The Moral Purity of the Starks means the story isn't grey.

[James Arryn]

tbh, I see jon as the worst of the Stark kids. He was about to make a huge mistake at the end of dance, leaving his post to play the got. Its a good thing he was stopped by the real men of the nw.

I don't personally agree, but it's certainly arguable. I think he was definitely revolutionary in his solutions, but it's also arguable that he was in revolutionary circumstances and merely acting accordingly. But people seeing him as breaking his vows might be right, even if just in a pedantic way.

[E-Ro]

Stannis is lucky the Bolton forces in Winterfell are in disarray thanks to Mance and the Freys. Otherwise the Stannis the"rightful king" would be dead by now and Roose would secure the North once and for all.

Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it, I guess every superhero need his theme music!

I don't personally agree, but it's certainly arguable. I think he was definitely revolutionary in his solutions, but it's also arguable that he was in revolutionary circumstances and merely acting accordingly. But people seeing him as breaking his vows might be right, even if just in a pedantic way.

Interesting take. Personally I think him abandoning the wall would have been very bad, not just for the realm, but for his morality as well.

[James Arryn]

Screams from the haters, got a nice ring to it, I guess every superhero need his theme music!Interesting take. Personally I think him abandoning the wall would have been very bad, not just for the realm, but for his morality as well.

The thing is, the pink letter threatened attack, and CB has no defences from the South. So it could be argued that he was still acting entirely in defence of the Wall. Sitting and waiting for an attack they wouldn't be able to resist would not IMO be the wisest course.

I myself think his motivations are a little more complex, but I think it probable that the above was a major factor.

[Darksnider05]

Jon's beloved sister was potentially being raped and flayed his restraint is amazing. Considering his resources at the time his reaction could of been Night King 2.0 kill anyone who disagrees.

[Darryk]

You have a hilariously black and white view of what constitutes "grey".

[Penguin king]

Jon's beloved sister was potentially being raped and flayed his restraint is amazing. Considering his resources at the time his reaction could of been Night King 2.0 kill anyone who disagrees.

Jon snow the boy had a beloved sister. Jon Snow the Commander of the Night's Watch had a responsibility to his men and his sworn vows. What's that? This is a morally grey sitiuation for a Stark to find themselves in? Surely not...

[rivergirl]

Nicknames from the author suggest favouritism. GRRM has only ever called three characters by nicknames: Bran, Ned and Dany.

In the case of Bran, he has only ever been referred to as Brandon three times: twice when being introduced to newcomers (from other noble Houses) to Winterfell and thus needing to appear as stately as possible, and once by Old Nan, who proceeded to call him her "baby boy" a single comma later. I can't claim to know exactly why GRRM calls him Bran, but i suspect it's because he's just a kid and it helps distinguish him (as less powerful, too) than the multitude of Brandons before him.

Dany, on the other hand, is called Dany by GRRM and Daenerys, Mother of Dragons, etc etc etc. by everyone else.

All the Starks, save for Bran, are referred to by their full names. Even Catelyn, who is called Cat by the Ned, all the Tullys and Littlefinger. Does that suggest extra author-affection for the Starks? No. Especially since one of the two nicknamed Starks was the first major character to die. If anything, his chapter-naming suggests that GRRM wants to endear Daenerys to the readers by using her nickname.

[Jasta11]

It seems like the only way to satisfy the OP would be to make every a Roose Bolton, because of course that's way more realistic than having a world flled with people on both ends of the morality spectrum like in real life. The Starks had upstanding parents and mostly took off them, exactly how does that destroy the greyness of the series? Plus, to go in the nitty-gritty;

-Ned preserved Jon identity (if true) by a pretty shitty mean causing fractures in his family. He was also fairly judgemental and cold, and is protrayed as being completely willing to execute a guy without even hearing out his story of ice zombies coming to muderdeathkill everyone. His moral rectitude also means he gets easily tricked in the Game, and he didn't take every step necessary to ensure his family's security before playing his hand.

