R+L=J v.79

[Chebyshov]

Well LF was nearly beaten to death by Brandon at Riverrun and probably still in recovery when BRandon got the news of Lyanna getting abducted. So at least now we know that it wasn't LF who sent Brandon the message. thoughts on who you guys think it is? My money is still on Varys.

Where was Benjen during all this? I always assumed he had a part to play in delivering the message, but I'm not sure where I got that from.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Where was Benjen during all this? I always assumed he had a part to play in delivering the message, but I'm not sure where I got that from.

We only know that Benjen was at Winterfell during the Rebellion. We don't know where he was in between the Tourney at Harrenhal, and the start of the Rebellion though. It's possible Benjen was the Stark at Winterfell during Lyanna's abduction, since Brandon and Rickard were not at Winterfell, and Ned seems to have been at the Eyrie, and Lyanna quite possibly wasn't at Winterfell.

[Stenjen Bark]

I *think* this is a decent place to ask this but it refers to more than one theory and is about what's included in them generally - but having read the R+L=J, Tower of Joy, and TPTWP theories, I haven't seen a mention to the fact that if Jon=TPTWP is true, then "Promise me, Ned" covers both that and Jon's parentage.... If R+L=J and the promise here is about Ned protecting Jon, as pretty much everyone assumes, then Jon is literally the Prince that was Promised...

I feel like this should be supporting both theories. Or is there a reason it's not included in them (it seems quite obvious to me????). Or, the other possible answer, it has been included in both theories and I've just not realised I've read it :lol:

[Consigliere]

I *think* this is a decent place to ask this but it refers to more than one theory and is about what's included in them generally - but having read the R+L=J, Tower of Joy, and TPTWP theories, I haven't seen a mention to the fact that if Jon=TPTWP is true, then "Promise me, Ned" covers both that and Jon's parentage.... If R+L=J and the promise here is about Ned protecting Jon, as pretty much everyone assumes, then Jon is literally the Prince that was Promised...

I feel like this should be supporting both theories. Or is there a reason it's not included in them (it seems quite obvious to me????). Or, the other possible answer, it has been included in both theories and I've just not realised I've read it :lol:

You're not alone. ;) That has been mentioned in previous iterations of this thread.

[FrozenFire3]

GRRM confirming what on this thread has been frequently pointed out: all the stories have already been told, it's the way they are told that makes the difference.

I'm proud of my work, but I don't know if I'd ever claim it's enormously original. You look at Shakespeare, who borrowed all of his plots. In A Song of Ice and Fire, I take stuff from the Wars of the Roses and other fantasy things, and all these things work around in my head and somehow they jell into what I hope is uniquely my own.

The cliché argument is definitely invalid LOL

Also, from the same interview and on a tangential note, a passage about the importance of the dragons in the saga:

I knew I wanted to have the Targaryens have their symbol be the dragons; the Lannisters have the lions, the Starks have the wolves. Should these things be literal here? Should the Targaryens actually have dragons? I was discussing this with a friend, writer Phyllis Eisenstein – I dedicated the third book to her – and she said, "George, it's a fantasy – you've got to put in the dragons." She convinced me, and it was the right decision. Now that I'm deep into it, I can't imagine the book without the dragons.

Just in case someone is still struggling with the concept ;)

[Consigliere]

GRRM confirming what on this thread has been frequently pointed out: all the stories have already been told, it's the way they are told that makes the difference.

The cliché argument is definitely invalid LOL

Also, from the same interview and on a tangential note, a passage about the importance of the dragons in the saga:

Just in case someone is still struggling with the concept ;)

Thanks for posting.

Interviewer: A major concern in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones is power. Almost everybody – except maybe Daenerys, across the waters with her dragons – wields power badly.

LOL! And the guy claims to have read the books.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Thanks for posting.

Interviewer: A major concern in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones is power. Almost everybody – except maybe Daenerys, across the waters with her dragons – wields power badly.

LOL! And the guy claims to have read the books.

Sounds to me like he has read them.

I think GRRM would have corrected him if he disagreed.

[Consigliere]

Sounds to me like he has read them.

I think GRRM would have corrected him if he disagreed.

Maybe but saying that everyone, except Dany, wields power badly make me think that if he has read all the books then he wasn't paying much attention. He also sidesteps Martins question "who killed Joffery" immediately after saying he has read the books. At least give an opinion instead of saying "that happens early in the fourth season".

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Maybe but saying that everyone, except Dany, wields power badly make me think that if he has read all the books then he wasn't paying much attention. He also sidesteps Martins question "who killed Joffery" immediately after saying he has read the books. At least give an opinion instead of saying "that happens early in the fourth season".

