Why do people think that Jon+Dany is incest?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

We do know the Blackwoods, the family of Bloodraven's mother, are Old Gods followers. It's pretty likely Bloodraven grew up among them.

Or its more likely that as a Great Bastard he grew up in the court since Missy had to be with Aegon.

[The guy from the Vale]

Or its more likely that as a Great Bastard he grew up in the court since Missy had to be with Aegon.

Would she have been safe at court after Aegon's death? Bloodraven was 9 by that time, young enough to still grow up amongst his maternal relatives. Even if he grew up in KL, his mother was still an Old Gods follower herself. Is it that unlikely that he would follow her beliefs?

(and yes, I just noticed Bloodraven was only 21 during the first Blackfyre rebellion. But he already had his own military group... curious to say the least.)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Would she have been safe at court after Aegon's death? Bloodraven was 9 by that time, young enough to still grow up amongst his maternal relatives. Even if he grew up in KL, his mother was still an Old Gods follower herself. Is it that unlikely that he would follow her beliefs?

(and yes, I just noticed Bloodraven was only 21 during the first Blackfyre rebellion. But he already had his own military group... curious to say the least.)

Since BR was among the Targ loyalists in the Rebellion I would say that he grew up close to Daeron. As for Missy was a follower of the Old Gods so Bryden was a follower of the Old Gods, look at the Starks. Cat is a follower of the Seven but her children are not (or at least all of them) and one of them is an Old God too. In other words, if a mother is a follower of a religion that doesn’t mean that the children follow the same religion.

[Robin the Mighty]

Firstly, Welcome to the forums.

Dany is Jon's aunt, so by 'modern' standards this is clearly incest. As readers, we often subconsciously apply our own set of morals and social biases to any material we read. This is just the way we go through life, comparing things to our own experiences and values almost instantly. It is only with some effort that we begin to consider other cultural standards and evaluate them with 'open minds'. We could step back and say 'In Westeros it wouldn't be considered weird', but when we re-enter our own world we'll think 'Ew, Aunt/Nephew marriage is wrong'.

:agree:

[WhiteOwl18]

She is his aunt, and if brother/sister relationships are considered incest in Westeros, so would an aunt/nephew relationship. But, really, I fail to understand why people seem to think that Jon/Dany would be a good match. I have a hard time imagining them even liking each other. I believe they will cross paths eventually, but I seriously doubt that we'll see a romance with these two.

[Ghost's Shadow]

For that to happen, we'll need a fourth book...

And I do agree that nephew/aunt is incest in Westeros, but one bloodline more mixed in isn't.

[WeddinGuest]

Interesting to know there are still cultures that find uncle/niece marriages socially acceptable; I did not know that. As for other degrees of incest, the standards certainly do differ from culture to culture. It seems that people of a certain social standing who have reasons for wanting to keep power, lands, money, etc., find cousin incest to be much more acceptable than the "hoi polloi". There are cultures in which half-siblings (usually of different mothers) marrying used to be acceptable; even Abraham and Sarah from the Bible were half-siblings (and this is actually a major plot point, as Abraham has Sarah "pose" as his sister when it serves his purpose).

However, most of the time, it seems consensual incest (as opposed to abusive situations like Craster and his daughters), tends to occur between people who are NOT raised together and don't psychologically see themselves as family. Since we aren't equipped with like-DNA-sensors, we tend to "family-zone" kids we grown up with, even those who aren't biologically related; even animals who are raised together in zoos and the like, often are NOT interested in mating with each other, and have to be farmed out elsewhere for mating purposes (or, they just bypass the whole process using artificial insemination).

Note that while the Targs DID practice sibling incest, those marriages were for the most part treated as "marriages of state", not passion; it doesn't seem the people involved had any more lust for each other than partners in more traditional marriage arrangements. Many of the Targ kings had bastards, and I suspect many held their noses and copulated with their sisters for the sake of heir-making, then ran off to their mistresses for more passionate loving. Dany may have assumed at some point that she'd eventually marry Viserys, but she doesn't show anything other than sisterly feelings for him.