-Catelyn is hated by a good portion of the fanbase because of the Jon question, and many find her overly nagging, as well as blaming her for the War of the Five Kings for some reason. She also makes controversial decisions such as freeing Jaime.

-Robb was willing to start a massive war to avenge his father and we know he paid the Westerlands peasants back in kind for Tywin's destruction of the Riverlands. His careless, overly trusting nature, as well as him listening to his dick above his reason, also brought about the downfall of his House.

-Jon was a whiny git before the people of the Wall beat sense in his head, and once he's Lord Commander he isin't a gentle guy anymore.

-Sansa is disliked by many and is very selfish in AGOT. Her treatment of some other characters is also disliked by some.

-Arya is a serial killer all too willing to off a guy because the leader of her cult professional assassin order said so. Whiter than white indeed.

-Bran doesn't seem to mind possessing a person, and he's not even 10 yet.

So yeah, no, the Starks aren't whiter than white. They're better people than most in the setting, but then that's not exactly saying much. Davos, Brienne and Septon Maribald are more morally upstanding than them, for example. Tyrion, Stannis, Dany and Renly (cheifly) are seen in a sympathetic light by many despite being opposed to the Starks (and no, Tyrion not being an ass to Sansa does not make him a ''good guy''. Neither does Stannis trying to make Jon his puppet). What would you consider a grey setting, then, OP? Stories where absolutely everyone is an unlikeable jackass?

[Lady of Long Lake]

Total,

I always love reading your posts so just ignore the trolls when they come to mock. I admire your passion and well thought-out ideas, even when I don't agree with them :)

There's an underlying tone to your threads that comes through, and I find that tone of outrage and innocence refreshing to read. (I don't mean innocence as in immaturity. I mean innocence as in "lack of guile".)

[Lord Ravenstark]

You contradict yourself

Rights is not a word in medieval times, and you have to obey your king (who inherits his throne). The Northmen should not have crowned Robb, nor should he have accepted their crowns-he should have instead pledged himself to Stannis, Renly, or Tommen. Note that you said "you think". Westeros is not a democracy.

It has been pointed that what catelyn did was illegal-at least when she got to Vale and put tyrion in the sky cells. That was not honorable or just, and the entire kidnapping was reckless. Note that they planned on having a kangaroo court with SweetRobin killing tyrion.

Which, imao, as much as i love tyrion, would be hilarious-Tywin would absolutely destroy the vale. Or pay them off in thanks

Förlåt mig.

The right, of course, is not the word. It existed in medieval times but no worries. Regular kings draw their power from their lords, Targaryens had no need of it instead they had dragons . Then the dragons died and then the Targaryens were no more than ordinary kings... some of them truly bad kings. Aerys crossed the line and forgot the source of his powers. He tried to struggle in his own psychopathic way but he died. There's no "rightful" claimant to the throne, the owner must defend it from whoever dares to defy. Aerys failed. It doesn't make Ned more or less black nor the Starks must be ashamed. Rhaegar chose to dishonor the Starks, the Baratheons and the Arryns and them chose to drive out the Targaryens of power. To say the truth, their reason was away better than Targaryen's one... "I will take your crowns cause I have awesome flying lizards, they mean power and you must submit to my will" vs. "Your child rapped mine, you killed my father and brother, killed my men, dishonored my family and is wanting to my mentor send my head to you? Sorry, you're fired".

Ned is guilty from some mistakes... but driving out the Targaryens was no mistake.

[James Arryn]

Baratheons, for sure. Starks, it depends. But what did Rhaegar do to the Arryns?

[LordStoneheart]

Well, you don't work that way and we all know it. Nearly all of your threads are framed address what you really want to say in a roundabout manner, and usually what you really want to say is that Martin is a poor writer and boohoo why doesn't anyone love Dany as much as I do.

