Sansa Stark

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Well, if you're going to make the argument that Arya's arc isn't relatable because readers haven't ever trained to be child assassins, I could equally say that Sansa's arc couldn't possibly be relatable since readers haven't ever been held as political hostages, almost gang-raped during a riot, forced into marriages, almost murdered by their insane relatives, etc. etc. :D

If you look at Arya's arc more broadly, however, as a girl who's been bullied and mocked because she doesn't fit in, who has no interest in traditional feminine pursuits, a girl who wants to explore rather than stay within the narrow confines of her existence as a highborn lady, a girl who would rather be a political councillor than a wife and mother, as a girl who devalues her own identity because she doesn't conform to the gender norms of her time, as a girl who's smart but whose intelligence is overlooked and undervalued, as a girl who is determined to thrive in the face of difficulties and who makes her own fate, then I'd say there's a lot that I find relatable there. Personally, at any rate. :D

I guess we can agree to disagree in this subject. :D I find Arya a more fantasy-like character, because I can hardly imagine a nine-year old being what you just described. I do identify with Arya's characteristics, but I identify wya more with Sansa's journey and personality as I find it more realistic. But to each their own.

Edit: I believe, and like GRRM himself said, his characters should be at least a little bit older. I prefer Arya's age closer to her show counterpart, as in the show she's 12, I think.

[DireMaker]

THIS, THIS THIS!!!! (wanted to put the agree smiley up but it aint workin....)

This was meant for the one above, but alas i was not quick enough

[jon stark I]

Like I said as far as we saw Arya seems more developed more intelligent more talented because she had the opportunity to show those qualities.Sansa had no different event she was and is always the girl who must keep silent.Because of Sansas lack of different events or different stories she seems a dull character.If you put Arya to Sansas position Arya can't survive same goes for Sansa that is always true.

[Newstar]

Also, Littlefinger was young when he asked for a duel with Brandon, and he learned.

Couldn't the same be said of Arya, though? That she's young and that she's learning?

Do you really think Arya would be able to control herself at court with Joffrey and Cersei?

She learned to control herself at Harrenhal, an environment just as dangerous as King's Landing. She also learned to control herself around the Hound very quickly, and she hated the Hound just as much as she hated Joffrey and Cersei, although she thawed somewhat later on.

Arya would have the ability to not attack Joffrey at the first chance she had. That's the magic about GRRM - He put the girls in different paths that one couldn't really fill for the other. I don't think one bit Sansa would have survived in Arya's place as I don't think Arya would in hers.

I have to say, I think that this image of Arya as this unstoppable, uncontrollable rage machine and Sansa as this perfect angel of self-control is completely wrongheaded. Arya showed herself able to shut up and control herself very early on in the books, and indeed she wouldn't have survived Harrenhal if she hadn't (Weese smacks her around and she doesn't talk back or engage him, and Goodwife Harra hits her and she doesn't respond). Sansa lashed out at Joffrey in AGOT, sassing him in a way that would make Arya proud, until she was beaten for it and instructed by the Hound to wise up. In both cases, they learned to control themselves pretty quickly when they learned that a beating would be waiting for them if they didn't.

I find Arya a more fantasy-like character, because I can hardly imagine a nine-year old being what you just described. I do identify with Arya's characteristics, but I identify wya more with Sansa's journey and personality as I find it more realistic.

Again, speak for yourself. My female friends growing up were pretty much all Aryas: tough, outspoken, mouthy, fiercely loyal, determined, not traditionally feminine in the least, not interested in traditionally feminine paths in the least, and maybe not geniuses, but very bright. They're not waving swords around (although one got pretty into Muay Thai, and another was big into Tae Kwon Do), and they never became child assassins (...that I know of), but they're Arya to a tee.

...I gotta say, if you think that Arya's personality is "unrealistic" for a nine-year-old, then I feel sorry for you, because I knew many girls when I was that age who were just like Arya in personality, and they were awesome. (Perhaps not coincidentally, they were all in the gifted program, unsurprisingly considering that Arya seems to fit the classic profile of the gifted child in many ways.)

