[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Iona]

These three would all apply on Nettles. I think they also refer to her as a child, since Nettles is only 16. Jeyne Westerling, Robb's wife, was 16 as well, yet Catelyn referred to her as a girl as well. Ygritte was 19, yet Jon referred to her as a girl as well, as did Tormund. In fact, Ygritte is often described as a girl. So the fact that Nettles is called a girl would not automatically have to mean she was a child.

Interestingly, in AGOT 16-year-old Lyanna is described as being something in-between, a "child-woman of surpassing loveliness".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interestingly, in AGOT 16-year-old Lyanna is described as being something in-between, a "child-woman of surpassing loveliness".

Yeah, I think all we can conclude is that the word girl does not mean the same as child. At least not in GRRM stories.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

None of those individuals is described exclusively as a "small girl" like Nettles. I'm not saying she's a four year old, i'm saying she's small (probably about Arya's size) even if she is a woman grown. The text is pretty clear that though she is "16" she's seen as a small child by everyone who describes her.

Meera Reed is also a women and yet she's scarcely taller than an 8 year old:

Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and scarcely taller than Bran himself. They went to one knee before the dais.

[RumHam]

snip

Again I was just saying that the phrase "small child" normally refers to a really young kid. Not a 16 year old girl.

House Strong being (possibly) extinct is relevant because then Daemon would know there would be no one left alive to return to Harrenhal and rebuild, except Larys who was obviously busy at the time. Contrast this with one of the burnt settlements whose ruling family is still alive, they wouldn't want to abandon their holdings, so they stay and rebuild.

Sorry, I still don't seen any connection between the old gods and Netty or Daemon. We don't know exactly why Daemon choose to face Vhagar at Harrenhal, but there is no indication it had anything to do with the old gods. The use of the world "vigil" is not evidence of a connection to the old gods.

I said I more or less agreed with you about the weirwoods because I wouldn't call Riverrun's heart tree small. Slender yes, but it's also described as tall. Didn't seem worth bringing up when we already disagree about so many other things :)

I'm sorry you didn't like my analogy. I know people use weirwood weapons. I don't know that they carve them off heart trees, that would seem odd to me.

[Lord Varys]

On a Great Council:

My take on that is that it is insofar as an Ironborn Kingsmoot as all possible claimants to the Iron Throne are considered there. But it's clearly more complicated than just shouting a name (on the side of the lords) and trying to convince the lords that you would make a good king (on the side of the claimant).

The whole point of a Great Council that discusses the line of succession would be to determine a good king (i.e. to determine who the obvious heir is - if that's not clear - and then to determine if he/she would make a good king/queen). I expect claimants declaring that they would like to take the crown, lords speaking in their favor, maesters and septons weighing the validities of the various claims, and so forth.

I do think that Daemon could have been chosen by the Great Council in absentia, but I think that his absence would have made it less likely that he would have been chosen. If Laenor and Laena can be considered then Daemon could have been considered, too. Especially since exactly the same thing happened on the Great Council that chose Aegon the Unlikely. Daeron's lackwit daughter and Aerion's infant son were passed over, but their claims were considered. In fact, I think Aerion's son, the rightful king by law, did have more than a bunch of lords behind him. We should keep in mind that Maekar did not outlive Aerion for long, and while he was still alive Aerion must have been Maekar's heir and Prince of Dragonstone (Daeron predeceased Aerion). Whoever backed Aerion may have extended his support to his infant son.

The fact that Daeron's daughter was also considered may indicate that a Great Council can also debate the claims of women. It's very unlikely that they are chosen, but their claims are considered.

On Rhaenyra and Aegon:

If Rhaenyra and Daemon married in ~119/120 then Aegon would have been old enough for a betrothal. It could have been a possibility that was discussed. Rhaenyra would have been 22/23, Aegon 12/13. My best guess is that neither she nor Alicent wanted that, especially since it must have been crystal-clear to Viserys that Aegon would not succeed him. People seem to get the impression or the vibe that Alicent groomed him to take the Iron Throne eventually. She could have told him that he would be king eventually, but she could not prepare him from kingship by treating him as her husband's heir because he treated Rhaenyra as such. She accompanied him to council, not Aegon.

Prince Aegon does strike me as a young man with a hot temper who was not only not prepared for the role of king but who was also not really interested in that whole thing. Instead he enjoyed women and court life. The very fact that he was not in his mother's/grandfather's inner circle - indicated by the fact that he was not woken and consulted when the Small Council discussed the succession upon Viserys's death - shows that no one was all that interested in his input.

It really does seem as if the Green coup was motivated mostly by Green (i.e. Hightower) ambition and fear that they would lose their influence under Queen Rhaenyra's administration. Ser Otto and Alicent fearing for their lives under Prince Consort Daemon Targaryen is obviously an exaggeration but it's pretty obvious that Rhaenyra would have removed Otto and Alicent from power.