As for whether fans would accept a Jon/Dany pairing; I think that if GRRM "primes the pump" enough, they will. After all, Jane Austen shows first cousins marrying, as well as people who are in-laws, and young women marrying men who are almost 20 years older; and yet, her work is still popular and considered romantic.

Also, Downton Abbey is set in the 1910s, fairly close to our time, but no one says anything is "gross" about Mary marrying her distant cousin Matthew, or being engaged to her even closer cousin Patrick (I think he might even have been her first cousin). That show also features a romance between Edith and a man old enough to be her biological grandfather, with an age difference even in-universe characters found disturbing, yet that "ship" is still quite popular.

What I think is more important, is whether Jon/Dany, if it does occur, is plausible in other ways. Since so far, Jon and Dany haven't even laid eyes or each other, or even know the other exists, they certainly wouldn't see each other, psychologically, as family members. I can see Jon angsting if he falls for Dany then finds out she's his aunt, but more over the principle of it than an "ick" factor. (And note that when Ygritte expresses disgust over the idea of a man marrying his sister, Jon's well, lack of reaction is telling. And we do know that one of his boyhood heroes was a Targ, that he takes Aemon's words as advice to essentially suppress his emotions so he can do his duty. I can see Jon NOT actually falling for Dany, but deciding that he's duty-bound to marry her for the good of the realm.

All that being said; I'd personally be rather disappointed by an ending in which the Targs are fully restored the Iron Throne, their dragons, and their incestuous practices, because that's so, well, reactionary an end to a story; basically, everything returns to the way they were, The End. That's, IMHO, boring. I don't think that's where GRRM is taking this story.

[Bluesnow]

Do we have examples of nephew/aunt marriages by non-Targs in Westeros, and if they were okay in the eyes of the Seven and the other people?

First cousin marriages are somewhat okay, but your sibling's child?

Wasn't it Alys Karstark's uncle that was going to force her to marry him?

[Annara Snow]

Interesting to know there are still cultures that find uncle/niece marriages socially acceptable; I did not know that. As for other degrees of incest, the standards certainly do differ from culture to culture. It seems that people of a certain social standing who have reasons for wanting to keep power, lands, money, etc., find cousin incest to be much more acceptable than the "hoi polloi". There are cultures in which half-siblings (usually of different mothers) marrying used to be acceptable; even Abraham and Sarah from the Bible were half-siblings (and this is actually a major plot point, as Abraham has Sarah "pose" as his sister when it serves his purpose).

Yes, it depends on the culture. In my country, sex/marriage between cousins is also taboo and considered incest. The custom of old European royal houses, and English landowners in previous centuries, of marrying cousins, is seen as bizarre and wrong, akin to Egyptian dynasties marrying brother to sister. This cultural difference may be due to two factors, the non-existence of aristocracy in the post-medieval period due to the Ottoman rule, and the traditional closeness of extended family members, especially in rural environments, where, even in the first part of the 20th century, it was not uncommon for an entire well-off extended family (landowning grandparents, their children and their children, i.e. aunts and uncles and nieces and nephews and nieces and cousins) to live under the same roof. The language reflects that as well - there is no such word as a "cousin", but the equivalent terms for cousin can be literally translated as "brother/sister by aunt/uncle". Some people even shorten it and say "he's my brother" without explaining that they don't mean by the same parents - though that's not common, and I've only heard it from one or two people who are really close to their cousins.

However, most of the time, it seems consensual incest (as opposed to abusive situations like Craster and his daughters), tends to occur between people who are NOT raised together and don't psychologically see themselves as family. Since we aren't equipped with like-DNA-sensors, we tend to "family-zone" kids we grown up with, even those who aren't biologically related; even animals who are raised together in zoos and the like, often are NOT interested in mating with each other, and have to be farmed out elsewhere for mating purposes (or, they just bypass the whole process using artificial insemination).

Indeed, it's called Westermarck effect. It's what makes Jaime/Cersei even more unusual.

