David Selig Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 In a grey story would have it okay for a good character like Dany to dislike the pure Starks because they were instrumental in overthrowing her family and don't acknowledge her claim. That is not what GRRM does. Danys dislike for the Starks is very much shown as bigoted ignorance, with a character of unquestionable moral reason telling her just how wrong she is and this is the biggest reason why she is disliked; by far. Where exactly do you get this from? Since when is Barristan a character of unquestionable moral reason? He was faithful to Robert even after the murder of the Targ kids, he did nothing while Aerys raped his wife and burned people, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Started from the bottom now we here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 In a grey story would have it okay for a good character like Dany to dislike the pure Starks because they were instrumental in overthrowing her family and don't acknowledge her claim. That is not what GRRM does. Danys dislike for the Starks is very much shown as bigoted ignorance, with a character of unquestionable moral reason telling her just how wrong she is and this is the biggest reason why she is disliked; by far. If it was Tywin Lannister who was the subject of her thinking Aerys was mad nobody would even blink. It is a big deal and you know it is. There wouldn't be that many topics about Dany being evil if it wasn't. Total, Forgive my directness, but I think this is nonsense. It's very clear that the objective of this thread is to lodge yet another complaint about why many posters do not like Dany as much as you do. You're using the issue of white morality of the Starks to present your real issue in a roundabout way. In fact, you're going so far as to say the story is flawed because of the Stark's alleged white morality, and therefore, the requirement of suspending disbelief of the Stark's goodness is an imperfection with the story, and therefore, that Dany's Stark dislike is product of poor writing than something critical in her character. There are many reasons posters say Dany is evil; the fact that she doesn't like the Starks is not one of arguments to support her "evilness." This tends to be something that upsets posters, perhaps even rendering her conquest cause less sympathetic to some. This truly has nothing to do with morality and you know that. You are wanting people to agree with you that the Starks are unrealistically pure as an attempt to justify why a lot of posters do not support Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 That's because her hatred of the Starks can't really be justified. What is she suppose to hate someone who A.) Had nothing to do with her brother, nephew and niece's deaths B.) Had their father, brother and sister killed by her family's craziness C.) Despite all this, tried to stop her assasination There is no way that her hatred of the Starks could look good even if GRRM tried That he rebelled against the Iron Throne and his military support of Roberts Rebellion was crucial to its success. He then backs Robs regime. That means he has been waiting "to drive them back into the sea" as he says to Robert; sounds a lot like he might be an enemy. Thats not an unreasonable assumption to make about the men manning the ramparts. They are her enemies and have to be beaten for Dany to succeed. However, no, she is instead protrayed as bigoted, stupid and ingorant for daring to say anything bad about the Starks. Grayness went out the window with that one.Its like a giant banner saying "Daenerys is wrong!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TalalOfDorne Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Yeah the Starks arent morally pure (ETA: And neither is Tyrion FFS :bang: ) , so Im not sure how this is supposed to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melimna Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 That he rebelled against the Iron Throne and his military support of Roberts Rebellion was crucial to its success. He then backs Robs regime. That means he has been waiting "to drive them back into the sea" as he says to Robert; sounds a lot like he might be an enemy. Thats not an unreasonable assumption to make about the men manning the ramparts. They are her enemies and have to be beaten for Dany to succeed. However, no, she is instead protrayed as bigoted, stupid and ingorant for daring to say anything bad about the Starks. Grayness went out the window with that one.Its like a giant banner saying "Daenerys is wrong!". That's because she is objectively wrong. Should Ned have walked into Aerys' clutches and let himself be burned alive? He literally had no other option than to rebel, and had no hand in any deaths of her family members. Blame the situation, don't blame the Starks. If Aerys was a grey character then maybe it would be different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 This truly has nothing to do with morality and you know that. You are wanting people to agree with you that the Starks are unrealistically pure as an attempt to justify why a lot of posters do not support Dany. I would have just made a topic about that. I don't need to go round about and most of this topic was on Arya actually. It is an issue and Danys relationship with the Starks is just one small facet of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 That's because she is objectively wrong. Should Ned have walked into Aerys' clutches and let himself be burned alive? He literally had no other option than to rebel, and had no hand in any deaths of her family members. Blame the situation, don't blame the Starks. If Aerys was a grey character then maybe it would be different So the character isn't allowed to dislike the people who oppose her right to be Queen? The people who are fully intending to "drive them into the sea" and kill and butcher her unsullied and people? This is the thing. Even the slightest suggestion that Dany has reason to even identify them Starks as adversaries is considered evil. He raised his banners with the intent of putting Robert Baratheon on the throne. That is rebellion. Even the Lannisters considered taking the Targ babes under a regency but he just outright puts another family on the throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 So the character isn't allowed to dislike the people who oppose her right to be Queen? The people who are fully intending to "drive them into the sea" and kill and butcher her unsullied and people? This is the thing. Even the slightest suggestion that Dany has reason to even identify them Starks as adversaries is considered evil. Considered by whom? The author? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
