why did Stannis mock Maester Cressen?

[Arya kiddin']

I won't have a problem being called a Dany or Cat Lover so...thanks!

:commie: Welcome aboard Sharya. :commie:

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

EDIT: I decided I'm not going engage this off topic conversation any longer. If someone wants to feel that they can't complain about a character they don't like because s/he has defenders and/or that some other character is being unjustly treated because s/he has critics, that's fine.

So, back on topic: Where were we? Stannis was a dick in this instance, but not comparable to the worse things he does (or that other people do).

[E-Ro]

lmao, wow, there are some extremely pathetic and whiny posts in the last few pages of this thread. I find it hilarious when people say things like "yeah Stannis is treated as a god" or "we cant bash Stannis because he has fans" First of all, saying either of those things is rendered incorrect when you go into every fucking Stannis thread you see to bash him. Obviously he isn't treated like a "god" by people, or you wouldn't see anyone bashing him.

Second, every character has fans. when you debate and discuss ANY character prepare to have your claims critiqued, questioned, and disagreed with by people. If you cant handle that, instead of whining when people debunk your claims don't debate at all.

Third, why in the name of all that is logical and intelligent is cat hate being compared to stannis love? the logic seems to be this, "cat has trolls that attack her, so we should constantly bitch about Stannis because... ummm, LOGIC! Yeah, that's it!" I am sure I dont need to explain to you why that makes no sense(well, some of you might need it explained)

to sum this post up, yes, Stannis has fans. Get over it. And dont go into every Stannis thread to complain about him and not expect to be called on it. you wanna complain and argue with his fans? fine, we welcome exposing all the double standards and nonsensical accusations thrown at him. But ffs, dont complain when you get bested in an argument, it makes you look petty, small, and jealous. Jealous that your favorite isnt as well loved.

EDIT: I decided I'm not going engage this off topic conversation any longer. If someone wants to feel that they can't complain about a character they don't like because s/he has defenders and/or that some other character is being unjustly treated because s/he has critics, that's fine.

So, back on topic: Where were we? Stannis was a dick in this instance, but not comparable to the worse things he does (or that other people do).

haha, my thoughts exactly. So well said, and brah, you are one of the smartest people on these forums. I always love your posts. Been cheering you on as I watched this go down.

[Lady Sharya]

What do you want?

1.What are you even arguing with me over?

Apparently, it's not enough to compare Dany more favorably to Stannis.

2. Just because people disagree with you does not mean you are some persecuted minority. So, please, stop playing the victim

1. Most of your arguments are among the fairest to ALL characters I've read. Unfortunately, they are mixed in with less reasonable ones from others, so I'm not sure all arguments are directed at you.

This can't be said for your defense of Stannis in general.

2. Maybe the trigger finger for the "You must be a Stannis Hater" button otta let up a bit then. Or you can simply take your own advise.

[E-Ro]

Actively insists(and with some fury) that they aren't a Stannis hater.

Proceeds to go into every. single. Stannis. Thread. On. the. Front. Page. Of. The. Forum. And bash him.

I have to say, Stannis certainly does have the most dedicated group of detractors of all the characters in the series. Suppose its only fair as he has the most dedicated fans.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

lmao, wow, there are some extremely pathetic and whiny posts in the last few pages of this thread. I find it hilarious when people say things like "yeah Stannis is treated as a god" or "we cant bash Stannis because he has fans" First of all, saying either of those things is rendered incorrect when you go into every fucking Stannis thread you see to bash him. Obviously he isn't treated like a "god" by people, or you wouldn't see anyone bashing him.

Second, every character has fans. when you debate and discuss ANY character prepare to have your claims critiqued, questioned, and disagreed with by people. If you cant handle that, instead of whining when people debunk your claims don't debate at all.

Third, why in the name of all that is logical and intelligent is cat hate being compared to stannis love? the logic seems to be this, "cat has trolls that attack her, so we should constantly bitch about Stannis because... ummm, LOGIC! Yeah, that's it!" I am sure I dont need to explain to you why that makes no sense(well, some of you might need it explained)

to sum this post up, yes, Stannis has fans. Get over it. And dont go into every Stannis thread to complain about him and not expect to be called on it. you wanna complain and argue with his fans? fine, we welcome exposing all the double standards and nonsensical accusations thrown at him. But ffs, dont complain when you get bested in an argument, it makes you look petty, small, and jealous. Jealous that your favorite isnt as well loved.

haha, my thoughts exactly. So well said, and brah, you are one of the smartest people on these forums. I always love your posts. Been cheering you on as I watched this go down.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

1. Most of your arguments are among the fairest to ALL characters I've read. Unfortunately, they are mixed in with less reasonable ones from others, so I'm not sure all arguments are directed at you.