Here are a sampling of examples:

Martin spent too much time on Arya because he's stupid

Martin is stupid for keeping Jorah alive after his use for Dany was done, because it's all about Dany amirite

Martin messed up because he gave Dany unsympathetic traits

Martin wrote Arya too young because she isn't of the same level as Jaqen

Martin sucks because he wrote Jon Snow in the way I wanted him to write Dany

Martin thinks slavery is hot

Martin is wrong for making Dany like the Dothraki

Screw Martin for not making it all about Dany

Screw him more for not helping Dany better

Wow. That's quite the impressive resume.

[dmo862000]

The Starks are morally grey. Less so than most but they aren't innocent.

Let's see, Robb knowingly sacrificed how many of his own people to capture one person, Jaime Lannister? He waged War for rights or for revenge?

Catelyn was understandably in a moment of grief but out of everyone in the Twins she slits the throat of an innocent, mentally challenged person? That's classy. Oh and she arrests Tyrion, the only person who has treated her family well and puts him at the whim of her obviously insane sister and psychopathic 6 year old son.

Ned took on massive shame for Jon and all of a sudden gives up his morals and admits to treason? I understand the rationale but it doesn't make him as the OP said 'pure white.'

Shit if we know why Benjen is in the NW's I think there'd be an issue. I think the fact that it HASN'T been stated proves everything. If Benjen joined up voluntarily just for love of the family and desire to serve the 7K I can't see ONE reason GRRM wouldn't mention it.

Arya I understand her actions to an extent but I wouldn't call her morally pure. And she's a preteen.

[MasterJack]

I think some stark might turn on the darker side before the end of the series

Arya becoming a fearfull assassin
Sansa learning from LF and maybe start to like him
Bran following blindly BR even if he could tourn out to be on the evil side
Jon choosing family over duty, even when the Others are about to destroy em all
Rickon living with savage cannibal

We know each situation will/could turn out good for the stark kids, but they are all walking in the line and 1 falling into darkness isnt an impossible situation, i would be surprised if no one happens to be bad.

[LordStoneheart]

Oh and she arrests Tyrion, the only person who has treated her family well and puts him at the whim of her obviously insane sister and psychopathic 6 year old son.

To be completely fair, she has never seen him treat her family well and she didn't know Lysa had gone crazy. But the arrest itself is definitely proof of her not-moral whiteness.

[Minsc]

To be completely fair, she has never seen him treat her family well and she didn't know Lysa had gone crazy. But the arrest itself is definitely proof of her not-moral whiteness.

How is arresting someone who is a danger to your family definite proof of her not-moral whiteness?

[LordStoneheart]

How is arresting someone who is a danger to your family definite proof of her not-moral whiteness?

Honestly, I was just trying to be compromising instead of outright saying I disagreed with him. I don't fault her for it at all. Maybe I should've there's room for debate about her morality there.

[Sansa_Stark]

Let's see

Eddard- Brought death and destruction to Pyke, although this war was necessary

Robb -lolf he brought death and destruction to riverrun for vengeance, completely unnecessary

Catelyn- Kills innocent people like Jinglebell, hanging Podrick Payne(or at least attempting), doing all kinds of crazy shit. She's out of control

Sansa- Letting Marillion die and be tortured for a crime he didn't commit. Understandable, but not morally pure

Arya- lolf a psychoassassin

Bran- mind fucking hodor

Rickon- too young and is still an innocent imo

[James Arryn]

How is arresting someone who is a danger to your family definite proof of her not-moral whiteness?

Well, it can be argued as an assumption of power and threat over another person based entirely on your own beliefs and priorities. The kinds of things that lead people to see aristocratic power as corrupt and corrupting. An exercise in arbitrary power putting another person's life in danger.

I mean, especially given the ramifications and the fact that Tyrion was innocent.

[Minsc]

Well, it can be argued as an assumption of power and threat over another person based entirely on your own beliefs and priorities. The kinds of things that lead people to see aristocratic power as corrupt and corrupting. An exercise in arbitrary power putting another person's life in danger.

And doing nothing risked putting herself and her family in danger, thus it is hardly an exercise in arbitrary power.