The opposite - strong sexual attraction between close relatives (usually half-siblings, but also mothers and sons and fathers and daughters) who haven't grown up as family and only meet years later, as adults or adolescents, is a wide-spread phenomenon called Genetic Sexual Attraction.

Personally, I find relationships between people who have been brought up as siblings (adopted, foster...) much more incestuous, in the true sense of the word, than people who are biological siblings but haven't been brought up together and never thought of each other as siblings.

Note that while the Targs DID practice sibling incest, those marriages were for the most part treated as "marriages of state", not passion; it doesn't seem the people involved had any more lust for each other than partners in more traditional marriage arrangements. Many of the Targ kings had bastards, and I suspect many held their noses and copulated with their sisters for the sake of heir-making, then ran off to their mistresses for more passionate loving. Dany may have assumed at some point that she'd eventually marry Viserys, but she doesn't show anything other than sisterly feelings for him.

There is one example of Targaryen siblings who were apparently really in love - but they were not married: Aemon the Dragonknight and queen Naerys, who was however married for dynastic reasons to the elder brother Aegon the Unworthy, which was a completely loveless marriage.

Still, that's one example in many generations.

All that being said; I'd personally be rather disappointed by an ending in which the Targs are fully restored the Iron Throne, their dragons, and their incestuous practices, because that's so, well, reactionary an end to a story; basically, everything returns to the way they were, The End. That's, IMHO, boring. I don't think that's where GRRM is taking this story.

:agree:

[Alhazred]

Most people think it is "incest" because most people define "incest" to include aunts and uncles, nephews and nieces. And I'm not even limiting the discussion to our society. When you get the cousin marriages, you are in a grey area, tolerated in a great many societies, but avuncular marriages falls within the "incest taboo" to an overwhelming degree across multiple societies (but no taboo is ever universally agreed upon).

As far as I can tell, in Westeros incest only applies to siblings, not cousins or aunts/uncles.

If we limit the discussion to "Westeros standards" then probably cousins do not qualify. I am aware of no information that nephews and nieces do not qualify.

[Le Cygne]

And note that when Ygritte expresses disgust over the idea of a man marrying his sister, Jon's well, lack of reaction is telling.

This was intriguing, so I looked it up. I don't think he's approving, he's just saying Longspear wasn't her brother:

“A boy at a feast, five years past. He’d come trading with his brothers, and he had hair like mine, kissed by fire, so I thought he would be lucky. But he was weak. When he came back t’ try and steal me, Longspear broke his arm and ran him off, and he never tried again, not once.”

“It wasn’t Longspear, then?” Jon was relieved. He liked Longspear, with his homely face and friendly ways.

She punched him. “That’s vile. Would you bed your sister?”

“Longspear’s not your brother.”

“He’s of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

I think the incest factor would bother him enough that he wouldn't go there, he's so Nedly. But more than that, she'd find him too tame, and he'd find her exasperating. Incompatibility more than anything else.

[Lasicka]

I think the incest factor would bother him enough that he wouldn't go there, he's so Nedly. But more than that, she'd find him too tame, and he'd find her exasperating. Incompatibility more than anything else.

:agree:

It is invigorating to know I´m not the only one who thinks they wouldn´t make a good match...

[iolahardy]

I don't know what name I would give to a relationship between Dany & Jon but since Jon is raised by Ned & has followed all his fathers principles till date including his Gods & the Starks don't marry in their immediate families I do not support the idea of Jon marrying Dany. I would feel like he went back on his basic principles just to sit on the IT.

And more than anything else when all these wars end I really expect some changes in Westeroes & one much needed change is an end to these inbreeding practices for one and all! The seven Kingdoms are teeming with people........move your ass & find suitable individuals OUTSIDE your family please!!! :rolleyes: :angry:

[Bael's Bastard]

Maybe because they have a good taste?

Seriously tho, I think that this happens because Dany's fans want to see her as a legit Queen and not as an Usurper who takes away her nephew's legal birthright.

