The Moral Purity of the Starks means the story isn't grey.

[total1402]

Also, if there was any truth to your premise, there would be no Jaime or Roose fans.

Thats because Jamies actions against the Starks are distanced and the focus is on his actions during the rebellion. He also sends Brienne to save Sansa. Character redeemed and no longer hates Starks.

Yeah, right, I have this friend who thinks the Joker is this awesome and sympathetic character. People who like Roose, Ramsey and the mountain are just like that.

[E-Ro]

Martin thinks slavery is hot

omg. Yes. Thank you.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Well, you don't work that way and we all know it. Nearly all of your threads are framed address what you really want to say in a roundabout manner, and usually what you really want to say is that Martin is a poor writer and boohoo why doesn't anyone love Dany as much as I do.

Here are a sampling of examples:

Martin spent too much time on Arya because he's stupid

Martin is stupid for keeping Jorah alive after his use for Dany was done, because it's all about Dany amirite

Martin messed up because he gave Dany unsympathetic traits

Martin wrote Arya too young because she isn't of the same level as Jaqen

Martin sucks because he wrote Jon Snow in the way I wanted him to write Dany

Martin thinks slavery is hot

Martin is wrong for making Dany like the Dothraki

Screw Martin for not making it all about Dany

Screw him more for not helping Dany better

Basically, Total's life work on this forum.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Why the hell every single topic end like "Dany vil/Satannis is the evil"?

So the character isn't allowed to dislike the people who oppose her right to be Queen? The people who are fully intending to "drive them into the sea" and kill and butcher her unsullied and people? This is the thing. Even the slightest suggestion that Dany has reason to even identify them Starks as adversaries is considered evil.

He raised his banners with the intent of putting Robert Baratheon on the throne. That is rebellion. Even the Lannisters considered taking the Targ babes under a regency but he just outright puts another family on the throne?

So the people aren't allowed to choose to fight for the one they want as king? They must burn in an eternal submission and obedience?

[E-Ro]

Why the hell every single topic end like Satannis is the evil"?

Haters, you know, they gonna hate.

So the people aren't allowed to choose to fight for the one they want as king? They must burn in an eternal submission and obedience?

Submission and obedience is fun!

[total1402]

Why the hell every single topic end like "Dany vil/Satannis is the evil"?

So the people aren't allowed to choose to fight for the one they want as king? They must burn in an eternal submission and obedience?

No it would be grey if you could legitimately choose to support and understand either side. You cannot back Dany in this instance. She is wrong. Big banner waving around all the time to point it out.

[Musashisamurai]

Robb didn't crowned himself king but his men did. I think people should have the right to choose their our kings, or at least die trying.

Catelyn did wrong things, of course, but "unlawfully" is not the correct term. There's no law in Westeros, at least not as we know.

You contradict yourself

Rights is not a word in medieval times, and you have to obey your king (who inherits his throne). The Northmen should not have crowned Robb, nor should he have accepted their crowns-he should have instead pledged himself to Stannis, Renly, or Tommen. Note that you said "you think". Westeros is not a democracy.

It has been pointed that what catelyn did was illegal-at least when she got to Vale and put tyrion in the sky cells. That was not honorable or just, and the entire kidnapping was reckless. Note that they planned on having a kangaroo court with SweetRobin killing tyrion.

Which, imao, as much as i love tyrion, would be hilarious-Tywin would absolutely destroy the vale. Or pay them off in thanks

[Dr. Pepper]

Basically, Total's life work on this forum.

To be fair, he's also put in quite a bit of work questioning Martin's understanding of safe sex and the liberated woman.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

I think at this point GRRM has no control over who is seen as the good guy, there is no main character that doesn't have a fanbase, the Starks aren't that far ahead of others in terms of ppl who see them as the heroes

[butterbumps!]

Thats because Jamies actions against the Starks are distanced and the focus is on his actions during the rebellion. He also sends Brienne to save Sansa. Character redeemed and no longer hates Starks.

Yeah, right, I have this friend who thinks the Joker is this awesome and sympathetic character. People who like Roose, Ramsey and the mountain are just like that.

Oh boy, Total. Jaime is the character who actually pushed a Stark out the window. I'm pretty sure that doesn't fall under "distanced antagonism."

I think the fact that anyone dislikes Roose is a sign of poor writing in that the way he turned on the Starks is not a reflection of his hellish heart, but rather an ingrained prejudice Martin transfers from himself to the readers and likely a mistake :D

(I'll show myself out now)

[E-Ro]

You contradict yourself

Rights is not a word in medieval times, and you have to obey your king (who inherits his throne). The Northmen should not have crowned Robb, nor should he have accepted their crowns-he should have instead pledged himself to Stannis, Renly, or Tommen. Note that you said "you think". Westeros is not a democracy.

It has been pointed that what catelyn did was illegal-at least when she got to Vale and put tyrion in the sky cells. That was not honorable or just, and the entire kidnapping was reckless. Note that they planned on having a kangaroo court with SweetRobin killing tyrion.

Which, imao, as much as i love tyrion, would be hilarious-Tywin would absolutely destroy the vale. Or pay them off in thanks

Actually, rights was a word in medieval times, and the word in westeros exists as well, I have seen several characters use it. The king fucks with the lords too much, and he wont be king for long, since, you know, his power comes from them.

Also, what cat did wasnt illegal, she arrested a dude on her dads lands on a strong suspicion to question him. I dont know that it was honorable, or just, but I dont think cat had much of a choice at the time, after all, she was traveling with one guard and tyrion is just the sort of asshole to send guys after her.

As for tywin destroying the vale, I highly doubt it. they have the manpower to match him, and strong defenses.

(I'll show myself out now)

Yeah, please do.