On Daemon and prophecy:

My take on Daemon's survival - if he survived - is that whatever happened in Maidenpool made him realize his true destiny. To join the Green Men on the God's Eye. Perhaps he had a vision/dream himself years backs, and Rhaenyra's letter made him realize that the time had come. It's also possible that a prophet foretold him something - say, for example, to change his life if his wife would ever betray him. Then attacking Aemond the way he did would just be a way to fake his death. If Daemon survived and joined the Green Men this might mean that we will meet him again not in some other historical account but during the main series. That is, if the Green Men ever make an appearance in the series.

[Anath]

But Aemond was well aware of his mother's ambitions. Remember, he immediately asked, "Is Aegon king now?". He knew it was a possibility. I have a hard time imagining that Aegon didn't also know it. My take on him was that of a petulant child waiting for Mommy to arrange the throne for him. He had a good reason, by the way, because Alicent was clearly more competent than him.

Of course, there is the chance that he might have eventually cleaved to Rhaenyra instead of his mother but I don't think it's the more likely possibility. The fact that Viserys didn't arrange the match points that at the time, he was clearly in better possession of his faculties than at the end, when he let the Greens seize control.

Alicent didn't prepare her son to be a competent ruler. I think she prepared him to be king - a puppet king without mentioning the puppet part to him, of course. Instilling him with the feeling that he should succeed Viserys who groomed Rhaenyra as his heir.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On Daemon and prophecy:

My take on Daemon's survival - if he survived - is that whatever happened in Maidenpool made him realize his true destiny. To join the Green Men on the God's Eye. Perhaps he had a vision/dream himself years backs, and Rhaenyra's letter made him realize that the time had come. It's also possible that a prophet foretold him something - say, for example, to change his life if his wife would ever betray him. Then attacking Aemond the way he did would just be a way to fake his death. If Daemon survived and joined the Green Men this might mean that we will meet him again not in some other historical account but during the main series. That is, if the Green Men ever make an appearance in the series.

How could Daemon have possibly known that he was going to survive? It was a hard smack on the floor, hard enough for two dragons to eventually die from it. If we have learned anything, it's that prophecies won't Always come true, and they especially won't work the way that you might originally think they'll work.

Even if Daemon had a prophecy years before (which I don't think he did, personally), which would let him know that when Rhaenyra betrayed him,. it was time to go to the green men, and he knew he would have to fake his death to pull it off, why engage in a fight in which he had an extremely high chance of dying? I know Caraxes was a battle-hardened dragon, and Daemon himself a great warrior, but Vhagar had fought in more battles, was bigger, stronger, had a hotter flame, and Aemond wasn't new to the whole fighting thing either. Daemon had an incredibly high chance of dying. In fact, I believe that he did die, though I admit it is suspicious his body was never found.

There was no way a potential prophecy would have ensured Daemon that he was going to survive such a battle.

[Hazoo]

In relation to Daemon's connection to the Old Gods, I'd like to point out something that I found re-reading Brienne's chapter at the Whispers :

The yard was all weeds and pine needles. Soldier pines were everywhere, drawn up in solemn ranks. In their midst was a pale stranger; a slender young weirwood with a trunk as white as a cloistered maid. Dark red leaves sprouted from its reaching branches. Beyond was the emptiness of sky and sea where the wall had collapsed . . .

It could be a coincidence, but this specific phrase “pale stranger” was used in P&Q to describe Daemon’s “special friend” in Kings Landing to whom he reached out “by secret ways” to set up the Blood and Cheese ploy. It's implied in the text that mysterious means are used to communicate. I don't want to resort to wild speculation, but Daemon is a mysterious character with adventurous past and there is much we don't know about him. Do you think it's a coincidence? Or do you think Martin is purposely evoking the Old Gods here?

Yes, this is officially my first post :cool4:

[Lost Melnibonean]

In relation to Daemon's connection to the Old Gods, I'd like to point out something that I found re-reading Brienne's chapter at the Whispers :

It could be a coincidence, but this specific phrase pale stranger was used in P&Q to describe Daemons special friend in Kings Landing to whom he reached out by secret ways to set up the Blood and Cheese ploy. It's implied in the text that mysterious means are used to communicate. I don't want to resort to wild speculation, but Daemon is a mysterious character with adventurous past and there is much we don't know about him. Do you think it's a coincidence? Or do you think Martin is purposely evoking the Old Gods here?

Yes, this is officially my first post :cool4:

Fricken awesome first post. I'm so glad your first time was special.

If there were a weiwood in KL we'd have something. But there is no weirwood in KL, is there?