[DireMaker]

For sake of curiosity would any or all of them end up being lesbians, It doesn't matter in the slightest, just a curiosity for some research I am doing on the homosexual tendencies and if activities in the youth are directly correlated, or if it is more media based, genetic, etc... I mean no offense, it really is just curiosity. Feel free to ignore if it offends. But my findings for this study show alot of tom-boy types actually don't end up lesbian, as many ignorants would expect. (though the common ground in the ones that do is almost unnerving)

[Florina Laufeyson]

Littlefinger is the best example of this. When she met him, she was immediately uncomfortable and could sense he was not someone to trust. She was able to see through him for what he was better than majority of people in Westeros who just see him as this amiable character (Jaime's description of him comes to mind here). And Sansa continues to feel uncomfortable and distrusting of him ... up until the end of AFFC. In the beginning of AFFC she noted the difference between Petyr and Littlefinger and saw him as someone who lies and didn't truly have her interests at heart. But by the end of the book, she she's seem to put her suspicions of him at the back of her mind and goes along with him blindly. I don't blame Sansa - she's been isolated in the Eyrie and feels like she has no one in the world to trust anymore. Hopefully things will change in the next book now that she's heard his plans and is in a location that makes her less dependent on Littlefinger.

I'm a firm believer Sansa's arc and future is tied to the political side of the story, but in order for her to become a player she needs to rely on her observation and instincts more and less on how she wishes people to be. If she stops trying to convince herself everything is okay, then I think she can be a powerful player in the game. :)

Whos to say Sansa wont realize that Littlefinger and Petyr Baelish are in fact, the same entity. Right now, she sympathizes with him but how long with that last? When the two personalities of LF collide into the miasma of asshole that we all know, in front of Sansa, i think something is going to happen. Sansa is also learning how to use people for her own benefit in a benign manner. So theres that.

Or maybe they all are? [feminist illustrations]

Id argue that yes, that is the case.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Now on the way to KL she DID behave badly over the Micah incident and it showed a disturbing element to he character, but one that is understandable given her age. Ned ably defends her to Arya ie she must get support Joffrey, although I sometimes think Ned was trying to convince himself as much as Arya.

No that was in the show only, in the books Ned gives Arya the 'lone wolf dies' talk.

I think in general, readers are keen to side with Arya in the whole Arya vs. Sansa debate, because Arya is the wild child, the warrior-type that only truly exists in Fantasy-Books, while Sansa is the most realistic character, the one people have been at some point in their lives. Although It's not that hard to find someone that has been fooled by someone they thought they should trust, (Cersei), It's certainly hard to find a prodigy nine-year old that thinks striking the Crown Prince is a fine attitude and is on her path to become a child assassin at age eleven. Don't get me wrong, I love Arya, and I find the comparison between the two sisters silly, but Sansa is certainly the most real-like character.

I want to point out that Sansa's character type has been in fantasy stories since the beginning, princess in the tower, beauty to the beast, damsel in distress and all that. And Arya is not a warrior but I know you mean the type which is a more modern construct but it speaks to all those girls who find that relatable because women are not like a one trick pony. Now if we can avoid cliché troupes or subvert them with both types I'm happy like in Robin Hobb's Liveship Traders series or like I expect to happen with Martin in ASoIaF.

[Gwydden]

I actually find Sansa to be the only one of the Stark children I like. Arya would be second, quite a lot behind her sister. The moment I saw the latter I thought, oh, great, classic rebel girl and feminist idol. Nothing really interesting to go with her, and her arc is one of the most boring in the series for me. The fact that it seemed like we were encouraged to love her for her unruly behaviour and to hate Sansa because, of course, awesome Arya doesn't like her and she doesn't know how to use a sword nor did she want to...

