Best to Worst Mothers in ASOIAF

[David Selig]

Who defines what a stepmother is?

Me. I am the world's ultimate authority on this term, appointed officially by the UN and UNICEF.

Any other questions?

[Alayne's Shadow.]

well yeah. I am just stating why i think Jon is better than anything Cat related.

But if your point is personal, you can't argue against Cat. It's subjective. So, what you can say is that your prefer Jon over Cat's children, not that she's a worse mother because you do. I'd pick Sansa over Jon any day, as I think she's interesting and her journey is the best and she's realistic and the best, and Jon's a straight up hero that I don't find empathy because his decisions and mistakes are so far off from reality. That doesn't make Ned a worst parent than Cat, because I prefer their daughter than the one that is only Ned's son.

[Minsc]

I think that you are right. But I think that happens because he had to grow up faster, because he had to take care of himself.

Yeah, it must been tough for Jon to grow up with only Ned Stark, Wylla, Old Nan, Maester Luwin, Rodrick Cassel, Benjen Stark, Jeor Mormont, Donal Noye, Maester Aemon, and Qhorin Halfhand.

Truly, besides all those people Jon really struggled alone to take care of himself.

[Mladen]

I don't think that there is a difinition for a children who was born out of the wedlock and lives with his father, rather than stepfamily and since Jon is a part of that stepfamily and Cat is the mother of that family, Cat is his stepmother.

And yes Cat lived with Jon, saw him growing up and did what she did against him his whole life. For me that is the worst step parent in the books. I could only choose one and in my opinion Cat is worse that Cersei.

He wasn't just born out of wedlock, he was born during the marriage. There is a great difference you simply choose to ignore. Again, hate Catelyn as much as you want, but please, don't go against logic.

As GRRM himself said, Cat never abused Jon, she just draw a line between him and her. She didn't want to have anything with him. You are free to choose, but according to GRRM, and everything that is written in the books, you are wrong. And that is not just my opinion, it is a pure fact.

Who defines what a stepmother is? Maybe Ned didn't send Jon away I don't know, because he promised to Lyanna that he will take care of him? After all why Ned should do that? He should punish a child because a grown woman can't control herself? Send a child away to grew up without his family because a grow up woman's ego was hurted? We know from Jon's PoV that she did emotionaly abused him. Or that doesn't matter because his PoVs aren't Cat's PoVs?

You will lose this debate for 100th time, because GRRM specifically said "Cat never abused Jon". And to repeat --- "Cat never abused Jon". His words, not mine. Ned perfectly knew that what he was doing is wrong to Catelyn, but he had t o protect the child. But, then, after years, when that child was safe, and when he fulfilled the promise, if the child wasn't in danger, why not sending him to Howland. The answer is very simple, and to quote for the third time, if it had not reached you --- "Cat never abused Jon"

[Sansa_Stark]

When did I argue against Cat? All I said was that she is just as responsible for her brood as Ned was

[The Wolves]

Clearly Jon is better than Catelyn's godawful children.

He's not. They are all good kids stuck in awful situations. To say that Jon is better than them is ridiculous.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Who defines what a stepmother is? A. Selyse isn't Robert's wife. B. Edric grew up with Renly and stayed with Stannis for a couple of months.

Selyse wasn't Edric's step-aunt, she was only his second cousin because his mother was full-blooded her cousin. Stannis himself dismisses Edric as just a bastard. And this is coming from the highest bastard there is. Jon could dream of being Edric Storm. He's acknowledged by the King, and even so, he's still a bastard for everyone.

[Minsc]

When did I argue against Cat? All I said was that she is just as responsible for her brood as Ned was

There is a thread ranking father on the next page, why aren't you posting how Ned is a terrible father there?

[Minsc]

Selyse wasn't Edric's step-aunt, she was only his second cousin because his mother was full-blooded her cousin. Stannis himself dismisses Edric as just a bastard. And this is coming from the highest bastard there is. Jon could dream of being Edric Storm. He's acknowledged by the King, and even so, he's still a bastard for everyone.

Doesn't matter as he isn't Jon Snow, thus it would have been perfectly acceptable for Stannis to burn Edric alive like he was contemplating and Stannis would still be a just character.

[Sansa_Stark]

But I don't think they are terrible parents. Why some people feel the need to go on the offensive in Cat threads is beyond me.

[Minsc]

But I don't think they are terrible parents. Why some people feel the need to go on the offensive in Cat threads is beyond me.

So why are you posting these criticisms of Catelyn in this thread measuring motherhood?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

He wasn't just born out of wedlock, he was born during the marriage. There is a great difference you simply choose to ignore. Again, hate Catelyn as much as you want, but please, don't go against logic.

As GRRM himself said, Cat never abused Jon, she just draw a line between him and her. She didn't want to have anything with him. You are free to choose, but according to GRRM, and everything that is written in the books, you are wrong. And that is not just my opinion, it is a pure fact.

