[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Ibbison from Ibben]

on the absence of dragon horns in tPatQ

The document presented to us as tPatQ is portrayed as the work of a Citadel archmaester. Moreover, it is not a "secret" work, stolen from some high security vault. It is a "declassified" account meant for public consumption. Since we know from Archmaester Marwyn that the Citadel has an anti-magic, anti-dragon agenda, we should not be taking the information regarding dragon bonding in this text at face value.

The precise mechanics of dragon rearing and hatching were (and are, in tPatQ) the most precious secrets of the dragonlords, both of Valyria and Westeros. Control of dragons was the key to their power. They would go to extreme lengths to ensure no other party leaned how to control dragons. (After all, the Valyrians originally found their dragons living in the wild, and learned to control them. The feat could be duplicated.) When Dany recounts that the Targs controlled their dragons with horns and spells (a story she heard from her brother, who would believe the information to be useless now), I think that is a piece of data we cannot ignore.

If the Citadel is anti-dragon, they would be utter fools to let genuine information about dragon control to become public, assuming they ever learned it themselves. There's a darned good reason they keep perhaps the most telling work on dragons locked up. I don't think we should take the absence of dragon horns in tPatQ as significant in the least. We're reading Citadel propaganda, and need to take that into account. (As an aside, it's interesting to note that the few maesters we see in aPatQ are portayed very favorably, and they have only a minor influence on events. We should doubt that view strongly, if we believe Marwyn.)

[Lord Varys]

Could be that he successfully wiggled out of that. If they had known for sure that he was involved they would have fed him to a dragon, wouldn't they? Perhaps Orwyle was thrown in the dungeon along with other people of dubious loyalty. I'm quite sure that this really was a major thing for Alicent, Otto, Aegon, and especially Helaena. It must have made a huge impact on the Greens at court, and started a pretty awful hunt for the people involved. Perhaps Aegon decided in one of his rages that Orwyle - who he already suspected to be a secret Black - must have had something to do with it and throw him into a cell.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

It turns out that Quentin wasn't quite as stupid as he appeared to be. The standard method of dragon taming really was walking up to the dragons and hoping for the best. The fact that this was sometimes successful paints Quentin as a gambler losing a bet, rather than an idiot winning the Darwin Award.

[Lord Varys]

Jaak,

yeah, the fact that Maegor - who clearly also aspired to sit on the Iron Throne - never rode any dragon while his father still lived strongly suggests that the Targaryens knew - or had reason to believe - that a person who had claimed a dragon could never ride another dragon. Even after said dragon died. Aenys I most likely did ascend to the Iron Throne unchallenged by his brother not only because he was five or more years his elder but also because Aenys was already a dragonrider when Aegon died whereas Maegor still had to bond with Balerion. And we don't really know how long this took - possibly a weeks or even months. Maegor only shows up on dragonback when dealing with the rebellion in the Vale. But Aenys and his administration already faced the rebellion of Harren the Red at Harrenhal. That's where Orys Baratheon - Aenys's first Hand - died.

[Sansa_Stark]

i knew quentyn was awesome this whole time.

stop hating people

[BlackDragon]

I'd rather say that Aemon was a son of Jaehaerys. We know that both Viserys and Daemon were Jaehaerys' grandchildren.Daemon was born in 81AL, Rhaenys in 74 AL.

This, and the fact that Rhaenys was considered for heir in 92AL, suggests that her father had been Jaehaerys' eldest son (or eldest living son at that moment).

I thought that Aemond Targaryen was the second son of King Viserys by his second wife Alicent Hightower.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I thought that Aemond Targaryen was the second son of King Viserys by his second wife Alicent Hightower.

That's where a lot of people get confused :P

Aemon was the father of princess Rhaenys (the Queen who never Was). Princess Rhaenys was 55 in 129 AL.

Aemond was the brother of Aegon II, Daeron the Daring and Helaena, and the second son (and third child) of King Viserys I and Queen Alicent.

When Aemond is visiting Storm's End, he is once referred to wrongly as Aemon. This is an error. It should have read Aemond. Perhaps that is where the confusion originated?