I have this instinct. If I feel someone (not necessarily Martin, maybe is just the current public opinion) is trying to make me like or dislike something, I feel all the more compelled to do exactly the opposite. In ASOIAF that happens to me a lot. Some characters seem to be universally worshipped while I am indifferent to them, at best. Examples of these are Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys and Arya herself. The other side of it is that I usually like characters a lot of people hate, like Sansa or Stannis.

So in short, sometimes I feel like Arya is there to be loved and Sansa to be hated. Sometimes, in my most bitter days, I can't help but think Arya has no personality, she's just a walking stereotype barely fleshed out. I don't believe Sansa's great but any means, but all things considered I find her more likeable and interesting. So if Martin kills her before she does anything actually important, I will be annoyed, since it would look like a confirmation of my suspicions that she was intended to be disliked while Arya changed the world.

Which she has yet to do. Really, most of her chapters I find rather boring. Not Brienne or Bran boring, but unappealing nonetheless.

[grand old duke of stark]

I actually find Sansa to be the only one of the Stark children I like. Arya would be second, quite a lot behind her sister. The moment I saw the latter I thought, oh, great, classic rebel girl and feminist idol. Nothing really interesting to go with her, and her arc is one of the most boring in the series for me. The fact that it seemed like we were encouraged to love her for her unruly behaviour and to hate Sansa because, of course, awesome Arya doesn't like her and she doesn't know how to use a sword nor did she want to...

I have this instinct. If I feel someone (not necessarily Martin, maybe is just the current public opinion) is trying to make me like or dislike something, I feel all the more compelled to do exactly the opposite. In ASOIAF that happens to me a lot. Some characters seem to be universally worshipped while I am indifferent to them, at best. Examples of these are Tyrion, Jon, Daenerys and Arya herself. The other side of it is that I usually like characters a lot of people hate, like Sansa or Stannis.

So in short, sometimes I feel like Arya is there to be loved and Sansa to be hated. Sometimes, in my most bitter days, I can't help but think Arya has no personality, she's just a walking stereotype barely fleshed out. I don't believe Sansa's great but any means, but all things considered I find her more likeable and interesting. So if Martin kills her before she does anything actually important, I will be annoyed, since it would look like a confirmation of my suspicions that she was intended to be disliked while Arya changed the world.

Which she has yet to do. Really, most of her chapters I find rather boring. Not Brienne or Bran boring, but unappealing nonetheless.

I can empathise with your feelings, and you make a good point. But if you think Arya is "...a walking stereotype barely fleshed out", you haven't been paying attention to decades of movies from Disney, Pixar, and Hollywood in general. Until Mulan in 1998 and Brave in 2012, neither Disney nor Pixar gave girls a female protagonist who wasn't literally or figuratively the princess or girlfriend stereotype. Perhaps GRRM made Arya a bit too assertive, brave, loyal, pugilistic, etc. to be totally believable, but she's no stereotype.

[Castellan]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Sansa and she doesn't have to become a wiley 'player' to prove it. She doesn't have to be remarkable and outwit Petyr and lead the Vale to war to be viewed as acceptable. Personally I'd like to see her just 'outlast us all' as Tyrion says in the show, and grow up emotionally and intellectually, not suddenly jump into daring-do. Likewise, Dany is not a psychopath, a slut, a person who really needs to examine her boyfriend choices, a hypocrite, someone who could really benefit from some political science lectures from some of the posters here, or anything else along these lines. And no, she isn't a red herring GRRM has put in to suck in gullible readers who can't see how truly evil she is, she is a heroine in a fantasy novel.

I think if people can only admire a pre-pubescent girl and a woman who emulates men by being a knight, it reflects the valuing of men and male over women and female and you don't get any feminist points from me, anyway. If you genuinely can identify with these characters and it re-affirms your own choices, good, but I think lots of posters only like them because they are second best to a male character and would spit on Brienne if they met her in real life.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

I wanted to share an interesting article with the others.

There are plenty of non-Sansa threads, why don't you take your bad attitude over there?