This can't be said for your defense of Stannis in general.

2. Maybe the trigger finger for the "You must be a Stannis Hater" button otta let up a bit then. Or you can simply take your own advise.

1. That was a specific response to a specific post.

2. Every post I have seen from you has been bashing Stannis. Sure, i don't follow you around. Maybe there's a post where you preach your love for him. But you specifically came into Thread to throw an insulting "joke" at him. I'm not sure what else that is.

Actively insists(and with some fury) that they aren't a Stannis hater.

Proceeds to go into every. single. Stannis. Thread. On. the. Front. Page. Of. The. Forum. And bash him.

I have to say, Stannis certainly does have the most dedicated group of detractors of all the characters in the series. Suppose its only fair as he has the most dedicated fans.

Damn straight. This isn't just Stannis. I remember a period where Sansa was constantly getting bashed for not loving Tyrion. The Sansa fans (including me though I came in at the end) were pretty vocal during that period. They still are, but mainly stick to the PtP Threads and where else is relevant.

[Gargarax]

I'm fairly new here and getting the impression that Stannis is a special case where all negative must be overlooked & all positive exaggerated...but hey we can feel free to dog all others mercelously. Is this so?

Actually, the good thing about all the love/hate Stannis threads is that among the fans there aren't just worshippers who deny Stannis many darker sides and argue for Stannis by saying stuff like "He is such a BAMF!", but also people whose appreciation (how you can love him is still beyond me) for Stannis is based on pretty good arguments. I came to the forum finding Stannis one of the most despicable characters in the books, but was actually convinced by some posters that this view is just as one-sided as seeing him a a god. There was this essay somebody pointed out about how Stannis' insistence that the crown is his is actually really in the best interest of the realm (couldn't find the link, sorry). Another user said in a thread that few people loved Stannis before they came to this forum, so there must be some good arguments around ;)

As for the "back on topic, please" - hasn't this thread kind of reached a dead end? Some think it was just a dick move that we shouldn't read too much into, others think it's a first instance where Stannis shows that he doesn't live up to his own standards (asking absolute loyalty from his subjects while not even rewarding that loyalty by shielding them from mockery). It seems to me we didn't get further than that since about 5 pages ago ...

[Antler's Fury]

I always felt that the Cressen Incident was part of Stannis' larger religious conversion. Cressen represented all the tactics that Stannis had rejected, like compromise and faith in the powerless Seven. Mel, on the other hand, was everything Cressen was not: young, sexy, and powerful. Stannis clearly wanted to quietly retire Cressen, hence his having the Citadel send Pylos and simpy not inviting Cressen to advise him. Cressen, however, would not be ignored, leading to the uncomfortable mocking incident. Nyrhex's explanation seems to fit with his wanting to again, just quietly sideline him and save his life but not taking into consideration Cressen's insistence on going head-to-head with the Red Priestess.

Oh so this is the reason why Stannis is a dick then?

Not because he, you know, burns people alive on a regular basis and sent shadow abominations to murder his brother and the honorable Ser Courtney Penrose?

Well actually, he doesn't. His burning people is always for exceptional circumstances, usually treason, or, more recently, cannibalism. Burning people alive was what Aerys did. You know, that guy Stannis starved to overthrow? As far as shadow assassins are concerned, both Renly and Penrose were committing treason, especially Penrose, who locked Stannis out of Storm's End long after his usurping leige lord was dead, and then tried to sell his loyalty to literally anybody who'd help him instead of Stannis, his rightful lord. Honorable? Not so much. Stannis wouldn't have to keep killing people if the people in question didn't have a habit of backstabbing him.

Ok. Next he is going to chuck a puppy down a well and like totally make the scales fall off the eyes of his rabid supporters who until now have conveniently turned a blind eye to his many far worse atrocities.

Even if Stannis raised an orphan puppy personally, drivel like this would probably be spouted as gospel truth. After all, you seem to think Stannis as perfectly capable of chucking a puppy down a well, when we have evidence of him doing the exact opposite in raising Proudwing. But of course, you wouldn't be the first commentor to not care about, you know, the actual text. I haven't been here that long and yet I've read people accuse Stannis of burning babies or wanting to start a religious civil war in Westeros, among other things, despite evidence clearly to the contrary.

[Antler's Fury]

By the standards of both Westeros and our own world of the time it is a cruel and unusual punishment

Westeros is a place where leaving people in cages to starve to death is considered an acceptable form of execution. I don't think they even have a commonly accepted idea of what "cruel and unusual" means.