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Welcome, lovely first post, you totally ninja'd me.

I noticed the same thing when looking up weirwoods during my discussion w/ RumHam. The fact that those are the only two instances (as far as my searches found) in the entire ASOIAF series seems intentional to me...but clearly i'm on the wild speculation side of things.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

not in the godswood during neds days

Fricken awesome first post. I'm so glad your first time was special.

If there were a weiwood in KL we'd have something. But there is no weirwood in KL, is there?

[Lord Varys]

Aegon knew also about Mommy's plan. At least that's very likely. Not even Aemond was as stupid to not realize that there were two factions at court. On the other hand, it seems as if all of Alicent's children have been left out of it. It has yet to be determined whether Viserys died of natural disease. It's easily possible that both his sickness and his eventual death were caused by the Greens, and then it would have been very wise to keep Viserys's children in the dark about that (especially Daeron, who apparently loved his father).

I can imagine that Viserys's health only declined after Rhaenyra was no longer able to leave Dragonstone on dragonback due to her pregnancy.

If Viserys is not much older than Daemon - and some people do seem to assume that (he could still be 5-10 years older if you ask me - we don't yet know how long he was married to his Arryn wife or when his first child from her was born) - then he would only be in his early fifties when he died. That's pretty young for a natural death.

We should also put the 'The king's death had been expected for quite a while' into perspective. If Gyldayn's source on these events is indeed Grand Maester Orwyle - and that's my guess - then the people expecting Viserys's death may have been the Greens rather than the court or the Realm as a whole.

On Daemon:

Well, it's clear that Daemon's restraints are off when he fights Aemond over the God's Eye. It's all or nothing. Something has changed. Something important. I don't say that his fight with Vhagar was part of a prophecy/vision, just that this could have worked as his smokescreen to disappear - under the assumption that he did survive. Just disappearing would have been a much better idea, if you ask me.

One could speculate whether Daemon already visited the God's Eye in his youth and did reject an offer back then. Perhaps he never wanted to become a Green Man and the whole dragon fight thing was his last attempt to try to foil that destiny? If the existence of a Green Man is on the same level as that of a greenseer it would have been a very poor choice indeed (at least while you are not near natural death). Especially for a man like Daemon.

On Rhaenyra's politics:

Her raising the taxes is easily explainable. She did not have any money. Her war was expensive, and she did pay everything with Velaryon coin up to the point when she took KL. The Greens put three portions of the Crown's money out of KL. A quarter to Casterly Rock, a quarter to Oldtown, a quarter to the Iron Bank of Braavos. One quarter remained at the Red Keep but I guess that was nearly or completely spent when Rhaenyra took the cities - to hire sellswords and for bribes (to get the Triarchy to attack Dragonstone could not have been cheap).

Thus I don't think that Rhaenyra had a choice when she demanded new taxes of the people of KL. Ser Kevan can ponder whether to pay the Crown with Lannister gold in ADwD, Rhaenyra has no such option.

And a lavish feast to celebrate Joffrey's formal installation as Prince of Dragonstone - that would have been an important political sign (I don't think they ever got to that). The people and Lords had to realize and accept who their new king would be.

Her decision to call for Netty's head has apparently nothing to do with the alleged Daemon-Nettles-affair. It's the pretext/explanation she gives to Lord Mooton as to why she is to be executed for high treason. The real reason was that Rhaenyra and her court were afraid that she would betray her - as the Betrayers of Tumbleton did. But 'I/We are afraid' would have been no good explanation, wouldn't it?' Sleeping with the consort of a king/queen is high treason, though.

It does not seem as if Rhaenyra was actually jealous of Netty. And I think if that had been the case, if this whole thing was truly a jealousy thing we would have gotten more on that stuff. We would have read more about Rhaenyra's and Daemon's relationship, Rhaenyra's jealousy and stuff. Gardner would not have taken that out, I think, as this would have shed more light on Rhaenyra's character. And it would have been a main point of the core story rather than 'Daemon stuff' that is not actually all that connected to Rhaenyra (which is how the story really seems to be).

I'm also still wondering whether Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage was arranged or a love match (and if the latter, who was more in love?)? The fact that Rhaenyra allowed Daemon to father children on her suggests that she took the fact that she was supposed to be his wife seriously (she already had three sons - she did not necessarily need more children). She is even pregnant at the beginning of the story which indicates that they still had a functioning sex life. Daemon is the one who is apparently deeply hurt by the command to execute Nettles. This can be read as if he is hurt that Rhaenyra would think he - or anyone he is associated with - would betray her.

Taking out Aemond and Vhagar is a blow to Rhaenyra's cause but it also removes Vhagar and Aemond from the equation. If Aegon II had been dead/not taken Dragonstone/never shown up again this could have been the beginning of the end of the Green cause.

