Who would Brandon have crowned as QoLaB?

[Ygrain]

We know that Brandon was an exceptionally skilled rider, which in GRRM’s world is the chief pre-requisite for being a good jouster, and we know that he rode among the champions against Rhaegar at Harrenhall on that last day when the winner of the tourney was decided:

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

As one of the favourites, Brandon had reasonable chances of winning the tourney himself, so who would he have crowned?

We actually know only four women who were present: Lyanna, Elia, Ashara and the Whent girl. Crowning Lyanna would have been polite and dutiful but I simply do not see the dashing manly champion crowning his little sister when there were so many stunning ladies around (even though we don’t know their names).Out of those we do know, Elia was not stunning and neither was probably the young Lady Whent, or we would have heard about it. That leaves Ashara, who had had some contact with Brandon previously (the dance must have taken part before Lyanna was crowned, or else her response to Rhaegar’s song would have waved a big red flag at her brothers), who turned to Stark and was dishonoured at the tourney.

So, should we conclude that Brandon and Ashara indeed had a thing going at Harrenhall and that he was the one who dishonoured her?

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

It has been argued that the phrasing of “looked to Stark” does not necessarily imply romantic interest; however, in connection with the following sentence, Barristan clearly perceives this as negative:

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

Barristan thinks that Ashara looked to the wrong man, and that had he won, he might have prevented her personal tragedy.

Who was the wrong Stark, though? A man dishonoured Ashara, so the Lyanna crackpot is out of the window. Benjen was a mere boy (boy, not man, so not the one Barristan referred to), and even if Ashara did have a thing for youngsters, there was no reason why he wouldn’t have been able to make up for the dishonour by marrying her. That leaves only Ned and Brandon.

I will not go in detail into all the reasoning why Ned makes no sense while Brandon a lot (too shy to ask even for a dance, taking pleasures was not a charge that anyone could lay at his door, he never was the boy he was, versus one not shy over what he wanted etc etc etc). I’d rather point out that when Barristan speaks about Ned, he refers to him as Lord Stark or Eddard Stark, as he defends him before Dany, and there is not a hint of disrespect or grudge between them. On the other hand, he says “looked to Stark”, without a name or title, which we see used when intending a threat or slight. I think that this might be a subtle way to hint lack of respect and/or negative feelings towards this particular Stark in question, who was not Ned.

Furthermore, if Barristan thinks that winning a tourney might win him his lady’s heart, it may not be inconceivable to conclude that the other man did draw her attention by jousting feats, which again rules out Ned, who apparently didn’t take part at all or didn’t do well enough to remain till the end, and supports Brandon.

Which brings us back to the question if Brandon would have crowned Ashara, and I think that the answer is yes. We can only speculate if he might even have promised it to her, should he win, and if he wore her favour for the tilt. There is even the possibility that Brandon seduced her only after he had lost to Rhaegar, as a way of comforting his hurt ego, in which case Barristan’s musings about his failure ring tragically true.

[Victor227]

Considering that Brandon was already betrothed, there's an equally great chance he would have simply declared Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty anyway to honor his sister. If Catelyn were there, she would be his obvious choice. Brandon may have been a hothead, but he was still a Stark, I'm fairly sure he was obliged to follow rules of propriety -in public-, no matter what moral failings he had in private. -Much like Rhaegar was... So of course, anything is possible.

[Ygrain]

I'm not saying that it's entirely implausible, it's just that I think that testosterone and adrenaline would have prevailed over duty and common sense, just like they did with Rhaegar.

[sarah.jenice]

I think it makes sense that Brandon was the one who had a thing for Ashara. Ned still could have liked her enough to take Dawn back to her after Ser Arthur was killed.

But does that make Brandon the father of Ashara's baby who died?

[Ser Leftwich]

One concern might be as to if the Catelyn-Brandon betrothal was publicly known or not.

If it was not publicly known, could Brandon get away with crowning anyone?

If it was general common knowledge, he would have to go with someone safe, like Lyanna.

[Rickeen Stark]

Probably Cat, I mean, she was super hot as well right?

[Ser Leftwich]

Probably Cat, I mean, she was super hot as well right?