[Kienn]

It turns out that Quentin wasn't quite as stupid as he appeared to be. The standard method of dragon taming really was walking up to the dragons and hoping for the best. The fact that this was sometimes successful paints Quentin as a gambler losing a bet, rather than an idiot winning the Darwin Award.

I think it just makes them all idiots actually, just a few managed to win the lottery and live...

[Lord Varys]

We can't really know for sure, but I daresay that all the dragonseed dragonriders may have had Valyrian (or Targaryen blood). When the call goes out Rhaenyra but controls Dragonstone, Driftmark, and the other holdings sworn to Dragonstone.

Addam of Hull seems to have been born on Driftmark (Hull is a town on the island). Hard Hugh Hammer is a blacksmith's bastard. I very much doubt that he is not originally from Dragonstone. Ulf White is a man-at-arms on Dragonstone, and Nettles a girl born and bred on Dragonstone. If we assume that the population of Dragonstone has mostly Valyrian roots (the peasants there may have come with the original settlers and/or later on when Aenar moved his family to Dragonstone) we don't really need to believe or buy the story that the Targaryens produced many dragonseeds. There may have been enough Targaryen or Valyrian blood among the population of Dragonstone anyway, to make some of them dragonriders. The fact that many tried and failed who clearly had no Targaryen/Valyrian blood does not necessarily mean that those who succeeded also did have no such blood.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I meant about what Jon said in regards to WF.

Another thing I noticed is that the mother goes mad over the children came up again. Even Rhaenyra reminded me a bit of Lysa when she was clinging to all she had left in Aegon like Lysa did with SR although she wasn't described as mad then but broken.

I was speaking of Jon in regard to IT :D BUT altmently Jon is more like Rhaenyra. King's chosen heir even if it is not the tradition, who have been trained for the role.

I would say that Rhaenyra was more like Cat for me. As much as I loathe Cat, I have to admit that she loved her children more than anything. After *losing* Bran and Rickon she became stronger and decided to fight. Just like Rhaenyra after losing Jace. When Hellicent is more like Cersei to me.

That. Sad thing is, I think Aegon would have been considerably safer under Rhaenyra's rule than his own. Aemond didn't strike me like a loving brother. The whole dragon melee that had Aegon burned looked dodgy to me.

Aemond was a monster and a coward backstabber. The end. He hunted down and murdered not only an envoy who didn't fight him until he was fighting for his life, but also a child and his own nephew.

Alicent doesn't outlive all her children and grandchildren. All of her children have died by the end of the war, but at least one grandchild (Jaehaera) survives the Dance, since she was the Queen of Aegon III for a while. We don't know exactly when Alicent dies, but I think it is safe to assume she did die sooner than Jaehaera, who seems to have survives until early 142, or late 141 AL.

I didn't said that she outlived all of her children and grandchildren. But what she lost was her power, something that she seems to loved more than her children.

snip

I agree completely something that I have mentioned before, I think. In the long run Rhaenyra won.

I think that Luke should had promised Joff to Borros but I think that since he had promised not to take a part at the fighting he could thought that he should only express his mother's will.

When it comes to Helaena she also remind me of Elia. But again, I think that it was Hellicent's fault. I also liked, yes I am a terrible person, the fact that Blood killed Jaehaerys and not Maelor. It was like salt in the wound. Hellicent didn't lost only a grandson, she also lost the heir.

Also what I have to say is that in Targaryen dynasty it seems that the persons who would be great Kings were the same persons that never wore the crown. ALL HAIL DAEMON! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[The hairy bear]

On Grand Maester Gerardys:

Perhaps the easiest, simplest explanation would be that he was the Grand Maester of the Black Council, and Aegon gave him to Sunfyre after he got to Dragonstone. We know that Rhaenyras' camp made a council of their own, with Corlys as the Hand. Giving whoever was the maester of Dragonstone the title of Grand Maester would be a natural move.

On the ninteen skulls:

The exact quote from Tyrion is: "There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiffs skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long."

