The Moral Purity of the Starks means the story isn't grey.

[Whitering]

So cheating on an insurance policy makes you evil, but Arya the multiple murderer has her morality still intact?

It is if it creates misery for others. There is a famous case in Canada where a company denied a claim for years claiming fraud over and over even though their own investigators said it wasn't. That family went through hell for over 10 years until it when to the Supreme Court of Canada and they got 1 million dollars in punitive damages the Court awarded along with their regular claim.

So, we don't know the whole story, we know what the KOM inferred to Arya, but yes, if some captain died and turned a family to begging and whoring in the streets of Braavos, then yes, he is evil by my measure.

[Addam of Hull]

Huh? She was not okay with it at all. She is constantly trying to convince herself that he is evil and only finally agrees to kill him when the KOM infers that the insurance dude had reneged on a policy, which given earlier conversations may have led her to believe that a wife and children out there were penniless because of this asshat.

So, we don't know for sure, but the KOM did infer that he was evil. The fact that Arya needed such reassurance let's us know that her morality is still intact.

Not so. Arya asks for a face from the kindly man, the kindly man says it comes with a price and that she must kill a certain man, and she agrees to it without asking questions. Later, she delves into more details, but the fact remains that she agreed to kill a man without knowing a thing about him.

[Dr. Pepper]

say what you will, he does bring us all closer together.

Kinda like the Nights Watch is brought closer together following the disappearance of Benjen Stark, the night approaches, something foul is afoot

Further evidence that the Starks aren't morally superior. Benjen has deserted in order to lead an attack on humanity of the likes the world has never seen before, except that one time a long time ago. Which was probably also led by a Stark, and then won by another Stark. Black and white, which equals grey. And they have grey eyes, and eyes are the windows to the soul, so yeah. Very grey!

[Winter's Knight]

say what you will, he does bring us all closer together.

Kinda like the Nights Watch is brought closer together following the disappearance of Benjen Stark, the night approaches, something foul is afoot

I am actually surprised at the OP's idea that all Starks are morally pure-how can any family that produced Benjen fucking Stark be anything but an incestous, unctuous, barbaric cabal is beyond me.

Benjen is obvious proof that there is something inherently wrong in the Stark blood, an evil that is entwined in their very DNA: it pushed Ned into impregnating Lyanna with Jon, caused Robb to ravage the Riverlands, Sansa to willingly sacrifice her father, direwolf and sister to her lust and the gods know what perversions Brandon and Rickard got upto but they must've been monstrous for Aerys to resort to burning them. He clearly wanted no trace of their vile, corrupted flesh left.

[bbstark]

Further evidence that the Starks aren't morally superior. Benjen has deserted in order to lead an attack on humanity of the likes the world has never seen before, except that one time a long time ago. Which was probably also led by a Stark, and then won by another Stark. Black and white, which equals grey. And they have grey eyes, and eyes are the windows to the soul, so yeah. Very grey!

you forgot grey wind, which is clearly a reference Robb's flatulence and ibs problems .... and his moral transgressions

[Lord Ravenstark]

Why people like to think that everybody in ASOIAF must do good things as much they do bad things. There are blacks and whites. Ned is a very light gray cause he dishonoured his wife with a bastard. Catelyn was shown making insane things while in distress. Robb broke a "contract" and condemned his mother and men. Sansa is a wide-eyed idealist who helped to condemn her family. Arya is so gray that is the House of Black and White.

Bran and Rickon are special subjects. Both are too young and both are spending too much time in the wildness with strangers.

Bran is for now the lighest Stark cause, while he do bad things - warging Hodor - there's no way he can know it's a bad thing... he "feels" that what he's doing is bad but he do anyway, for this he is not white... there's no base to judge him... something like blaming isolated people for cannibalism.

Rickon is a "blank", we don't know nothing wrong he did... but it doesn't mean if he do something wrong, it's very likely cause he had no base.

Further evidence that the Starks aren't morally superior. Benjen has deserted in order to lead an attack on humanity of the likes the world has never seen before, except that one time a long time ago. Which was probably also led by a Stark, and then won by another Stark. Black and white, which equals grey. And they have grey eyes, and eyes are the windows to the soul, so yeah. Very grey!

Who said Benjen deserted to lead an attack against the mankind?

[butterbumps!]

No, it's a total thread.

Which means that it's basically a forum consensus building exercise. In that everyone ends up pretty much agreeing with each other against the OP. Which I'm starting to wonder if this could be the point, like an angelic martyr sent from heaven to unify us when it seems the forum's too divided.

If I ever end up making a thread on Jaime-gate, it occurs to me that I should model the OP after one of these.

[Whitering]

Not so. Arya asks for a face from the kindly man, the kindly man says it comes with a price and that she must kill a certain man, and she agrees to it without asking questions. Later, she delves into more details, but the fact remains that she agreed to kill a man without knowing a thing about him.

She doesn't get her face until after he has inferred that the target reneged on a policy, even as late as that the KOM is giving her a chance to back out. She said she would do it, then equivocated until she got that information.

[E-Ro]

Who said Benjen deserted to lead an attack against the mankind?

ummm, have you even read the books brah?

