"Everywhere the dragons danced, people died" Daenerys trace of death

[Nictarion]

Ya know nothin', PatrickStormborn.

Dany asks Drogo to go west. And Drogo was persuaded. Dany is the reason Drogo marches west.

Q.E.D.

Nope. Drogo only decided to invade Westeros because of the assassination attempt.

[complexphoenix]

Being a ruler in a medieval setting means causing deaths. All the ruler's wars, executions, and mistakes cause deaths. There's not a single king or lord anywhere in the series who doesn't have blood on his/her hands. Because the setting and the institutions in contains make it INEVITABLE.

[Nyrhex]

That is not what happens. Drogo marches west when Robert fails to assassinate Daenerys. That would have happened regardless of whether Daenerys herself had ever asked him to go west.

So Drogo would go to invade Westeros even if his wife was not both begging him to, and claimed to be the rightful heir? I call bull.

Drogo had killed many more before marrying Dany. And she did ask him to stop with the rapes.

So? I did not count people he killed before marching west for Dany, and I did not include the rapes. OP asked how many people died because of Dany. I gave an educated guess.

It is not my intention to start a smear campaign, to call her a monster, to say that "lol she sux in warz". I gave an educated guess on how many people died because of her actions. A side response to someone who mused how is this not some amazing data to pull as proof to one of the threads that rank commanders led to a derailing of the thread. Number of casualties is not how one measurs commanders. The vast majority of the people who died as a resulty of Dany's actions did not die in battle. I am simply counting how many people met an untimely death due to her actions.

[Nymeria Stone]

Deaths caused by Dany were meant to be polemic. The entire slavery issue was designed to make us reflect about it. Are the slaves better as slaves or as free men? Giving them their freedom will help them or were they better without it? The bed slaves may prefer to remain slaves rather than working with agriculture. However, the pit slaves were spared of an eventual death. It's a matter of seeing both sides.

She made horrible mistakes, Astapor being the major one (and I don't think I can really forgive her for it). Also, if all she wanted was the Iron Throne, she would have left to Westores right after getting the Unsullied. The "all she wants is to be queen" argument is invalid. Stannis, Robb, Renly, Balon, Euron... They all wish (or wished) the throne as well. It's the innocent who suffer when the high the lords play the game of thrones....

[PatrickStormborn]

So Drogo would go to invade Westeros even if his wife was not both begging him to, and claimed to be the rightful heir? I call bull.

He only decided to invade Westeros to get vengeance against Robert. It had nothing to do with Dany "begging him", and it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with her "claim[ing] to be the rightful heir" - and do you know why? Because she wasn't even claiming to be the "rightful heir". She wanted the throne for her son, not for herself. Her chapters are incredibly straightforward in AGoT, so I find it strange that so many readers have problems understanding her very clear motivations.

But no, I guess it's easier to paint Dany as a power-hungry queen even if it contradicts the text.

[RoamingRonin]

So Drogo would go to invade Westeros even if his wife was not both begging him to, and claimed to be the rightful heir? I call bull.

You can't be serious. Drogo does an entire speech on how he's going to invade and why right after the assassination attempt.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

So Drogo would go to invade Westeros even if his wife was not both begging him to, and claimed to be the rightful heir? I call bull.

If you think Drogo would have not have continued the Dothraki way regardless of what Dany asked for that's bull.

Dany didn't say let's go to Westeros and on the way lets do a lot of murder and rape.

Dothraki kill people a long time before Dany was even born, you can't blame their way of life on her.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

She wanted the throne for her son, not for herself.

And how that's a big difference? Her son isn't even born yet, there is no "her son", there is the idea of her son as king. And this is basically what every Lord in Westeros wants. To secure his position, so that the dynasty continues. But this is no more than a different wording, you can't just claim "Dany didn't want power, she wanted her son to have power"

[Nyrhex]

You can't be serious. Drogo does an entire speech on how he's going to invade and why right after the assassination attempt.

Yes. And he made that speech because Dany has been begging him to go to Westeros and he finnaly got a good reason (in his mind) to agree. Cause and effect. Dany is the reason he goes west, and so the causalties there are because of her. End of.

He only decided to invade Westeros to get vengeance against Robert. It had nothing to do with Dany "begging him", and it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with her "claim[ing] to be the rightful heir" - and do you know why? Because she wasn't even claiming to be the "rightful heir". She wanted the throne for her son, not for herself. Her chapters are incredibly straightforward in AGoT, so I find it strange that so many readers have problems understanding her very clear motivations.

But no, I guess it's easier to paint Dany as a power-hungry queen even if it contradicts the text.