I'm starting to suspect that those two last hatchlings were Morghul and Shrykos. Being described "a matched pair" would fit two dragons belonging to twins. They are described as hatchlings, so the sizes match. And the "oddly misshapen" part could very wall fit into their violent deaths (Shrykos has an axe driven into the skull, and a lance is thrust into Morghul's eye "repeatedly")

Tyrion would call them "the last Targaryen dragons" as meaning "the latest to be born", not the last to die. I think this makes sense. Am I missing anything?

[RumHam]

Could be that he successfully wiggled out of that. If they had known for sure that he was involved they would have fed him to a dragon, wouldn't they? Perhaps Orwyle was thrown in the dungeon along with other people of dubious loyalty. I'm quite sure that this really was a major thing for Alicent, Otto, Aegon, and especially Helaena. It must have made a huge impact on the Greens at court, and started a pretty awful hunt for the people involved. Perhaps Aegon decided in one of his rages that Orwyle - who he already suspected to be a secret Black - must have had something to do with it and throw him into a cell.

Just to clarify, Orwyle didn't actually have anything to do with the Blood and Cheese thing, at least according to this account.

Unbeknownest to King Aegon, the Hand, or the Queen Dowager, he had allies at court as well, even on the green council … and one other go-between, a special friend he trusted utterly, who knew the wine sinks and rat pits that festered in the shadow of the Red Keep as well as Daemon himself once had, and moved easily through the shadows of the city. To this pale stranger he reached out now, by secret ways, to set a terrible vengeance into motion.

Also, why do we think that Syrax would have been wounded by Swann's attempt to emulate Serwyn? Isn't the point of the story that it didn't work, and Swann was "roasted for his troubles."

[Gaston de Foix]

There's a lot of information filtering through these posts that I haven't come across like Maegor bonding with Balerion or flying to the Vale or even for that matter Rhaenys dying in Dorne ( I know its canon that Meraxes did, but Rhaenys?). Where is it coming from, can someone link?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On Grand Maester Gerardys:

Perhaps the easiest, simplest explanation would be that he was the Grand Maester of the Black Council, and Aegon gave him to Sunfyre after he got to Dragonstone. We know that Rhaenyras' camp made a council of their own, with Corlys as the Hand. Giving whoever was the maester of Dragonstone the title of Grand Maester would be a natural move.

On the ninteen skulls:

The exact quote from Tyrion is: "There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. The most recent were also the smallest; a matched pair no bigger than mastiffs skulls, and oddly misshapen, all that remained of the last two hatchlings born on Dragonstone. They were the last of the Targaryen dragons, perhaps the last dragons anywhere, and they had not lived very long."

I'm starting to suspect that those two last hatchlings were Morghul and Shrykos. Being described "a matched pair" would fit two dragons belonging to twins. They are described as hatchlings, so the sizes match. And the "oddly misshapen" part could very wall fit into their violent deaths (Shrykos has an axe driven into the skull, and a lance is thrust into Morghul's eye "repeatedly")

Tyrion would call them "the last Targaryen dragons" as meaning "the latest to be born", not the last to die. I think this makes sense. Am I missing anything?

It's a nice theory, but I don't think that Tyrion would mistake a skull that was split by an axe blow for a misshapen skull. The skull of Shrykos would have been broken, but not strangely deformed. Same goes for Morghul. Spears through the eye, if aimed correctly, would not harm the skull.

So I don't think the two smallest skulls belonged to Morghul and Shrykos. Isn't it a fact that the last two dragons died during the reign of Aegon III?

Dunk had heard the story half a hundred times, how Ser Arlan had been just a little boy when his grandfather had taken him to King's Landing, and how they'd seen the last dragon there the year before it died. She'd been a green female, small and stunded, her wings withered.

I don't know if either Shrykos or Morghul was green, but from what I had understood, both of those dragons were perfectly fine and normal and healthy (until an angry mob decided to kill them, of course).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

In the end, the brown dragon was brought to heel by the cunning and persistence of a “small brown girl” of six-and-ten, named Netty, who delivered him a freshly slaughtered sheep every morning, until Sheepstealer learned to accept and expect her. She was black-haired , brown-eyed, brown -skinned, skinny, foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless … and the first and last rider of the dragon Sheepstealer.