[Antler's Fury]

As for the "back on topic, please" - hasn't this thread kind of reached a dead end? Some think it was just a dick move that we shouldn't read too much into, others think it's a first instance where Stannis shows that he doesn't live up to his own standards (asking absolute loyalty from his subjects while not even rewarding that loyalty by shielding them from mockery). It seems to me we didn't get further than that since about 5 pages ago ...

But he does shield Cressen from mockery. Repeatedly, in fact:

"I will not have you kill yourself in my service.”

“He is old, his mind wanders,” “What is it, Cressen? Speak your mind.”

“You go too far, woman,” “He is an old man, and he’s served me well.”

He also replaced Cressen by Pylos that night, without even telling Cressen.

Because Cressen is old and tired and needs his rest. Pylos is, after all, a maester too, and a competant one too, it seems.

He mocks him before for being old and useless, after years of service.

No, he calls him "ill and confused." Because...well, he is ill and confused. I don't know where people get this "useless" idea from.

[GallowsKnight]

The Most compelling line that supports Stannis being forewarned about Cressen's death is this Stannis line:

I will not have you kill yourself in my service

He tries to avoid Cressen's death in different steps:

1. Doesn't summon to the feast

2. Trys to make him feel unwanted

3. Finally ceases the mocking and almost outright orders him not to kill himself.

The irony is with prophecy/pre-destination the crapshoot it is in the books, he may have caused Cressen's death by trying so hard to prevent it. He made Cressen feel like he had been completely taken over by Melissandre. Had he invited him to the feast and considered his counsels Cressen might not have gone so far.

Westeros is a place where leaving people in cages to starve to death is considered an acceptable form of execution. I don't think they even have a commonly accepted idea of what "cruel and unusual" means.

Agreed. Even a decapitation is particularly cruel in those times. Not even executioner is Ilyn Payne or Ned Stark. Other people might take a half a dozen painful blows.

Hanging likewise isn't the clean snapping of a neck. Look at how horrible Pod's strangulation/hanging is by the BWB.

[Antler's Fury]

He demoted him and then called him a useless old man after years of loyal service.

Stannis actually calls him "ill and confused" not useless. At any rate, I'm curious to know your opinion on what exactly does one should call a maester who cannot tend his ravens. Or even walk without assistance. Spry? Healthy? Should Stannis have signed Cressen up for the Dragonstone Marathon?

[EstEst]

The Most compelling line that supports Stannis being forewarned about Cressen's death is this Stannis line:

He tries to avoid Cressen's death in different steps:

1. Doesn't summon to the feast

2. Trys to make him feel unwanted

3. Finally ceases the mocking and almost outright orders him not to kill himself.

The irony is with prophecy/pre-destination the crapshoot it is in the books, he may have caused Cressen's death by trying so hard to prevent it. He made Cressen feel like he had been completely taken over by Melissandre. Had he invited him to the feast and considered his counsels Cressen might not have gone so far.

While I absolutely support the view of Stannis mocking Cressen "to make him feel unwanted", I'd say what happened at the feast was just a logical peak of what went on for weeks. As Melisandre's ideas grew more and more affecting Stannis politics, Cressen's verbal attacks on her grew more and more insistent. Stannis surely saw where this could lead: either from the profecy, or just because that was obvious without any magic. He tried to safely remove Cressen from the field by, e.g., ignoring his council, having a younger Maester sit in his place (literally), shooing him away "to let him rest" all but directly. His motives are very well described by the line that GallowsKnight mentioned: "I will not have you kill yourself in my service." , and his methods are as blunt as Stannis is himself. Good people skills, has our Stannis.

And at the feast, remember, at first Stannis is gruff with Cressen but never cruel:

"Cressen slid his hands up into his sleeves as if for warmth. <...>

"Lord Stannis."

Stannis turned from the red woman, but it was Lady Selyse who replied.

"King Stannis. You forget yourself, Maester."

"He is old, his mind wanders", the king told her gruffly. "What is it, Cressen? Speak your mind."

This conversation quickly comes to Cressen blurting out his words about gods being uncertain allies and R'hllor having no power here, - something borderline treason, or "folly" as Melisandre calls it. Melisandre, being more apt in diplomatic games, (or perhaps just knowing that the fate cannot be avoided), suggested to accept that as a fool's joke. Selyse supported her, Stannis after some contemplation ("his jaw worked silently") agreed. That was offensive, surely that would be effective to make anyone less stubborn to retire to his cell. However, as we know, Cressen was on a mission, so it all ended as it ended.

I agree with you GallowsKnight that ironically, all these attempts to alienate Cressen only made his resolve stronger. The Maester was stubborn, and the more Stannis made him feel useless, the more Cressen tried to prove the opposite. Stannis is not the best of mind-readers. But that particular case of (unusually) offensive behaviour was in line with his general intention to isolate Cressen, at least until Melisandre would leave Dragonstone with the host.