[Warlock Vetolgar]

Okay, the main problem I see here is that Total oversimplified his point. What I infer from his posts is that the Starks, even when they do something bad, evil, or whatever, the story finds some way to absolve them. The characters themselves may not know the plot will render them this service, but in the end it doesn't matter, because our perception of them as heroic will not be altered. I'm not saying I agree with this wholeheartedly, I'm just trying to sum up Total's thoughts and make sure I understand his thoughts perfectly.

[aceluby]

The Starks grey, maybe not to the degree of the Lannisters, but they aren't w/out faults...

Rickard - Southron ambitions

Brandon - Hot headed, hot tempered, seems a lot like Jaime...

Ned - Fathered a bastard or lied and hid Jon

Robb - Went back on his word that cost him and his mother their lives

Sansa - Turned her own family in to the queen, is currently manipulating SR w/ LF to rule the Vale

Arya - Murderer

Bran - Might be helping the great other

Rickon - Just a child, but wild and responsible for Shaggy who has injured many

[Dr. Pepper]

Who said Benjen deserted to lead an attack against the mankind?

George R R Martin, in his book series called A Song of Ice and Fire: The Rot of Ben

[Addam of Hull]

She doesn't get her face until after he has inferred that the target reneged on a policy, even as late as that the KOM is giving her a chance to back out. She said she would do it, then equivocated until she got that information.

Right, but she agrees to the deed first without knowing a thing about him. Sure, later on, she finds out all these reasons that she uses to justify her decision, but I think it says a lot about her that she agrees first without asking any questions. Not only that, but her first plan of action is to kill him and one of his guards who is very likely not evil.

[Winter's Knight]

George R R Martin, in his book series called A Song of Ice and Fire: The Rot of Ben

Wasn't it the Barbarisms of Benjen? I'm not sure, I could barely get through it, it was so vile and degrading.

[The Sleeper]

George R R Martin, in his book series called A Song of Ice and Fire: The Rot of Ben

I believe you forgot the part where he soiled Melisandre's womb to the point where only shadows may be borne of it.

[bluntraven]

I prefer to think of the characters as "round" or "dynamic instead of gray. Everyone remembers 9th grade English right? The Starks are supposed to be relateable since the story blossoms out from their view points so of course they seem like the "good" guys. Most people are not criminals, meaning that GRRM safely assumed his average reader would be able to relate more to the Starks if they weren't overtly twisted and tried to do the right things.

An interesting thing to think about: Would your perception of, say, the Lannisters be different if the story was focused on them from the beginning? Maybe if the first book were entirely Lannister POVs rather than Starks we would be cheering when evil, conniving Ned received the King's justice.

[total1402]

The Starks grey, maybe not to the degree of the Lannisters, but they aren't w/out faults...

Rickard - Southron ambitions

Brandon - Hot headed, hot tempered, seems a lot like Jaime...

Ned - Fathered a bastard or lied and hid Jon

Robb - Went back on his word that cost him and his mother their lives

Sansa - Turned her own family in to the queen, is currently manipulating SR w/ LF to rule the Vale

Arya - Murderer

Bran - Might be helping the great other

Rickon - Just a child, but wild and responsible for Shaggy who has injured many

Through marriage, which was reciprocated by the Tullys. He wasn't plotting to overthrow the Targs.

Such a lad.

To keep Jon alive. That is worth lying for.

The result of the actions of evil men and not something he himself did. Bad things happening to good people is not grey.

Was misled and thought Cersei her friend. The Vale can let her take vengence and SR is consistantly portrayed as sickly, weak and better off dead.

Of bad people and is being misled/manipulated by the FM. Eventually the character will remember she is a Stark and give them the finger.

Because he is being misled.

Hes a kid and not his direwolf.

[Addam of Hull]

George R R Martin, in his book series called A Song of Ice and Fire: The Rot of Ben

I can't wait for the sequel: A Song of Ice and Fire 2: Benjen of the Others.

[Blood of the Trout]

How are the Starks whiter than white? They are clearly good and sympathetic people, but they are not morally pure by any means. Ned wanted to start a war because of Joffrey's illegitimacy, Catelyn killed Jigglebells, Jon was willing to forsake his vows in the first book to join Robb's war, Sansa helped to incriminate Marillion for Lysa's death, Arya has killed people and Bran wargs Hodor. Yes, there were attenuating circumstances or reasonable justifications surrounding some of these actions, but I don't see them as the purest of the pure.

This is to such an extent that we actually know Tyrion is a good guy because he is sympathetic towards the Starks (even though they were as prejudiced against him for being a dwarf as everyone else).

Do we? As much as I enjoy Tyrion as a character, he is far from being a good guy.

[Whitering]

Right, but she agrees to the deed first without knowing a thing about him. Sure, later on, she finds out all these reasons that she uses to justify her decision, but I think it says a lot about her that she agrees first without asking any questions. Not only that, but her first plan of action is to kill him and one of his guards who is very likely not evil.

If you protect someone evil you are evil. Too many assholes in the world to start giving free passes. I am guessing she just romanticized the organisation and assumed they only killed evil people. The only stories she has heard/seen are of evil people getting killed or them relieving suffering.