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar."

[DireMaker]

Right, so the textual hints are there for A+N=J right?

[Valandui]

Yep, Sandor the gravedigger FTW! And i know, R+L=J is most likely true, as sooooo many people have pointed out, and like I said, everyone I know came to that conclusion on their own. But there are some subtle hints that lead to Ned and Ashara, don't you think?

There is still a very strong possibility that Ned and Ashara were in love. There's just a ton of evidence that Jon probably wasn't a product of that love.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Well, if a girl gets begged by someone's bigger brother to give a dance away to his younger one, does that make a true love story?

Ashara danced with more people that night, was she in love with them all? For a maiden she sure was busy at Harrenhal and after, then.

[dotheknifefight]

isn't there also a possibility it was brandon and not ned? barristan says two possible factors for ashara's "suicide" were death of her child (stillborn?) and death of her lover (brandon?)

its never explicit about which stark, is it? besides the rumors, but rumors spreading through the smallfolk rarely seem to be close to reality in this book.

however i recognize the possibility for him to have brought jon home from starfall ... but there are tons of connections between lyanna blue flowers and jon snnow.

[qixoticneurotic]

I think wyllas story is the most interesting to hear. how she went from nobody girl in the vale to serving in a southern lords castle after possibly bedding a rebel northen lord

[Dr. Pepper]

Right, so the textual hints are there for A+N=J right?

Apart from from people thinking Ashara and Ned are the parents...no. Timelines don't match. There is no hint that Ashara and Ned met up soon after he wed Cat. Nearly all of the stuff about Ashara is based on the fact that they met at Harrenhal, which was a long while before Jon was conceived, and then may have met again after the war, which was after Jon was born.

There is still the gaping hole of why it was so important for Ned to keep the identity of Jon's mother super secret, even from Cat. There is nothing harmful about anyone knowing that Ashara is the mother. There are a lot of examples of nobles having bastards with one another. Edric Storm's parents are one example. There is no example of a bastard's parentage being kept secret, unless it was for very important reasons. Gendry comes to mind. Daemon Blackfyre's parentage was secret until he was 12 or so. For these two examples, there are important reasons.

You might enjoy this thread about an Ashara theory.

[The guy from the Vale]

isn't there also a possibility it was brandon and not ned? barristan says two possible factors for ashara's "suicide" were death of her child (stillborn?) and death of her lover (brandon?)

its never explicit about which stark, is it? besides the rumors, but rumors spreading through the smallfolk rarely seem to be close to reality in this book.

however i recognize the possibility for him to have brought jon home from starfall ... but there are tons of connections between lyanna blue flowers and jon snnow.

I think it's more likely that Brandon did the dirty with Ashara than Ned, yes. We know Brandon was into that kind of thing (as Lady Dustin tells us), while I just don't see Ned the Shy and Honorable going ahead with something like this.

On the other hand, Brandon can't be Jon's father; Brandon died before Jon was conceived, as Jon was born at the end of the year-long war that started after Brandon's death.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think wyllas story is the most interesting to hear. how she went from nobody girl in the vale to serving in a southern lords castle after possibly bedding a rebel northen lord

Wait, what? When was she said to have been a nobody in the Vale?

[finger]

Yes, General Relativity is a better theory than Newton's theory of Gravity. However, an important point is that Newton's theory of gravity is still part of Einstein's more comprehensive theory: it's the special case of low velocity. Einstein didn't say "Newton was totally wrong" and put a totally different theory in its place; he showed that his theory could explain everything Newton explained and some more - and that's exactly what R+L=J supporters ask from others: bring us a theory that explains everything R+L=J explains, at the very least. Preferably, give us a theory that explains more. I've seen numerous attempts, I'm still waiting. And no, I'm not wedded to the R+L=J idea; but I see no theory explaining things better so far. Provide an alternative that explains everything R+L=J explains, and we may be talking.

As for the part about Lyanna, Ygrain already said the most important things.

I think successful requesting forbids selfdelusion or selfindulgement. Any assumption may be reconsidered at any moment until it's proven.

The prize is the finding, but the price to be paid is a permanent uneasy, unsatisfied feeling.

That stated, R+L=J doesn't explain everything, and there are many loose ends yet. The main one is what it implies, and soon after, what it lacks. Some food for thought:

The prince that what promised will face the Other, fine. He has king's blood, fine. He descends from Aerys, fine. But:

Will he be king?

Can it be also a princess?

Is he one person, the whole Aerys' offspring?

His forebears have to be Aerys AND Rhaella, or else?

TPTWP=AAR, quite right. But, is Lightbringer a real sword, or else? Who is Nisa Nisa?

I think GRRM is more complex a writer to expect a conventional ending where the one and only hero eventually prevails and takes it all. IMHO.