[total1402]

@Dr Pepper

Will you stop trying to take out of context and troll everything I say so that its twisted. Everything I say is because people like you come onto my threads looking for a fight and twist my words or be provocative.

I have nothing wrong with contraception, abortion or women having sex with whoever they want. I do not care and I hate the fact that people like you accuse me of doing that.

[TheMysteriousOne]

To be fair, he's also put in quite a bit of work questioning Martin's understanding of safe sex and the liberated woman.

That thread was priceless.

[rivergirl]

What a wonderful Danystanning thread!

I for one liked Daenerys to begin with. I still think her development as a character was great, and she as a person is very interesting. I did stop sympathising with her in ADWD, but i still like to think i understand her point of view. But that doesn't mean i'm not a Stark supporter through and through. And likewise, you don't have to hate anyone else to like Dany. You don't have to bash everyone else to show how wonderful she is.

I think others have said everything i want to say in a better way than i could already, so all i'll tell you is this: if Daenerys was a hero, GRRM would written her as a hero. Because she is as grey as everyone else, she is written as grey as everyone else. Same goes for the Starks, who are all shown to make stupid and/or mean decisions.

• Ned is the epitome of loyalty to a fault. He was never cruel, but he certainly made some bad decisions which are almost universally agreed upon within the fandom.
  
• Robb, like Ned, made a widely-agreed-to-be-stupid choice by marrying Jeyne. On top of that, he never even got a POV, suggesting we were never meant to sympathise with Robb in particular.
  
• Catelyn was mean to Jon, who i think we can agree is a well-liked and generally likeable (to the reader) character. This meanness, justified or not, did not endear her to anyone. In fact, she's one of the most widely criticised characters on the forum.
  
• Sansa… i think you can see for yourself how many people dislike Sansa.
  
• Arya kills people. Plenty of people. Sometimes for very little reason. She is in no way suggested to be moral. She's a trained assassin. What about "assassin" says "morally pure" to you?
  
• Bran wargs into another human, something which is explicitly stated to be against the rules of wargs. It's bad and we know it.
  
• Rickon is… what? Six years old, at most? And even he is described as wild and wilful.
  

Hell, i think it's quite clear to everyone at this stage that Tyrion is GRRM's favourite and he's one of the most "grey" characters. Total, you don't need to bash other characters to show how much you love Daenerys. Just start a thread called "Dany is better than everyone" and cut out the middleman.

ETA: I'd like to add something to the Sansa point: There is nothing grey about knowingly giving a child medicine that makes him ill and could easily kill him.

[total1402]

That thread was priceless.

Whats said in the heat of the moment isn't meant to be taken seriously. Though TBH you people do nothing but twist my words and accuse me of filth.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

The people who flay skins and who were plotting to kill Rob with the Freys (which Arya overheard)? I think she can be excused for assuming he is an enemy.

And yes, the Boltons are portrayed like the SS. Even in ACOK we get descriptions of "grey eyed" Roose Bolton and him acting like some vampire lord. We're not meant to be affected by them being killed anymore than the Freys. They aren't even portrayed as people.

Arya didn't overheard anything about treason. She was scared of Roose and realized he was dangerous. The fact that she never included his name on her list proves that she has no idea he betrayed her brother along with the Freys.

And anyway the common soldier has nothing to do with it. I don't think he is supposed to be seen as a "Stormtrooper". Hot Pie is horrified when she kills the soldier and that shows that Arya is becoming ruthless.

[James Arryn]

Arya's becoming a cold-blooded mass murderer at 10, Bran is mind-fucking Hodor and developing a taste for human flesh ( as Summer, not jojenpaste), and Sansa is, barring the Dontos incident, completely and frighteningly self-centred to the point of psychological abnormality. Cat blamed an innocent child for his entire life while co-existing happily with the adult actually responsible.

Jon and Robb even have marks against them; Robb broke an important oath and Jon arguably did the same.

Ned comes closest, but that's assuming R+L = J. It may still prove true that he put people he cared for through emotional angst just because he didn't want to directly address his infidelity. I think this very unlikely, but it's still possible. He does show other examples of trying to avoid uncomfortable truths.

[E-Ro]

Arya's becoming a cold-blooded mass murderer at 10, Bran is mind-fucking Hodor and developing a taste for human flesh ( as Summer, not jojenpaste), and Sansa is, barring the Dontos incident, completely and frighteningly self-centred to the point of psychological abnormality. Cat blamed an innocent child for his entire life while co-existing happily with the adult actually responsible.

Jon and Robb even have marks against them; Robb broke an important oath and Jon arguably did the same.

Ned comes closest, but that's assuming R+L = J. It may still prove true that he put people he cared for through emotional angst just because he didn't want to directly address his infidelity. I think this very unlikely, but it's still possible. He does show other examples of trying to avoid uncomfortable truths.

tbh, I see jon as the worst of the Stark kids. He was about to make a huge mistake at the end of dance, leaving his post to play the got. Its a good thing he was stopped by the real men of the nw.

[Buckthorn]

Stannis is lucky the Bolton forces in Winterfell are in disarray thanks to Mance and the Freys. Otherwise the Stannis the"rightful king" would be dead by now and Roose would secure the North once and for all.

[Dr. Pepper]

@Dr Pepper

Will you stop trying to take out of context and troll everything I say so that its twisted. Everything I say is because people like you come onto my threads looking for a fight and twist my words or be provocative.

I have nothing wrong with contraception, abortion or women having sex with whoever they want. I do not care and I hate the fact that people like you accuse me of doing that.

Whats said in the heat of the moment isn't meant to be taken seriously. Though TBH you people do nothing but twist my words and accuse me of filth.

I think if you find that so many of us are twisting your words, then you are probably not doing an effective job at communicating your thoughts.