Do Dany's fans really tend to think Jon is legitimate? Those theories seem to be mostly coming from Jon fans who want him to be king as a legitimate Targaryen. Not everyone has a problem with him still being a bastard (just someone else's). I don't know that those who want to see Jon and Dany base it on anything all that well thought out. For now Dany is the only verified legitimate Targaryen alive, and would have an impossible time usurping anything from another Targaryen.

[Mad Monkey]

I don't know what name I would give to a relationship between Dany & Jon but since Jon is raised by Ned & has followed all his fathers principles till date including his Gods & the Starks don't marry in their immediate families I do not support the idea of Jon marrying Dany. I would feel like he went back on his basic principles just to sit on the IT.

And more than anything else when all these wars end I really expect some changes in Westeroes & one much needed change is an end to these inbreeding practices for one and all! The seven Kingdoms are teeming with people........move your ass & find suitable individuals OUTSIDE your family please!!! :rolleyes: :angry:

I always thought it was interesting that incest was so common in Westeros. A lot of political arrangements seem to work by one family being bound to another one through marriage (ie Tully binding Stark and Arryn using Catelyn/Brandon and Lysa/Jon); incest kind of short-circuits that. What would be the sense in marrying Edmure to Catelyn or Lyanna to Eddard? Even if it wasn't disturbing it just seems wasteful from a political end -- you're essentially 'squandering' the opportunity to form a political bond with another family. I can understand it happening occasionally to keep family wealth within the family but not to the degree it happens here where it barely seems taboo at all.

[Djinn]

There's also Paxter Redwyne, nephew of Oleanna Tyrell, married to his cousin.

The Jon+Daenerys is a little bit like Alys+Creggan or the Victarion+Asha situation, were the most powerful marries the other to assimilate it's better claim.

[complexphoenix]

I believe the Church in the Middle Ages defined uncle/niece and aunt/nephew as incest and forbade such marriages, though nobles could sometimes get a special dispensation. In Shakespeare's Richard III there is a scene where Richard proposes to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York; this is clearly meant to disgust the audience and the audience is expected to be happy when Henry Tudor defeats Richard and marries Elizabeth. So no, it isn't just a "modern standards" thing.

[SeanF]

I believe the Church in the Middle Ages defined uncle/niece and aunt/nephew as incest and forbade such marriages, though nobles could sometimes get a special dispensation. In Shakespeare's Richard III there is a scene where Richard proposes to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York; this is clearly meant to disgust the audience and the audience is expected to be happy when Henry Tudor defeats Richard and marries Elizabeth. So no, it isn't just a "modern standards" thing.

Uncle/niece Aunt/nephew was certainly considered incestuous, but was sometimes permitted to royalty (Heraclius and Philip II married nieces). Even royalty couldn't get away with marrying siblings though.

There was a Count of Armagnac who married his sister, a noted beauty, and had three children by her, in the 15th century. He spent a fortune trying to persuade the Curia to recognise his marriage, without success, and his children were deemed illegitimate.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Do Dany's fans really tend to think Jon is legitimate? Those theories seem to be mostly coming from Jon fans who want him to be king as a legitimate Targaryen. Not everyone has a problem with him still being a bastard (just someone else's). I don't know that those who want to see Jon and Dany base it on anything all that well thought out. For now Dany is the only verified legitimate Targaryen alive, and would have an impossible time usurping anything from another Targaryen.

Never said that Targs fans tend to think Jon is legit. Fans who have read the books think that Jon is legit. Dany's fans want her married with him so she didn't be the think what she used to call Robert. Usurper. Without marrying Jon, or any other Targ King, Dany cannot be a Queen without being an usurper.

[random girl from westeros]

And we are talking about another world, incest is also an abomination there, but the Valyrian people did it culturally, the Targaryens brought up the tradition to Westeros, but Andals can't do that because when someone mention the Targaryens, they are considered beyond gods law, it's kinda complicated

See in Westeros if you have 3 gigantic firebreathing winged lizards pretty much anything goes (mind my english, it is not my native language)