1. He went to conquer a continent. If that's Dothraki idea of vengence for any other woman, I agree with you. However, I highly doubt that if it was any other woman he would have done the same.

2. She wanted the throne for her son. And Drogo said he will give it to thier son. What's the problem?

3. I'm not trying to portray her as a power hungry queen. She is a power hungry queen. She is queen of Meereen. She does want to get a continent she never saw becaue she feels like she is entitled to it. This is fact. I am trying to explain why if person A asks person B to kill Person's C-Z, that makes person A responsible as well.

If you think Drogo would have not have continued the Dothraki way regardless of what Dany asked for that's bull.
Dany didn't say let's go to Westeros and on the way lets do a lot of murder and rape.
Dothraki kill people a long time before Dany was even born, you can't blame their way of life on her.

1. I do not think that Drogo would invade a continent if it was any other woman, and if Dany has'nt been asking him this for the past half chapter.

2. I never said that Dany asked him to kill and murder. If you ask someone to give you a crown, you are responsible if that someone attacks villages to get slaves he could sell for ships to get you that crown.

3. And I'm not. I'm blaming a specific amount of people who died from the moment Drogo started west, and until he died, who died for Dany's cause, on Dany. The rest are not her fault.

[Veltigar]

Potential spoilers for TWoW.

I pretty much agree with you there. But I don't think Meereen will be "put to the torch" after Dany returns... In contrast, I think the city will be destroyed in the Battle of Fire (perhaps influenced by Moqorro - after all, without Meereen, Dany will be more likely to move on to Volantis).

I believe the decision to burn Meereen down will be a very conscious decision from Dany's part. Since the city has no other way to survive than the slave trade it can't be allowed to keep on existing. It's not enough to just force every citizen out of the city, since the city itself would still be a great base for slavers.

Another reason why I think she herself will burn Meereen is that it will mimick the burning of Nymeria's ships. It shows her people that there is no way back and it sets of a signal to her enemies that she is not to be messed with. Another practicle reason why she would put the city to the torch is because that would be a good way to get rid of all the bodies of the fallen in and outside of the city. I do believe however that one body in particular (that of Missandei or Barristan or Jorah. I'm inclined to say Missandei) will be the cause of the idea of a funeral pyre. For instance if Missandei dies, burning the city with Missandei body would be a great way to honor her (the greatest pyre ever) and it would show dedication to honor the memory of Missandei and for the dream she believed in.

it's also something that I believe GRRM would very much love to write since it would show two parts of her identity that will be very important to Dany in the rest of her storyline (her identity as warrior queen like Nymeria and her identity as Targaryen because the city is set to blaze). At the same time this deed would be somewhat ambiguous. The (imo) misguided people who believe that Dany will become like her father will call the burning proof of their thesis. When those people later on see how wrong they were they'll feel the gutpunch of their wrong interpretation even harder :D

I have actually kind of written a theory which features this burning and other events that I think will happen in Dany's arc in tWoW. If you have time I would appreciate it if you gave it a look :) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97183-a-political-match-between-jon-and-dany-focussing-on-essosi-expansion-long-with-summary/

[DaarioKnowsBest]

1. I do not think that Drogo would invade a continent if it was any other woman, and if Dany has'nt been asking him this for the past half chapter.

2. I never said that Dany asked him to kill and murder. If you ask someone to give you a crown, you are responsible if that someone attacks villages to get slaves he could sell for ships to get you that crown.

3. And I'm not. I'm blaming a specific amount of people who died from the moment Drogo started west, and until he died, who died for Dany's cause, on Dany. The rest are not her fault.

1) your accusation is not invading a continent, your accusation is that the Dothraki way of murder, rape, and pillage is Danys fault.

Like Drogo won't kill as much if Dany didn't want him to go west, that's bull.

2)Drogo goes to give himself and his son a crown.

3) Dothraki society is not Danys fault, they killed for a long time before Dany was born.

[grand old duke of stark]

The question was how many HAS... not your speculation. The thread was clearly set up to do some Dany hating.

Agreed. This is war and conquest we're talking about--if it were someone else, especially someone male, I don't think we'e be hearing as many complaints. "Collateral damage" is an unfortunate and glib phrase, but there are innocents who are inadvertently killed during most wars and campaigns IRL, which may in and of themselves be just and justified. Dany may have made some mistakes, but I think most of it was unavoidable unless she had headed straight for Westeros. She probably should have gone straight there, but the dragons were young and she had some liberating to do. I am not particularly a Dany fan, but I think she gets a lot of hate here and considering her age, lack of experience, and motives, I think she deserves are more balanced appraisal.