On the Strongs:

Larys Strong surely is going to show up again. We don't know if he has any sons, and how he is related to the Strong castellan of Harrenhal, but I think it's quite obvious that House Strong is not going to survive the downfall of Aegon II/rise of Aegon III. Larys may die in the coming fights, and we don't know if he has any living siblings or any children. If he is the last surviving Strong it may be that the Strongs merely die out, but my guess is that they will be attainted and extinguished. It may even be that Aegon II is going to blame Larys for the death of Prince Maelor - who may have died on his way to Oldtown. If we assume that Aegon II is no longer capable to father any children (or to consummate a new marriage) then he would be really pissed that he would never a have a male heir of his own body. Handing down the Iron Throne to his daughter Jaehaera - or rather, her future husband - would not exactly be the kind of thing a man could do who rebelled against his sister because she was female.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

FWIW I'm pretty sure Daemon survives the impact:

Ran said

Emphasis mine. The text clarly says "Daemon Targaryen was nine-and-forty at his death", but given that his body was never found one wonders... Ran, do you stand by what you wrote twelve months ago? Or it's a "no comment" issue?

Hrm...

Draw your own conclusions. :)

[Hazoo]

Fricken awesome first post. I'm so glad your first time was special.

If there were a weiwood in KL we'd have something. But there is no weirwood in KL, is there?

Thanks :)

Oops, yeah, you're right. There is a Godswood in KL, but without a Weirwood tree. There is a general Heart tree (I think, it's an Oak tree..)

Welcome, lovely first post, you totally ninja'd me.

I noticed the same thing when looking up weirwoods during my discussion w/ RumHam. The fact that those are the only two instances (as far as my searches found) in the entire ASOIAF series seems intentional to me...but clearly i'm on the wild speculation side of things.

Oops, I totally missed that part and I read your posts about Daemon and The Old Gods, sorry!

For what it's worth, I'm starting to think that these parallels are intentional too.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

oh no. the credit is all yours. i only noticed it in private readings, i was gonna post, but you beat me to it. really great post. and i'm glad to hear our ranks are growing.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Shouldn't another thread have been started by now?

[Veltigar]

Ha, I'm glad to say that tPatQ proved that I was right about the dragons military use. They are no WMD, they are more akin to F-16 and other fighter jets. Wars are won by boots on the ground, not by reptiles in the air however cool they might be (not to say that dragons can't be useful of course).

I did not think however that they were that easy to kill. I thought they were a bit tougher, even when they were trapped and chained like in the Pit.

About Daemon's contact in KL. Anyone think that the court jester was the go between?

[Slayer of Lies]

I’m know I’m late to the party and I hate to do this, but I also haven't made time to read 59 forum pages yet, and the search feature hasn’t yielded anything either… Anyway, this seems like a good place place to ask…

Has anyone suggested that Sheepstealer – having been last seen flying away from Jonquil’s Tower – might mean there’s a fourth dragon out there somewhere?

Sheepstealer’s last sighting:

No word of farewell was spoken betwixt man and maid, but as Sheepstealer beat his leathery brown wings and climbed into the dawn sky, Caraxes raised his head and gave a scream that shattered every window in Jonquil’s Tower. High above the town, Nettles turned her dragon toward the Bay of Crabs, and vanished in the morning mists, never to be seen again at court or castle.

Tyrion near the Sorrows:

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog. The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it happened.

Whether or not these passages are actually connected, and whether or not the “shape” Tyrion didn’t quite see is connected, my imagination wants to take a living fourth dragon into all kinds of potential directions.

Primarily:

· There may be a fourth dragon out there…

· 170ish years later, this dragon – if alive – might be quite large and foreboding…

· Potentially being seen near the Sorrows, might this beast have greyscale?

· Additionally, this ultimately lend itself to: “From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing breathing shadow fire,” tied in with the “slayer of lies” aspect of the HOTU visions? Of course, we won’t have seen the tower yet, but that may be in the cards… and I’m also not exactly sure yet how this might connect with the “slayer of lies” phrase… but this is the first place my mind went after connecting Sheepstealer’s disappearance to Tyrion’s mysterious half-encounter

Anyway, up until P&Q, I wasn’t sure whether Tyrion half-witnessed Drogon flying overhead, or something else entirely. No indication of size is given, and leathery wings might be taken as a big clue… or this could be nothing.

What do you guys think? Grasping? Plausible? Not a ton to go on yet, I'll admit... but a fairly exciting possibility if plausible.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

OMG. YES. Tyrion saw Sheepstealer or his descendants!!

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

I haven't seen this suggested yet, it's way cooler than the idea that sheepstealers nothing more than some bones in the desert.