I was not showing bad attitude. I just wanted to know the reason for a different thread . I like reading the re-thinking thread that is the reason i asked .

[GoldenHand at SnowCastle]

Couldn't the same be said of Arya, though? That she's young and that she's learning?

She learned to control herself at Harrenhal, an environment just as dangerous as King's Landing. She also learned to control herself around the Hound very quickly, and she hated the Hound just as much as she hated Joffrey and Cersei, although she thawed somewhat later on.

I have to say, I think that this image of Arya as this unstoppable, uncontrollable rage machine and Sansa as this perfect angel of self-control is completely wrongheaded. Arya showed herself able to shut up and control herself very early on in the books, and indeed she wouldn't have survived Harrenhal if she hadn't (Weese smacks her around and she doesn't talk back or engage him, and Goodwife Harra hits her and she doesn't respond). Sansa lashed out at Joffrey in AGOT, sassing him in a way that would make Arya proud, until she was beaten for it and instructed by the Hound to wise up. In both cases, they learned to control themselves pretty quickly when they learned that a beating would be waiting for them if they didn't.

Again, speak for yourself. My female friends growing up were pretty much all Aryas: tough, outspoken, mouthy, fiercely loyal, determined, not traditionally feminine in the least, not interested in traditionally feminine paths in the least, and maybe not geniuses, but very bright. They're not waving swords around (although one got pretty into Muay Thai, and another was big into Tae Kwon Do), and they never became child assassins (...that I know of), but they're Arya to a tee.

...I gotta say, if you think that Arya's personality is "unrealistic" for a nine-year-old, then I feel sorry for you, because I knew many girls when I was that age who were just like Arya in personality, and they were awesome. (Perhaps not coincidentally, they were all in the gifted program, unsurprisingly considering that Arya seems to fit the classic profile of the gifted child in many ways.)

I actually think the last poster DID speak for herself. She just said that SHE found Arya to be like a fantasy character, SHE could not imagine a 9-year-old girl like her, and that SHE could not identify with her as much as she could with Sansa. And just because your own female friends were more "arya-like" doesn't mean whoever has not been familiar with 9-year-olds like that was unfortunate. All characters in ASOIAF are "round" with both traits to like and those to dislike. It's fine if you personally happen to find Arya's personality more likable than Sansa's, but it's also ok for others to feel the opposite way and feel more connected to the latter; there's no loss/shame/misfortune in that IMO.

And plus, I dont see what's wrong with being "traditionally feminine" even nowadays. To me that term means a kind, gentle heart, loving and nurturing nature, grace, sophistication, empathy, innocence, and a lot more. While you may value qualities like "being fierce, tough, bold, sharp, etc." more, having the above "traditional feminine" characteristics doesnt necessarily make someone a dull, weak, mannered, and brainless pink-and-sugar,disney-princess type of person. No offense but that's just stereotypical...

PS: The Stark sisters were in those situations (at least partly) because of their own decisions influenced by their own different characteristics; they have been WALKING themselves to where they were step by step. So there's no point in arguing if either would survive given each other's situation, because it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to get themselves there in the first place as they would have made different choices much earlier on and got on a different path instead.

But I definitely agree with you that Arya DOES NOT = the rage machine, and Sansa DOES NOT = the perfect angel of self control. They both had to learn this in their own way.

[Woman of War]

And I love your condescending and insulting attitude, and I love that in your universe, it constitutes discussion. It doesn't in mine, so I don't feel compelled to participate further.

ETA: And yes, in my universe "physically harming" means harming someone's body....since that happens to be the definition of "physically harming". I'd love to know what it means in other, alternate universes

I hope, Annara, that you are aware that sexual abuse does not need physical violence, a person can be victim of rape or abuse even if he or she has not been harmed visibly.

Of course we all know that all those laws of our world find no application in Martinworld but what do you think a RL jury would do to a man who has a knife at a child's throat after having thrown her on her bed? Prison, I guess.

