"Everywhere the dragons danced, people died" Daenerys trace of death

[SeanF]

I would suggest her death toll at Astapor was c.1,000 - 2,000 and at Meeren closer to five figures.

She has to bear a share of blame for the chaos and final destruction of Astapor, and the outbreak of the Pale Mare, but others share the blame, and they weren't deliberate actions on her part.

[SeanF]

That's a lot for a medieval-ish city in a desert area, especially when modern day Athens has a population of 780,000.

You can actually compare the population sizes of large European cities in medieval times here. Apart from Rome (1.5mil in 100 AD), Sarai (600k over two cities) and Constantinople (500k-700k), none of them come close.

And these are all capital cities, while Astapor and Meeren are independent city states and thus unlikely to house several hundred thousand people.

All three cities have a substantial hinterland. My impression is that Meereen, at least, has a big population. I suspect it's at least as big as King's Landing or Oldtown.

[franbatista123]

That's a lot for a medieval-ish city in a desert area, especially when modern day Athens has a population of 780,000.

You can actually compare the population sizes of large European cities in medieval times here. Apart from Rome (1.5mil in 100 AD), Sarai (600k over two cities) and Constantinople (500k-700k), none of them come close.

And these are all capital cities, while Astapor and Meeren are independent city states and thus unlikely to house several hundred thousand people.

Yeah you're probably right. At max i'd give it 200k, but it's probably around the 100-150k mark. I got the impression that Meeren was almost as big as KL when i read the books, thus such a high number. Who knows, perhaps it is?

[Winter's Knight]

I'm really confused - why is this topic only about Daenerys? What about all the people killed by Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, etc.?

Because Daenerys is an evil, evil lady who bathes in the blood of a thousand virgins before sunrise and has fried puppies for breakfast.

[Winter's Knight]

All three cities have a substantial hinterland. My impression is that Meereen, at least, has a big population. I suspect it's at least as big as King's Landing or Oldtown.

Yeah you're probably right. At max i'd give it 200k, but it's probably around the 100-150k mark. I got the impression that Meeren was almost as big as KL when i read the books, thus such a high number. Who knows, perhaps it is?

How would it support so many people when it's only trade is slaves?

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Because Daenerys is an evil, evil lady who bathes in the blood of a thousand virgins before sunrise and has fried puppies for breakfast.

Because she is a woman. That and because she was god awful boring lately.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

A lot

Lesson #1 - don't fuk with Daenerys Targaryen.

[Winter's Knight]

How would it support so many people when it's only trade is slaves?

Also, Meereen suffered a plague in GoT and so probably has a lower than normal population.

Because she is a woman. That and because she was god awful boring lately.

I don't think the last bit applies-people don't hate on Tyrion or Bran because they're boring.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm really confused - why is this topic only about Daenerys? What about all the people killed by Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Robb Stark, Stannis Baratheon, etc.?

most of them at least have a just cause for war. Dany just wanted a free army.

[C0bR]

Considering that tens of thousands people followed her from Astapor, another tens of thousands stayed there, I would estimate the death toll of the initial Astapor Genocide to be at the very least around 30k men, even if the slaves made some insane percentage of the original population (over 45%).

It was probably more though.

[Winter's Knight]

most of them at least have a just cause for war. Dany just wanted a free army.

"Freeing slaves" is not a just cause for war.

[Sansa_Stark]

"Freeing slaves" is not a just cause for war.

especially when you approve of slavery when it benefits you. I agree.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

"Freeing slaves" is not a just cause for war.

Yes it is, and why did you put it in quotes. Are you implying that she didn't free slaves?

[PatrickStormborn]

most of them at least have a just cause for war. Dany just wanted a free army.

Yes, she wanted a free army so she got embroiled in a war with an entire continent; a war that has spanned potentially close to 2 years at this point.

That's some great critical thinking right there. Bravo. Impressive.

But seriously - which of those characters had a just cause for war? Did Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon have a justifiable reason to bring fire and blood to the Iron Islands, after they themselves had rebelled against the monarch? Was Robb Stark's war of vengeance a justifiable reason to pillage the Westerlands and leave the Riverlands and North undefended? Did Tywin Lannister have any justification in sacking a city that had opened its gates to him? Did he have a justification for sending soldiers to burn, pillage and rape across the Riverlands?

Do I need to continue?

[Welease Woger]

Yeah, I can accuse Daenerys of being awfully boring lately, but as for her death toll, well she is not worse than Harren Hoarse, Aegon Targaryen and Robert Baratheon. They are conquerors, and when such people play the game of thrones, the smallfolk always suffers greatly. At least she has good intentions, although they often have backfired.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Yes, she wanted a free army so she got embroiled in a war with an entire continent; a war that has spanned potentially close to 2 years at this point.