But Cat was not at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ygrain-- Well reasoned! I agree that most clues point to Brandon + Ashara, and that she would have been his choice as QoLaB. As for the dishonor, I think it could go one of two ways and I give a slight edge to Brandon being the one, mostly due to the testimony of Barbrey Dustin. To be clear, if it was Brandon I'd guess the "dishonor" was mostly the perception of Ser Barristan and any relationship was consensual. Of course, the fact that Brandon ended up being promised to another may have been part of it. I think it was privately known for many years that he was promised to Cat (iirc, she recalls in a POV that she was 13 or 14 when her father promised her to Brandon.) But...

Ser Leftwich-- I don't think the Cat and Brandon betrothal was public knowledge at this point as Brandon's duel with LF took place at Riverrun shortly after Hoster Tully announced the betrothal and probably at least nine months after the tourney. Also, it seems the Tullys may not have been at the Tourney, but this is odd since not only was Hoster Lord Whent's liege, but also kin via his wife. Yet no Tullys are ever mentioned as being there, not even the Blackfish who was a renowned warrior and still lived in the Riverlands at that time. I've theorized that the tourney was viewed as a chance for the young people to get to know each other (especially in the case of Lyanna and Robert) so it's possible (eta-- though unlikely, imo) that Cat and Lysa were there without their father (as the Starks were) and are simply not mentioned. Either way, the LF duel supports a public announcement some time after.

[Ser Leftwich]

Ygrain-- Well reasoned! I agree that most clues point to Brandon + Ashara, and that she would have been his choice as QoLaB. As for the dishonor, I think it could go one of two ways and I give a slight edge to Brandon being the one, mostly due to the testimony of Barbrey Dustin. To be clear, if it was Brandon I'd guess the "dishonor" was mostly the perception of Ser Barristan and any relationship was consensual. Of course, the fact that Brandon ended up being promised to another may have been part of it. I think it was privately known for many years that he was promised to Cat (iirc, she recalls in a POV that she was 13 or 14 when her father promised her to Brandon.) But...

Ser Leftwich-- I don't think the Cat and Brandon betrothal was public knowledge at this point as Brandon's duel with LF took place at Riverrun shortly after Hoster Tully announced the betrothal and probably at least nine months after the tourney. Also, it seems the Tullys may not have been at the Tourney, but this is odd since not only was Hoster Lord Whent's liege, but also kin via his wife. Yet no Tullys are ever mentioned as being there, not even the Blackfish who was a renowned warrior and still lived in the Riverlands at that time. I've theorized that the tourney was viewed as a chance for the young people to get to know each other (especially in the case of Lyanna and Robert) so it's possible that Cat and Lysa were there without their father (as the Starks were) and are simply not mentioned. Either way, the LF duel supports a public announcement some time after.

Just had a thought about the Tully's not being there, which I am sure someone else has had before. What if they were in mourning for the dead Minisa Whent?

There is the line about about "... some of the life going out of [Hoster]" in ACoK.

[Thendel]

Ygrain-- Well reasoned! I agree that most clues point to Brandon + Ashara, and that she would have been his choice as QoLaB. As for the dishonor, I think it could go one of two ways and I give a slight edge to Brandon being the one, mostly due to the testimony of Barbrey Dustin. To be clear, if it was Brandon I'd guess the "dishonor" was mostly the perception of Ser Barristan and any relationship was consensual. Of course, the fact that Brandon ended up being promised to another may have been part of it. I think it was privately known for many years that he was promised to Cat (iirc, she recalls in a POV that she was 13 or 14 when her father promised her to Brandon.) But...

Ser Leftwich-- I don't think the Cat and Brandon betrothal was public knowledge at this point as Brandon's duel with LF took place at Riverrun shortly after Hoster Tully announced the betrothal and probably at least nine months after the tourney. Also, it seems the Tullys may not have been at the Tourney, but this is odd since not only was Hoster Lord Whent's liege, but also kin via his wife. Yet no Tullys are ever mentioned as being there, not even the Blackfish who was a renowned warrior and still lived in the Riverlands at that time. I've theorized that the tourney was viewed as a chance for the young people to get to know each other (especially in the case of Lyanna and Robert) so it's possible (eta-- though unlikely, imo) that Cat and Lysa were there without their father (as the Starks were) and are simply not mentioned. Either way, the LF duel supports a public announcement some time after.

Littlefinger didn't challenge Brandon because their betrothal was suddenly announced, he made the challenge because he believed that he had just slept with Catelyn while plastered and that she actually loved him in return.

As for who Brandon would have crowned, it's a good question. There's a case to be made that he'd do the politically incorrect thing and crown Ashara just because she was hot, but being promised to another, the correct thing to do would have been to crown Elia.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think Minisa had a stillborn around that time and the Tullys stayed with her at Riverrun.