[dotheknifefight]

ah, i can't believe i haven't thought of that -- for ned to have fathered jon with ashara, he would have had to see her within two or three months after leaving to fight the war... which doesn't seem plausible considering ned was in the north around stony sept (or further north) ... though GRRM did say she was not nailed down or something to that effect.

there was about 8 or 9 months in between the trident and the end of the siege on storms end:

dany's mother rhaella and viserys fled to dragonstone after the battle at the trident

dany was born 9 moons later during a storm that destroyed the targaryen fleet there

dany and viserys fled before stannis arrived

stannis was only able to go to dragonstone after ned stark arrived to smash the force sieging storms end (which stannis was holding)

[dotheknifefight]

We know Brandon was into that kind of thing (as Lady Dustin tells us), while I just don't see Ned the Shy and Honorable going ahead with something like this.

this.

brandon wouldn't be the father...

again i must bring up the blue flower references.

[finger]

OK, so if I'm reading you right you're saying you think that Wylla was present at the ToJ as a servant, wetnurse, etc. before Ned arrived? If so, then I don't believe she wouldn't have known what was going on because the ToJ was so small. I don't think there would have been many people there (they were trying to keep it secret after all) and, thus, those who were there would be privy to a great deal :dunno:

I think we're saying pretty much the same thing. My point is Wylla wouldn't dare ask the KG what was going on, but of course she'd come across many facts.

She could have acted as midwife, that we don't know. But we can very well think there was a midwife and they'd loath to let her loose.

[The guy from the Vale]

I think successful requesting forbids selfdelusion or selfindulgement. Any assumption may be reconsidered at any moment until it's proven.

The prize is the finding, but the price to be paid is a permanent uneasy, unsatisfied feeling.

That stated, R+L=J doesn't explain everything, and there are many loose ends yet. The main one is what it implies, and soon after, what it lacks. Some food for thought:

The prince that what promised will face the Other, fine. He has king's blood, fine. He descends from Aerys, fine. But:

Will he be king?

Can it be also a princess?

Is he one person, the whole Aerys' offspring?

His forebears have to be Aerys AND Rhaella, or else?

TPTWP=AAR, quite right. But, is Lightbringer a real sword, or else? Who is Nisa Nisa?

I think GRRM is more complex a writer to expect a conventional ending where the one and only hero eventually prevails and takes it all. IMHO.

Yes, these are the open questions, and a "better" theory would be expected to explain all of what I mentioned before and some of what you listed here, at the least. We have several competing coexistant theories on the endgame based on R+L=J, and I will fully admit that I am not fully convinced by any of them. However, many of these open questions rely on R+L=J to even make sense in the first place, and even if they don't, R+L=J gives new options for answering them, options that may answer more of these questions without having to bend the text to suit your wishes.

[finger]

So you talk about Pinf Floyd, can you remember the lyrics?

Hey, teachers

Leave the kids alone

All you know is just

another brick in the Wall.

You asked for. :P

[finger]

Yes, these are the open questions, and a "better" theory would be expected to explain all of what I mentioned before and some of what you listed here, at the least. We have several competing coexistant theories on the endgame based on R+L=J, and I will fully admit that I am not fully convinced by any of them. However, many of these open questions rely on R+L=J to even make sense in the first place, and even if they don't, R+L=J gives new options for answering them, options that may answer more of these questions without having to bend the text to suit your wishes.

For wish is the bane of science.

:rofl:

[The Great Jon]

I think Ned himself is the ultimate proof of R+L=J. As I read GOT, the more I seen of him the more it didn't make sense that someone who held honour so high, to the point where it cost him his life, would have a bastard. When I deduced that Lyanna was the mother, at least in my mind, all the hints and clues fell into place perfectly. I was happy when I found these forums and seen I wasn't the first to realise this. But it does suck that I don't think Ashara is the mother, because Jon wielding Dawn would be the hight of badassery!!

[FrozenFire3]

I'm also wondering - are you suggesting that Lyanna, despite being in love with Rhaegar and most possibly married to him, should have refrained from sleeping with him?

Or simply seek solace in each other arms... I chanced upon people on these boards who even blame Rhaegar for Aerys' abuses following the defiance of Duskendale :blink: As if he could be held responsible for any of his mad father's crimes when it was vox populi - both in Westeros and Essos - that Rhaegar's relationship with Aerys was quite strained.

[Darryk]

Wylla and Ashara are there to throw readers off the trail, in Wylla's case by being the obvious choice at first glance, and in Ashara's case by being 'obvious' enough for readers to conclude that she is the real mother, but 'hidden' enough for them to think they solved a mystery by arriving at that conclusion.

[Ludd]

There is an obvious problem with the Wylla wet nurse story. Ned Dayne is two/three years younger than Jon. Wylla nursed both boys. But Jon came to Wintertfell with his wet nurse, not his mother. This is impossible (unless Wylla went back to Dorne) but I do not think Jon and his MOTHER were at Winterfell.