[juanml82]

She will be just another player in a war that's been going on for years across an entire continent. Its not like Westeros is in some great time of peace and the crazy dragon lady going to come and ruin it.

Edit: Beaten to my point by TMO.

And if referring to herself as a dragon makes her crazy, then every character that refers to themselves as a wolf, or a lion is to.

Are Jaime and Tyrion insane for calling themselves lions? Is Arya insane for calling herself a wolf? Are the Greyjoys insane for calling themselves krakens?

Well, none thinks stuff like

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

[SeanF]

I can't predict what will happen in TWOW. But, I can't fathom the logistics of transporting 100,000 + people from Meereen to Westeros.

[RoamingRonin]

Yes. And he made that speech because Dany has been begging him to go to Westeros and he finnaly got a good reason (in his mind) to agree. Cause and effect. Dany is the reason he goes west, and so the causalties there are because of her. End of.

As if Dany sent the assassin after herself.

Well, none thinks stuff like

Yeah. They do, actually. Even Tywin Lannister had one of those moments.

But at least Dany walks into a funeral pyre and proves fire can't kill a "dragon".

I just lol

[TheMysteriousOne]

Well, none thinks stuff like

They do actually. For example, Arya constantly tells herself that she should behave like a wolf should, Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf.

Dany lived her entire life brainwashed and indoctrinated by Viserys, who constantly told her that he was a dragon, and therefore meant to be feared and respected. Turns out that he was the opposite, and Dany was stating it. You don't actually believe that Dany meant that literally?

[Nyrhex]

1) your accusation is not invading a continent, your accusation is that the Dothraki way of murder, rape, and pillage is Danys fault.

Like Drogo won't kill as much if Dany didn't want him to go west, that's bull.

2)Drogo goes to give himself and his son a crown.

3) Dothraki society is not Danys fault, they killed for a long time before Dany was born.

1. No, that is your strawman argument even after several attempts on my side to correct your misconception. I said that I find the specific people killed on Drogo's expedition west to be partially Dany's fault. Not all the people killed by Dothraki, just those on Drogo's specific last killing spree.

2. Dany asks him to invade so her son will sit the throne. Drogo says he will invade and give thier son the throne. I don't get where you made the part about making himself king, as it is not in the text, and I repeat that if Dany asks and Drogo complies, it still makes Dany the one who triggers it.

3. IS THERE A SPECIFIC PART OF MY POST THAT YOU DO NOT GET?

A. DROGO GOES WEST BECAUSE OF DANY.

B. DROGO PILLAGES TO GET SLAVES.

C. DROGO WANTS SLAVE TO PAY FOR THE INVASION.

D. THE KILLING AND SLAVE TAKING IS DONE FOR DANY'S CAUSE.

I m NOT blaming thier entire society on Dany. I am blaming the enslavement and killing of those who resisted on Dany, because she is the reason Drogo goes there and does those things.

[Nyrhex]

As if Dany sent the assassin after herself.

Dany gives Drogo the idea to invade Westeros. He refuses. After the attempted assasination, he agrees. Dany is still the reason he chose to react in this way.

I am realy getting tired of this. We are simply going back and forth. I'm out.

[SeanF]

He only decided to invade Westeros to get vengeance against Robert. It had nothing to do with Dany "begging him", and it had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with her "claim[ing] to be the rightful heir" - and do you know why? Because she wasn't even claiming to be the "rightful heir". She wanted the throne for her son, not for herself. Her chapters are incredibly straightforward in AGoT, so I find it strange that so many readers have problems understanding her very clear motivations.

But no, I guess it's easier to paint Dany as a power-hungry queen even if it contradicts the text.

Well, it was both. Dany urged him to invade. The assassination attempt was the catalyst that persuaded him to do so.

It's only when Dany witnesses the horrors of the sack of the Lhazareen town, that she realises what warfare entails, and she's appalled. She then spends the next two years switching back and forth between embracing fire and blood, and trying to spare innocents. By the end of Dance, she's reconciled to the fact that innocents are going to die.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

They do actually. For example, constantly tells herself that she should behave like a wolf should, Meat was meat, and men were prey. She was the night wolf.

Dany lived her entire life brainwashed and indoctrinated by Viserys, who constantly told her that he was a dragon, and therefore meant to be feared and respected. Turns out that he was the opposite, and Dany was stating it. You don't actually believe that Dany meant that literally?

Starks are no fair comparison because they had warging expirences. Of course theyll had some of their wolves traits.