[Roland Deschain of Gilead]

Chesty Mcbust of House Bosom.

[RumHam]

Littlefinger didn't challenge Brandon because their betrothal was suddenly announced, he made the challenge because he believed that he had just slept with Catelyn while plastered and that she actually loved him in return.

As for who Brandon would have crowned, it's a good question. There's a case to be made that he'd do the politically incorrect thing and crown Ashara just because she was hot, but being promised to another, the correct thing to do would have been to crown Elia.

This quote makes it sound like he challenged Brandon upon hearing the announcement:

When it was announced that I was to wed Brandon Stark, Petyr challenged for the right to my hand. It was madness. Brandon was twenty, Petyr scarcely fifteen. I had to beg Brandon to spare Petyr’s life.

However we also have this:

And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.

I'm not sure when Cat was born, but that might help nail it down.

Edit: according to the wiki she was born in 264. There's no citation but if that date is accurate than she was promised to Brandon five years before the tournament at Harrenhal. They might have kept it a secret for some reason for a while and made an announcement years later, but I can't imagine why.

[Ser Creighton]

Himself.

Seriously it probably would depend on his mood. Did he hate Rhaegar at that point? Maybe Elia as she is the Queen to be, and maybe he would of taken his fathers southern ambition into account. It's a nice political move. Lyanna his sister who he cared for, doing it because he loved his sister just like the Whents were defending their sisters crown. Ashara maybe he had a thing for her, don't know, or maybe he would of done it for Ned, who I suspect would hate it as he prefers to do things himself.

Chances are he probably goes with Lyanna or Elia. Maybe even Whent as an honor to her father for such a great tourney. Ashara I doubt because he was engaged, but maybe he would of enjoyed embarrassing Ned, Brandon seems like that kind of guy. Maybe he would of kept and given it to Cat, which would be the smart move.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This quote makes it sound like he challenged Brandon upon hearing the announcement:

However we also have this:

I'm not sure when Cat was born, but that might help nail it down.

Thanks for finding those quotes! My interpretation is that there was an informal agreement made when Cat was young, which was formally announced when she reached an age to be wed. According to the wiki she is a year younger than Ned, making her 17 the year of the Tourney. (Even if that is an estimate, she certainly would have been much older than twelve.) Minisa died giving birth to her fourth son, sometime after 274 (Edmure is listed as nine years younger than Cat, b.263) I got the impression from a Cat POV that she was still relatively young when her mother died, so I don't think Minisa's death was recent but it's possible Hoster may have become permanently withdrawn after she died.

So it's curious, if Cat was 17 and promised to Brandon for many years-- why does she appear to have been absent from a Tourney (called by Barristan "the greatest tourney of them all") staged by her mother's kin?

[Hajk]

Crowning Lyanna would have been polite and dutiful but I simply do not see the dashing manly champion crowning his little sister when there were so many stunning ladies around (even though we don’t know their names).

In that case who has Jaime been crowning all these years? They must all be dying under suspicious circumstances because Cersei is that jealous...

[The Crow's Third Eye]

I still like the idea that the Tully's stayed away because the potential betrothal between Lysa and Jamie was thrown out the window at this tourney because Jamie joined the Kingsguard. It would have been a slight on the Tully's which could provide and excuse for not attending.

As to Brandon's QoLaB; was Barbrey Dustin present? I dont know how likely it is that a bannermans daughter would attend a tourney in another region but you never know. Your reasoning behind Ashara is good too, and I agree that he would be unlikely to crown Lyanna.

[C0bR]

I think he would've gone for Lyanna, since honoring your sister is the best choice for somebody whose bethroted is not present (when you are not a Targaryen, lol).

It seems like he kept his affairs pretty quiet, so I don't see why would go for Ashara even if he had something with her (and I am not sure about that, believing anything Barristan thinks or says contains a solid chance of being wrong) and make a scandal out of it. He may have been wild, but we don't hear about him being undutiful or unintelligent.

Lol at the last sentence.

[Queen Alienor]

I too think that him crowning Lyanna would have been the most logical move. It would alienate nobody and make no scandal. However, Brandon is described as having the wolfblood, so I'm not sure he would have gone for the logical thing. Your reasoning for him crowning Ashara is sound, but we'll never know, I guess.

[Rickeen Stark]

He'd have crowned his sister or Ashara, as Cat wasn't there.