I find Nettles to be a very curious/suspicious character. She has brown skin, which does not seem native to Westeros at all. Nothing is said of her parentage, of bastardy, of any possible Targ blood. She doesn't seem to have profited from the gifts that Targs generally gave to their "seeds". She is the only dragonrider we see who personally feeds her dragon. In fact, she slits the throat of each victim before she gives them to Sheepstealer.

It was her custom to feed him each day before she flew; dragons bend easier to their rider’s will when full. That morning she fed him a black ram, the largest in all Maidenpool, slitting the ram’s throat herself.

It's almost like a blood sacrifice. Is this normal dragonbinding, or something else?

Daemon Targaryen is probably the most interesting character in the story. He seems to be one of those Targs, like Aegon I or Rhaegar, who is driven by more than just present day events. He may well be one of the prophesy-driven Targs. (Of course, we don't hear of those prophesies in a Citadel document.) And he spends a lot of time with Nettles, with no real evidence that it's a sexual relationship.

crackpot alert

Sheepstealer is describes as being "mud brown", a very earthy appearance. Nettles is equally earthy in appearance. Perhaps it is not her real appearance at all, but a glamour. Perhaps it is not her real name; she's just using it because she has a need for it. Like the way, at a later time, she'll answer to a different name when she has a need to. Leaf.

[RumHam]

There's a lot of information filtering through these posts that I haven't come across like Maegor bonding with Balerion or flying to the Vale or even for that matter Rhaenys dying in Dorne ( I know its canon that Meraxes did, but Rhaenys?). Where is it coming from, can someone link?

It's from a reading called "Son's of the Dragon" Martin read at Bubonicon. Here are some reports:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83614-bubonicon-45/?p=4879997

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/83614-bubonicon-45/page-2#entry4884304

Also if you haven't read the report he had done a reading on Aegon's conquest:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2012/09/

[The hairy bear]

There's a lot of information filtering through these posts that I haven't come across like Maegor bonding with Balerion or flying to the Vale or even for that matter Rhaenys dying in Dorne ( I know its canon that Meraxes did, but Rhaenys?). Where is it coming from, can someone link?

Here's the link. Look for frodostark's posts.

It's a nice theory, but I don't think that Tyrion would mistake a skull that was split by an axe blow for a misshapen skull. The skull of Shrykos would have been broken, but not strangely deformed. Same goes for Morghul. Spears through the eye, if aimed correctly, would not harm the skull.

So I don't think the two smallest skulls belonged to Morghul and Shrykos.

English is not my first language, but couldn't "misshapen" be aplied to something that has been deformed through repeated blows? We are talking about the attacks of an angry mob, whose weapons are not made of castle-forged steel.

Alternatively, Tyrion saw them as "misshapen" becasue they were not fully grown. The shape of an infant's skull looks different than a grown up, and Morghul and Shrykos couldn't be older than a couple of years.

If I am right in this, then the red green female Arstan saw has to be the "unaccounted for" dragon Ran mentioned, since any of the other living dragons would fit (Cannibal is black, Silverwing is silver, Sheepstealer is brown).

I'm not convinced myself, but I think it's a valid possibility.

[Maia]

IMHO, Nettle's appearance is irrelevant. We know that Targaryens can on occasion have children that don't have their signature look - i.e. Baelor Breakspear and little Rhaenys. Obviously, such a child wouldn't have been recognized as a Targ bastard back on Dragonstone.

Also, Spicytown seems to have been a major port, so Nettle could have had some foreign sailor in her ancestry, too. Anyway, when you have a situation like on Dragonstone, then you'd have known and unknown descendants of Targaryens procreating together and it is a complete crapshoot who gets the ability.

It is interesting that there were no descendants of known Targaryens involved. Except for supposed son of Maegor, which was complete bunk.

Daemon was supposed to be quite a libertine according to the Green propaganda, for instance, and he was certainly fertile, yet no bastard of his came forth.

I have a crackpot theory that Nettle flew to Ashai and that the dragons that Bran saw there in his AGoT vision were descendants of Sheepstealer and Carraxes. And that Quaithe (?) is somehow connected to Nettle.

