U.S. Politics - Government shut-down edition (repeat)

[Guest Raidne]

I have educated myself and consequently make pretty damn good health care decisions and have greatly improved the quality of my care as a result. My primary physician has actually thanked me for this, unprompted. I am not a special snowflake. Market pressure is not a panacea, but it would certainly have a net positive result over the status quo, which is why the ACA standardizes so many things about health care policies to allow for accurate comparison shopping.

[Phaing]

Wasn't that long ago, the Dems didn't have a problem with shutting down the Govt themselves.

Remember Madison, Wisconsin?

[Guest Raidne]

Well, I have to admit that is an excellent point. I was actually not aware of the 2011 government shutdown in Wisconsin. Here is the wiki page for anyone else who is unfamiliar with those events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Minnesota_state_government_shutdown

And that one occurred because of the Governor.

[ThinkerX]

So...time to ignore the Hastart Rule again to end the shutdown?

[Minsc]

Wasn't that long ago, the Dems didn't have a problem with shutting down the Govt themselves.

Remember Madison, Wisconsin?

That wasn't the same kind of government shut down. In how, that just shutdown the legislative process of the State Senate(similar to a filibuster) however the state government services continued as the matter didn't stop the apportion of funds to these services.

In contrast, this shutdown shuts down the non-mandatory federal government services in how the apportion for the funds to perform those services have ran out of this year/whatever.

[Guest Raidne]

Is the Wiki page I linked wrong then? Because it's not consistent with what you are saying about the 2011 Wisconsin shutdown.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Is the Wiki page I linked wrong then? Because it's not consistent with what you are saying about the 2011 Wisconsin shutdown.

The link you had was for the Minnesota shutdown that also occured that year.

The general fact is correct that yes their were Democratic actions that have led to distribution in government.

[Shryke]

I have educated myself and consequently make pretty damn good health care decisions and have greatly improved the quality of my care as a result. My primary physician has actually thanked me for this, unprompted. I am not a special snowflake. Market pressure is not a panacea, but it would certainly have a net positive result over the status quo, which is why the ACA standardizes so many things about health care policies to allow for accurate comparison shopping.

I think, just by doing that, you actually ARE a special snowflake. Certainly an out of the ordinary water crystal.

Market pressure here isn't bad but it's not going to be terribly effective in many situations. In general, health care is just not a service that meshes well with open markets. The conditions aren't right and the incentives are often completely off.

[karaddin]

Yeah I'd agree on Shryke on that. Although special snowflake is normally used with negative connotations, I don't mean it in this case - you are much more educated on this subject than the vast majority of people Raidne.

[Inigima]

Though rather this where you wanted to make your is severly questionable at this time.

I am unable to parse this sentence. I am not sure if it's because I just woke up or if it's genuinely incomprehensible.

[Fez]

I suspect its at least something of an outlier (although not significantly so, Q-polls are generally very reliable, as we saw in 2012), but numbers like these ought to be absolutely terrifying to Republicans who aren't delusional:

American voters oppose 72 - 22 percent Congress shutting down the federal government to block implementation of the Affordable Care Act, or Obamacare, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

Voters also oppose 64 - 27 percent blocking an increase in the nation's debt ceiling as a way to stop Obamacare, the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University poll finds.

American voters are divided on Obamacare, with 45 percent in favor and 47 percent opposed, but they are opposed 58 - 34 percent to Congress cutting off funding for the health care law to stop its implementation.

Republicans support the federal government shutdown by a narrow 49 - 44 percent margin, but opposition is 90 - 6 percent among Democrats and 74 - 19 percent among independent voters.

President Barack Obama gets a negative 45 - 49 percent overall job approval rating, compared to his 46 - 48 percent score August 2.

American voters disapprove 74 - 17 percent of the job Republicans in Congress are doing, their lowest score ever, and disapprove 60 - 32 percent of the job Democrats are doing.

and

Looking at the 2014 Congressional races, voters pick a generic Democrat over a generic Republican candidate 43 - 34 percent, the widest Democratic margin measured so far.

[Sturn]

Reid's said that the Senate will officially reject the CR before midnight; so the House may have the opportunity for another vote. I'm not sure if it'll be logistically possible though.

Jon Stewart just nailed it on The Daily Show. One of those nights where he was on fire in the zone in the opening segment. It was great. Especially in his points about there being times when the "pox on both your houses" sentiment is legit, but this ain't one of them, this government shutdown is all on the Republicans.