That's some great critical thinking right there. Bravo. Impressive.

But seriously - which of those characters had a just cause for war? Did Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon have a justifiable reason to bring fire and blood to the Iron Islands, after they themselves had rebelled against the monarch? Was Robb Stark's war of vengeance a justifiable reason to pillage the Westerlands and leave the Riverlands and North undefended? Did Tywin Lannister have any justification in sacking a city that had opened its gates to him? Did he have a justification for sending soldiers to burn, pillage and rape across the Riverlands?

Do I need to continue?

just a point. Balon wanted the old ways back. That means piracy so Ned and Robert war against him is 100% legit.

[Nyrhex]

It will take some time, but no, Danny takes first place definatly. None of the others got close to that.

Robert is not responsible for the death count in RR. That fault lies with Rhaegar and Aerys. he is also not responsible for the deaths in the Greyjoy rebelliion, as that fault lies with Balon. One could argue that his rule led to the WOT5K, but that's a bit more complicated. The rest are also problematic.

If we count battles, than we get:

Dany: ~100,000?

Everyone who died due to Drogo going west for her, pillaging and taking slaves to finance the invasion.

Everyone in Astapor. Dany killed the free population over 12, and the weak government and lack of soldiers since they went with her brought masscare for the rest and the freed population.

Everyone who died due to the Pale Mare, since she is the reason the conditions to it forming happened.

Everyone who died from the insurgency in Meereen, since she waged a war of aggression on them.

Everyone who died from her war with the slaver's coalition.

Tywin: ~50,000?

Rayens-Tarbacks: Two minor lords. Hundreds or low thousands on the field. Both families extinct.

King's Landing: Thousands.

Green Fork: ~500 of his, ~5-6,000 of Roose.

Burning the Riverlands: Tens of thousands?

Fords: 1-3,000 losses.

Blackwater: Hundreds (Was on thenorth bank, where Stannis only managed to send few hundreds. Tywin arrives after there are no more ships and the bridge is destroyed).

Sending Tarly to engage Glover and Tallhart (iffy): 3-4,000.

Stannis: ~25,000?

First Siege of Storm's End: Few

Dragonstone: Few.

Fair Isle: A catastrophe that has left nearly every household on the Iron Islands mourning thier dead (as we keep reading in Greyjoy POVs): Thousands. Entire Iron Fleet.

Great Wyk: Thousands? Largest island and all.

Second Siege of Storm's End: Renly, Penrose, some Rainbow guard that Loras kills (3 IIRC?).

Blackwater: 1,600 City Watch. ~20 war galleys (~2,400), ~40 Myrish sellsails (4,000 tops), ~70 cogs and fishing skiffs (~1,000?). Landing party of ~5,000 men. Hundreds that crossed burning bridge. Out of a mounted force of 16,000 over half (8,000+) switched sides, 1,500 left on the boats, and more than 1,500 were left stranded. ~3-4,000 Of the mounted force. High hundreds/1,000+ for the Tyrells.

Castle Black: 1,000 Wildlings killed, the same wounded and captured. Few of Stannis.

Deepwood: ~200 Ironborn, few of Stannis.

March to Winterfell: Hundreds.

Siege of Winterfell: To be continued :devil:

Boltons: ~15,000?

Green Fork: ~5-6,000 of Roose, 500 of Tywin.

Harenhall: Lannister garrison of Harenhall. A hundred?

Winterfell: ~2,000 Northmen, few of Ramsay, less than a score of Ironborn.

Duskendale: ~3,000 Northmen.

Ruby Ford: 2,000 (+600?).

Red Wedding: Robb's ~4-5,000?

Moat Cailin: 63 Ironborn.

Siege of Winterfell: To be continued :devil:

Robert: ~10,000?

Gulltown: Loyalists defenders. Hundreds?

Summerhall: Three rebel lords weakened. Hundreds?

Ashford: Minor skirmish. Hundreds?

Bells. Commanded a small band that hid in houses. Dozens of his? Hundreds/Low thousands of the enemy (combined with what Ned, Hoster and Jon killed)?

Trident: Thousands?

Pyke: Hundreds?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

These threads usually end in tears

[Winter's Knight]

Do you people know what genocide fucking means? It is 2000 Muslims murdered in three days, it's the holocaust, the Rwandan genocide, the Armenian genocide, the state sponsered 1984 anti-Sikh riots in Punjab.

Genocide'd be the thousands of lynchings that took place across America see?

Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, caste, religious, or national group"

So, if Dany had said "Kill every last member of the slaving families", you might have a case.

[Lummel]

What is the point of this thread? Is this just a camouflaged Daenerys' hate thread?