total1402 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 Considered by whom? The author? By everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLostStark Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Wait for "The Black Wolf" to come out of hiding as a wild cannibal and then your arguments will be invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 By everyone.You are on a roll brah! Honestly it isnt danys Stark hate that bothers me, I mean, fine you can hate the starks all you want. I mean yeah thats cool. But the baratheons? Thats not ok, I have to draw the line somewhere and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilly Snow Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 You should change the thread title to "How dare the Starks be decent human beings! They make Dany look bad!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntraven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 So the character isn't allowed to dislike the people who oppose her right to be Queen? The people who are fully intending to "drive them into the sea" and kill and butcher her unsullied and people? This is the thing. Even the slightest suggestion that Dany has reason to even identify them Starks as adversaries is considered evil. Who considers Dany evil because she shit talks the Starks? She has done infinitely more terrible things than that. Have we read the same books? I want to get inside your head. Your line of reasoning is fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melimna Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 So the character isn't allowed to dislike the people who oppose her right to be Queen? The people who are fully intending to "drive them into the sea" and kill and butcher her unsullied and people? This is the thing. Even the slightest suggestion that Dany has reason to even identify them Starks as adversaries is considered evil. She is of course allowed to dislike the people who would deny her Queenship. But no Stark has denied her specific rule, only her father's. She can irrationally hate the Starks based on the fact that they did help to depose her family. But that's what it would be, irrational, and a flaw with Dany's character. No Stark wants to butcher her, least of all Ned who tries to stop it. Ned left the capital in outrage over what happened to Aegon and Rhaenys and had nothing to do with it. Ned didn't kill Rhaegar on the Trident, in fact Rhaegar wronged him by stealing his sister and leading to her death. And after all that he still thinks upon him favorably. She has other families that she should point her finger at, and if Barristan who is a hardcore Targ loyalist realizes that, then there isn't really much up for discussion. Viserys planted this mad notion in her head that is grounded on no evidence, much like the "knives of the Usurper are hounding us!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grand old duke of stark Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Total, The Starks are sympathetic for a number of reasons. That they are reasonably morally pure is one, but there's also the fact that they are, broadly speaking, the wronged party in all of this, and their victimization is something a reader tends to feel sympathy toward. They are also sympathetic in terms of being the first POVs we encounter-- there's a tendency to identify and "side with" those from whom we get an initial perspective. The moral purity you speak to is not the major or only reason they are sympathetic. This thread seems to be more about your annoyance that Dany's Stark hatred is something that turns the fanbase against her, right? So the issue here isn't actually moral purity, but the fact that a character's relationship to the Starks often determine how the fans perceive that character. Characters we like a lot sometimes don't get along. It's not a big deal. Why not wait to see if Dany will modify her reaction once she faces the truth about her family? And characters like Tyrion who received the benefit of the "Stark sympathy shield" do not continue getting said charity from readers when they do despicable things. Well said, Bumps! Total, favoritism for the Starks is partially a function of how GRRM structured and built his story. Also, they are a family who love each other (excepting Cat and Jon), which evokes reader empathy. And they are victims, repeatedly, which makes them even more sympathetic. But they are grey. Recall that when we first meet Ned he's about to execute an man who we readers know is telling the truth, and therefore basically innocent. Later on, he executes Lady for a crime she did not commit. But...then he gets executed for a crime he did not commit. Swings and roundabouts. As a matter of fact, most of the older Starks do things which are morally questionable; the only thing that sets the Starks apart is that they try to be fair. They agonise over decisions which they know might not be fair. You could argue that Jon heartwrenchingly separates a mother from her son, but he hesitated over that. But Arya kills, at times without thinking. UnCat is the major exception, a revenge-obsessed zombie, yet it's apparent that Cat is somewhere there too. Nonetheless, kill she does. I don't see this as a weakness in the story or in GRRM's writing. Everything is relative, and any book's cast of personages will still have lighter greys and darker greys. White or black, however, would have been a problem. Also, viz. Dany, I think her dislike of the Starks is quite understandable, but I don't think it makes her evil or even unlikeable. Frankly, if she had felt otherwise that would have been bad writing. All Barristan wants to do is get her to understand the circumstances behind the Rebellion. IMO, if she goes on resenting the Starks, so be it. But at least she'll be doing from knowledge, not from Viserys' propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 By everyone. You misspelled "no one" there, chief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin king Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 By everyone. I guess i'm not part of everyone then, as I understand exactly why Dany might have reson to dislike the starks. House Stark was one of the 3 major houses that rose against her father after all. It's not suprising that she holds some negative preconceptions about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I would have just made a topic about that. I don't need to go round about and most of this topic was on Arya actually. It is an issue and Danys relationship with the Starks is just one small facet of that. But you did make a topic about that. That's exactly what this thread is. You're arguing that the alleged pureness of the Starks strains credulity in order to say that Dany suffers in her dislike of them (and fyi, moral purity doesn't necessarily translate to character sympathy, but ok), and is a case of further poor writing. It's pretty much the same premise as your slavery thread, in which you posited that Martin must have latent slaver-sympathies because he doesn't present Dany's tenure in Meereen as superlatively perfect, i.e. "there's nothing wrong with Dany but Martin keeps fucking up her character." The fact that you spent time arguing about Arya doesn't mean that this is anything other than another "people are tricked by Martin into hating Dany" thread. Also, if there was any truth to your premise, there would be no Jaime or Roose fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I would have just made a topic about that. I don't need to go round about and most of this topic was on Arya actually. It is an issue and Danys relationship with the Starks is just one small facet of that. Well, you don't work that way and we all know it. Nearly all of your threads are framed address what you really want to say in a roundabout manner, and usually what you really want to say is that Martin is a poor writer and boohoo why doesn't anyone love Dany as much as I do. Here are a sampling of examples: Martin spent too much time on Arya because he's stupid Martin is stupid for keeping Jorah alive after his use for Dany was done, because it's all about Dany amirite Martin messed up because he gave Dany unsympathetic traits Martin wrote Arya too young because she isn't of the same level as Jaqen Martin sucks because he wrote Jon Snow in the way I wanted him to write Dany Martin thinks slavery is hot Martin is wrong for making Dany like the Dothraki Screw Martin for not making it all about Dany Screw him more for not helping Dany better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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