That's just how I see that scene, ever since the first time I read the book. I had no idea at the time as to who Stannis was, and had absolutely no reason to whitewash his behaviour, so it is not whitewashing as some posters here suggest. In my mind, that was harsh, but not cruel, all in all very in-character.

[Nictarion]

Stannis actually calls him "ill and confused" not useless. At any rate, I'm curious to know your opinion on what exactly does one should call a maester who cannot tend his ravens. Or even walk without assistance. Spry? Healthy? Should Stannis have signed Cressen up for the Dragonstone Marathon?

Maester Aemon was a hell of a lot older than Cressen, and he was still quite useful. It wouldn't be that hard to have someone assist Cressen with the ravens, and getting around and what not.

[Datepalm]

Mod:

All right, kids, cut out the sniping. You can insult Stannis all you like on this forum. You can insult any character all you like on this forum. What you cannot do on this forum is make whingy passive aggressive comments that derail threads and pretend that it's an argument. That's just weak. If this continues, thread dies.

Cheers

Datepalm

[David Selig]

Well actually, he doesn't. His burning people is always for exceptional circumstances, usually treason, or, more recently, cannibalism. Burning people alive was what Aerys did. You know, that guy Stannis starved to overthrow?

That's quite funny given that Aerys was burning people for treason too. But Stannis is a special case, obviously.

[The Drunkard]

That's quite funny given that Aerys was burning people for treason too. But Stannis is a special case, obviously.

I'm sure stripped of context the similarities must be hilarious. Aerys was burning people for crimes they didn't commit, or otherwise for minor reasons that weren't deserving of the death penalty. The five/six people Stannis burned all confessed to their crimes or were otherwise guilty beyond all doubt (Alester confessed, 'Mance' was renowned for his crime, the four cannibals were caught in the act). The burning itself is a cruel way to kill them, but under almost any of Westeros' rulers they would've been executed in one way or another. Not so for any of the people Aerys burnt.

[James Arryn]

I'm sure stripped of context the similarities must be hilarious. Aerys was burning people for crimes they didn't commit, or otherwise for minor reasons that weren't deserving of the death penalty.

Wrong again. He had exactly one person burned to death: Rickard Stark. His son was strangled. His son was absolutely guilty of high treason and if Rickard was defiant in his defence of him, so was he.

The Mad King burned far fewer people than Stannis. None for religious purposes.

(I'm actually going to have an 'Aerys, Stannis, or Both?' thread with about 40 questions. I don't think you'll like it, but for neutral observers it should raise interesting questions.)

[Gargarax]

But he does shield Cressen from mockery. Repeatedly, in fact:

"I will not have you kill yourself in my service.”

“He is old, his mind wanders,” “What is it, Cressen? Speak your mind.”

“You go too far, woman,” “He is an old man, and he’s served me well.”

No, he calls him "ill and confused." Because...well, he is ill and confused. I don't know where people get this "useless" idea from.

He does not shield him from the first insult, only from the second. It sure was nice of him to stop there, but the damage was done. The first quote has nothing to do with mockery. The second concerns Cressen not calling Stannis "Your Grace". His mind does not wander there, on the contrary: earlier Stannis accused Cressen of mocking him when he adressed him as "Your Grace", which explains the quote here.

And how is Cressen confused? Really, tell me, because unlike Stannis whose mind we can't read because he is not a POV character, we can read Cressen's, and there is nothing that suggests that he is confused. He is old, that is all. As Nictarion said, so was Aemon, and the NW still saw his use. The 'dismissal' of Cressen might even be interesting as a contrast scene to Barristan's dismissal, which was just as uncalled for. I agree that Stannis may have thought to have Cressen's best interest in mind, but not being open about that shows his lack in social and communication skills.

[E-Ro]

Wrong again. He had exactly one person burned to death: Rickard Stark. His son was strangled. His son was absolutely guilty of high treason and if Rickard was defiant in his defence of him, so was he.

The Mad King burned far fewer people than Stannis. None for religious purposes.

(I'm actually going to have a Aerys, Stannis, or Both? thread with about 40 questions. I don't think you'll like it, but for neutral observers it should raise interesting questions.)

Nope, either your bullshitting or completely forgetting things. Aerys burned tons of people alive, it was his favored form of punishment, afterwards he would get horny and rape his wife. The act of burning people alive turned him on.

Lord Denys immediately surrendered and begged for mercy, but in his fury Aerys had him immediately beheaded. His rage still not sated, the king ordered House Darklyn utterly destroyed, along with House Hollard, which had sided with them. Every last member of both families was tortured at excruciating length before being burned alive,

there are more examples of aerys burning people, but I cant be bothered to find them right now.