[The Anti-Targ]

But surely, this shut down government is exactly the size of government the Tea party wants. The Tea party gets exactly the small government they want and all they needed to do to get it was to not pass any spending legislation. And so they can continue to not pass the spending legislation and create a new reality. The ACA is effectively defunded now too right? So for the Tea Party it's win-win.

[Fez]

Sturn,

Are you claiming that refusing to give in to blackmail makes one culpable? I, for one, don't believe in blaming victims like that.

The ACA is effectively defunded now too right? So for the Tea Party it's win-win.

Not at all. There are lots of moving parts to the ACA, but nearly all are either 1) pre-funded from 2010 or 2) entitlement-funded and thus not subject to the annual appropriations process. ACA open enrollment began today as scheduled (and the upshot of the shutdown is that it distracts the media from focusing too heavy on the inevitable glitches in the first days of enrollment).

[Sturn]

Sturn,

Are you claiming that refusing to give in to blackmail makes one culpable? I, for one, don't believe in blaming victims like that.

Have you looked at the lastest versions the House sent to the Senate? They relatively don't do much, and the Senate still automatically rejected them with the shutdown pending. The Senate (Deomocrats) seem to be ringing their hands hoping for a shutdown that can be blamed 100% on the House (Republicans). I agree, most blame goes to the House, but the Senate can now share a piece of the shit pie our elected officials are feeding us.

[Kouran]

You know it takes two to tango. Sure the Republicans bare most of the blame, but the democrats are not blameless. To act otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things this little spat will amount to noting more than a ridiculous footnote on American history. I think it also proves the point that the Congress is broken with just two parties, there is no room for compromise when its either your way or you lose, as seen by your donors and the public.

[Shryke]

Sturn,

Are you claiming that refusing to give in to blackmail makes one culpable? I, for one, don't believe in blaming victims like that.

Time to dust this bad-boy off again, eh?

Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.

This, plainly stated, is your language.

[...]

Under all these circumstances, do you really feel yourselves justified to break up this Government unless such a court decision as yours is, shall be at once submitted to as a conclusive and final rule of political action? But you will not abide the election of a Republican president! In that supposed event, you say, you will destroy the Union; and then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us! That is cool. A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth, "Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you, and then you will be a murderer!"

To be sure, what the robber demanded of me - my money - was my own; and I had a clear right to keep it; but it was no more my own than my vote is my own; and the threat of death to me, to extort my money, and the threat of destruction to the Union, to extort my vote, can scarcely be distinguished in principle.

- AbrahamLincolwned

[Shryke]

You know it takes two to tango. Sure the Republicans bare most of the blame, but the democrats are not blameless. To act otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things this little spat will amount to noting more than a ridiculous footnote on American history. I think it also proves the point that the Congress is broken with just two parties, there is no room for compromise when its either your way or you lose, as seen by your donors and the public.

How are the Democrats to blame?

There's nothing intellectually honest about trying to pretend this is anything but hostage taking by the GOP. And gleefully so.

Again.

All the GOP has to do is stop trying to defund Obamacare, the law they can't repeal no matter how many times they've tried, via threat of economic destruction and that's it.

[Robin Of House Hill]

You know it takes two to tango. Sure the Republicans bare most of the blame, but the democrats are not blameless. To act otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

I suppose in the grand scheme of things this little spat will amount to noting more than a ridiculous footnote on American history. I think it also proves the point that the Congress is broken with just two parties, there is no room for compromise when its either your way or you lose, as seen by your donors and the public.

Sorry, but adding more parties just opens the door to a lot of really evil backroom deal making.

Democrats to blame? How so?

[Fez]

Have you looked at the lastest versions the House sent to the Senate? They relatively don't do much, and the Senate still automatically rejected them with the shutdown pending. The Senate (Deomocrats) seem to be ringing their hands hoping for a shutdown that can be blamed 100% on the House (Republicans). I agree, most blame goes to the House, but the Senate can now share a piece of the shit pie our elected officials are feeding us.

"Don't do much"? It delays the individual mandate for a year; if anything that'd be even worse than defunding the ACA since with the mandate gone but the rest of the law in place, costs would skyrocket for insurers to the point where the whole health care financing system in the US could collapse.