You will lose this debate for 100th time, because GRRM specifically said "Cat never abused Jon". And to repeat --- "Cat never abused Jon". His words, not mine. Ned perfectly knew that what he was doing is wrong to Catelyn, but he had t o protect the child. But, then, after years, when that child was safe, and when he fulfilled the promise, if the child wasn't in danger, why not sending him to Howland. The answer is very simple, and to quote for the third time, if it had not reached you --- "Cat never abused Jon"

But what does it matter? His father was his father. The time of his birth doesn't stop him from being his father and since we don't have an accurate definition of the boundaries of what is a stepmother she is his stepmother.

AFAIR he said she doesn't hit him bloody and insulting. There are more kinds of abuse than physical and verbal abuse.

Selyse wasn't Edric's step-aunt, she was only his second cousin because his mother was full-blooded her cousin. Stannis himself dismisses Edric as just a bastard. And this is coming from the highest bastard there is. Jon could dream of being Edric Storm. He's acknowledged by the King, and even so, he's still a bastard for everyone.

And? What's your point?

But I don't think they are terrible parents. Why some people feel the need to go on the offensive in Cat threads is beyond me.

Cat stans. Its always Jon's fault for being born and Cat is impeccable. The boy should have commited suicide because his father hurted Cat's ego.

[David Selig]

Cat stans. Its always Jon's fault for being born and Cat is impeccable. The boy should have commited suicide because his father hurted Cat's ego.

Now you are finally making sense.

[Minsc]

But what does it matter? His father was his father. The time of his birth doesn't stop him from being his father and since we don't have an accurate definition of the boundaries of what is a stepmother she is his stepmother.

You cannot just make up a definition to fit your criteria. Nowhere is it ever given that anyone ever believes that a character's bastard is their spouse's stepchild.

Though, I guess with your criteria Joffrey was always the rightful king and how it is only right that a stepson should be able to inherit from his stepfather and Robert is marred to Joffrey's mother. Thus, Ned Stark and Stannis are really traitors.

Cat stans. Its always Jon's fault for being born and Cat is impeccable. The boy should have commited suicide because his father hurted Cat's ego.

:rolleyes:

[Sansa_Stark]

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn

Here is the actual quote. George specified that he didn't verbally or physically abuse him. But abuse does not have to come from those forms. She doesn't have to say anything or hit him to abuse him.

After all, Jon feels as though Cat begrudged him food when he was young. From Jon's POV that should def. count as abuse.

[Winter's Knight]

But what does it matter? His father was his father. The time of his birth doesn't stop him from being his father and since we don't have an accurate definition of the boundaries of what is a stepmother she is his stepmother.

AFAIR he said she doesn't hit him bloody and insulting. There are more kinds of abuse than physical and verbal abuse.

And? What's your point?

Cat stans. Its always Jon's fault for being born and Cat is impeccable. The boy should have commited suicide because his father hurted Cat's ego.

Jesus, I thought StanStans were delusional. Didn't expect such denial from Jonstans.

[Mladen]

But what does it matter? His father was his father. The time of his birth doesn't stop him from being his father and since we don't have an accurate definition of the boundaries of what is a stepmother she is his stepmother.

The time of his birth actually matters. Because time of his birth prevents Catelyn of being his stepmother. We know what stepmother is and pretending that we don't know only so our opinion would have a bit of validation is really, really wrong and unproductive.

AFAIR he said she doesn't hit him bloody and insulting. There are more kinds of abuse than physical and verbal abuse.

Here we go again. Hope this time, it will stick, because I am tired of quoting this for you for 100th time --- http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042

[Minsc]

After all, Jon feels as though Cat begrudged him food when he was young. From Jon's POV that should def. count as abuse.

Theon thought that Ned was willing to execute him, aka Ned is abusive and a terrible parent.

[Winter's Knight]

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_Timeline_and_Catelyn

Here is the actual quote. George specified that he didn't verbally or physically abuse him. But abuse does not have to come from those forms. She doesn't have to say anything or hit him to abuse him.

After all, Jon feels as though Cat begrudged him food when he was young. From Jon's POV that should def. count as abuse.

Jon felt-there is no evidence that Cat had him fed less, or sub-par food. He ate with the family, amongst his brothers and sisters at the lord's table. A few cold looks hardly counts as abuse.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

The next think that people will tell you is that Jon's PoV don't count since Jon was wrong and only Cat's PoVs count. This was the answer that people gave me when I brought that up.

Jesus, I thought StanStans were delusional. Didn't expect such denial from Jonstans.

I am both.

The time of his birth actually matters. Because time of his birth prevents Catelyn of being his stepmother. We know what stepmother is and pretending that we don't know only so our opinion would have a bit of validation is really, really wrong and unproductive.

Here we go again. Hope this time, it will stick, because I am tired of quoting this for you for 100th time --- http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042

But we have no definition of the boundaries of a stepmother.

Yet again.There are more kinds of abuse than physical and verbal abuse.