Just like Tyrion touching Sansa's breast was inacceptable even if no weapon was involved and he did not harm her. Do you really think that it's only sexual abuse if the assaulted person "fights back"? Not in my country anymore.

[Lummel]

Found this lovely article analysing Sansa in GoT.

Thoughts?

Quite a nice reading, brings out the importance of survival in playing the game of thrones.

[Woman of War]

For sake of curiosity would any or all of them end up being lesbians, It doesn't matter in the slightest, just a curiosity for some research I am doing on the homosexual tendencies and if activities in the youth are directly correlated, or if it is more media based, genetic, etc... I mean no offense, it really is just curiosity. Feel free to ignore if it offends. But my findings for this study show alot of tom-boy types actually don't end up lesbian, as many ignorants would expect. (though the common ground in the ones that do is almost unnerving)

A rather personal answer since there is no reason to be ashamed of myself and NSA knows already everything:

I have been the most tomboyish of tomboys, very sporty and brainy, reading a book a day and running faster than most boys. Actually i was different from many other girls and had my personal circle of friends who were alike. When I was a child I was totally unhappy that I could never pass for a boy since I am small and have fine features. I have always looked totally un-boyish all my life, entering puberty early, looking the pretty doll in rags. i hated my prettyness when I was a child and, well, came to terms with being nice looking when I was older :) . I was an early starter about sex. And imagine: i never fancied girlish hobbies, never envisaged to be a stay at home mum and so on. And imagine again: I chose a career job only to give it up for a far more moderate career as artist. I made choices in life!

I am mostly hetero, not that I would not fall vor Emilia Clarke any time but Coster-Waldau could be a lot of fun too :D

And imagine again: i am with the same guy, (who happens to be very tall and has grey eyes, only his voice is not rasping at all and he has manners) for ages and we have wonderful children.

No, can so far not really relate to Sansa while Arya is one of my favorite characters. Did I bust any prejudices?

Apart from that: if they ended as lesbians - so what?

[Addam_Marbrand]

I hope, Annara, that you are aware that sexual abuse does not need physical violence, a person can be victim of rape or abuse even if he or she has not been harmed visibly.

Of course we all know that all those laws of our world find no application in Martinworld but what do you think a RL jury would do to a man who has a knife at a child's throat after having thrown her on her bed? Prison, I guess.

Just like Tyrion touching Sansa's breast was inacceptable even if no weapon was involved and he did not harm her. Do you really think that it's only sexual abuse if the assaulted person "fights back"? Not in my country anymore.

the walk of shame counts

[Queen Alienor]

Hello everybody, I'm new to the thread :)

I always thought that Arya and Sansa were set up to be opposites from the beginning. Where Arya is wild, Sansa is the lady and so on. I don't think that's a bad thing, actually it is something that is very similar in my relationship to my sister. We are so completly different in many aspects, which is why I think the relationship Arya/Sansa is one of the most realistic in the whole series.

I have to say, in the beginning I loved Arya and thought Sansa a bit dumb, but as the story progressed, I found myself loving Sansa more and more. Arya is still cool, but she's just not somebody I would get along with anymore. Sansa on the other hand is somebody I could imagine being my friend.

[Ted Chang]

Just like Tyrion touching Sansa's breast was inacceptable even if no weapon was involved and he did not harm her. Do you really think that it's only sexual abuse if the assaulted person "fights back"? Not in my country anymore.

At what point did Westeros become 'your country' exactly?

[Queen Alienor]

I think in Westeros the term "sexual abuse" is not really existing. If a man rapes a maiden, then he maybe is going to get a punishment, but what Tyrion did was touch his wife. As disgusting and wrong as this is, according to Westerosi law that's completly within his rights. Marital rape is not a term there.

[Winter's Knight]

It doesn't matter-the term not existing doesn't mean the victim doesn't suffer from the trauma. Or that the perpetrator isn't awful.

Or are you telling me Tyrion thought the child hostage'd have been happy or willing to sleep with him?