Re: little Viserys, Rhaena can identify him. In fact, I am now convinced that discounting a miracle like Dany's, dragons can only be hatched in a volcano. And that there is some secret procedure involved that got sabotaged by the maesters/Aegon III or somehow got lost when all who knew it died. Or maybe the eggs got interfered with/poisoned.

And since I want some more bad-assitude from female characters, I hope that Rhaena bonds with Silverwing.

Re: a person having to be fierce to successfully bond a pre-owned dragon - well, Helaena seemed to be a typical doormat who didn't have much say in the events despite being a dragonrider, and yet she managed to bond with one of the older dragons.

Concerning the dragonhorns, the one we saw was fatal to the blower. If horns were used during attempts to tame wild/orphaned dragons, then the process is far more dangerous and uncertain than Victarion and Euron imagine.

Either that or somebody with sufficient dragonlord blood would have been able to blow the horn without getting harmed. Maybe all the talk that dragonlords/Targaryens were considered godlike was a clue to the meaning of inscription.

Another thing - given that Alyn Velaryon's full brother was a dragonrider, maybe _he_ was considered to be the father of Viserys Plumm and the second drop of dragonblood that Tyrion mentions to Brown Ben. Also, given the differences between Elaena's and Alyn's ages it seems that their mutual bastards had to be Elaena's older children, rather than the youngest ones, as I used to think. Interesting.

As to Aegon III's second "Velaryon" queen, I wonder if it has been somewhat changed, like his regents were changed and it is now one of his fraternal half-sisters, who are, after all descended from Velaryons too. It would make vastly more sense to me than Alyn's or Addam's daughter.

[Lykos]

<snip>

crackpot alert

Sheepstealer is describes as being "mud brown", a very earthy appearance. Nettles is equally earthy in appearance. Perhaps it is not her real appearance at all, but a glamour. Perhaps it is not her real name; she's just using it because she has a need for it. Like the way, at a later time, she'll answer to a different name when she has a need to. Leaf.

Nice! Though I rather believe that she befriended Jenny of Oldstones and returned to the Targaryen court to bring the dragons back. I always wondered why the Ghost of High Heart had a part in the Summerhall Tragedy she felt so guilty about. This would explain it nicely.

Anyway, what has been reported about Nettles rang a lot of my Old Gods alerts.

<snip>

:rofl:

No, they're really, obviously, incontrovertibly not "part-dragon". The two deformed children (which, by the way, are not described as being deformed in the exact same way) operate both to symbolically link Dany to Rhaenyra (as it appears Dany will be playing the "role" of Rhaenyra in the upcoming Dance) and to symbolize the idea that these wars, and seeking the throne, cost (and will cost) these women what was most precious to them---Dany's firstborn son and Rhaenyra's only daughter. (And I feel it necessary to point out that, for all we know, the story of Rhaenyra's child being born deformed is actually entirely Green propaganda.) And why does Visenya supposedly have a hole in her chest instead of a heart? Dragon genes? Come on, now.

<snip>

Yes, Rhaenyra´s miscarriage rather seems to put Dany´s later miscarriage into perspective than bolstering the idea of something supernatural going on.

Both - a tale and missing organs are deformations that occur even in real life (unlike Mirri´s taunting description of Rhaego that also said he was dead for years), the scales could be an exaggeration or Martin trying to keep his readers wondering (or wandering the wrong path), the hole where the heart should have been is also highly symbolic and making a connection to Arya, who also feels she has "a hole where her heart should have been".

[RumHam]

Possibly stupid question, what is a dragon's "crest?"

Prince Daeron’s dragon was Tessarion, with her wings dark as cobalt and her claws and crest and belly scales as bright as beaten copper.

The Red Queen, she was called, for the scarlet scales that covered her. The membranes of her wings were pink, her crest, horns, and claws bright as copper.

Moondancer was a young dragon, pale green, with horns and crest and wingbones of pearl.

Also I'm confused about the "wingbones of pearl." Dragonbone is supposed to be black from it's high iron content right? and these wingbones are...visible somehow?