Well maybe he meant people in a ruler/king/queen position not just anyone with power. The only rulers/kings/queens we have seen are Aerys, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey and Dany. And yes, out of those 5 I would have to say Dany is the best.

[Consigliere]

Well maybe he meant people in a ruler/king/queen position not just anyone with power. The only rulers/kings/queens we have seen are Aerys, Robert, Cersei, Joffrey and Dany. And yes, out of those 5 I would have to say Dany is the best.

His question did not come across that way, not to me at least. His question was concerning power in ASoIaF so I don't believe that he was only referring to kings/queens but rather everyone in a position of power.

I'm not saying Dany is crazy/evil or anything like that. She is flawed like everyone else. I'm questioning the interviewer saying everyone, except Dany, wields power badly. That is simply not true. She is not the worst but she isn't a saint either.

[shk12344]

Thanks for posting.

Interviewer: A major concern in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones is power. Almost everybody – except maybe Daenerys, across the waters with her dragons – wields power badly.

LOL! And the guy claims to have read the books.

The interviewer is probably a Dany fan. There are plenty of folks who thinks Dany is a good, wise ruler. Remember there are plenty of people around the world who believes Stalin and Hitler were good leaders. (BTW, I'm not comparing Dany to Stalin/Hitler, just using them to make a point)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The interviewer is probably a Dany fan. There are plenty of folks who thinks Dany is a good, wise ruler. Remember there are plenty of people around the world who believes Stalin and Hitler were good leaders. (BTW, I'm not comparing Dany to Stalin/Hitler, just using them to make a point)

You could say that about absolutely anyone. I think the stalin/hitler references must come to an end. Also we are getting way off topic here.

[Lyse Stark]

The interviewer is probably a Dany fan. There are plenty of folks who thinks Dany is a good, wise ruler. Remember there are plenty of people around the world who believes Stalin and Hitler were good leaders. (BTW, I'm not comparing Dany to Stalin/Hitler, just using them to make a point)

Actually there's a few people who wield power in good ways; Jon is one example, as he used his leverage to get food for the Night's Watch and the Wildings. And he married Alys Karstark off to Thenn in order to protect her from her uncle.

Daenerys tries to end slavery, but she's not doing in the correct way; often to end such misery requires a long-term politicial and economic shift. Remember the American South? It was once heavily dependent on slavery and cotton; the Civil War brought a end to it, and some areas still hasn't recovered from the loss of the slave trade.

[Eyron Stark]

First post on the forums...bit scared haha. Anyway, Dany isn't a great leader but she's doing the best she can with what she has. Also to consider is her stubborn nature about the Starks and her ideas of Westeros are not the reality of whats happening there. I doubt people in Westeros and the Houses will even accept her rule, what with the Dothraki culture being one of pillaging and raping. They'll see her as a savage queen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Sounds to me like he has read them.

I think GRRM would have corrected him if he disagreed.

Why would GRRM correct something that's an opinion?

[Fire Eater]

Thanks for posting.

Interviewer: A major concern in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones is power. Almost everybody – except maybe Daenerys, across the waters with her dragons – wields power badly.

LOL! And the guy claims to have read the books.

Dany undoes her endgame by telling the GG that the hostages were a bluff, and it fails to stop the Sons of the Harpy from killing. Also, she allowed herself to be excluded from negotiations. She has made her share of mistakes like everyone else.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dany undoes her endgame by telling the GG that the hostages were a bluff, and it fails to stop the Sons of the Harpy from killing. Also, she allowed herself to be excluded from negotiations. She has made her share of mistakes like everyone else.

I think he may have been staying at Harrenhal with Lyanna, and waiting with her for Brandon to pick them up for his wedding to Catelyn. I think Lyanna may have entrusted him to tell Brandon what happened when she ran off with Rhaegar. I think when Brandon came by, it was the first time he got drunk as he told Jon once, and Brandon got some garbled info that led him to assume the worst and head for KL. I think that may have led to Benjen joining the NW, as he felt guilty for what befell his family and the realm.

But if that's what happened then why wouldn't Benjen have gone with Brandon to KL?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

First post on the forums...bit scared haha. Anyway, Dany isn't a great leader but she's doing the best she can with what she has. Also to consider is her stubborn nature about the Starks and her ideas of Westeros are not the reality of whats happening there. I doubt people in Westeros and the Houses will even accept her rule, what with the Dothraki culture being one of pillaging and raping. They'll see her as a savage queen.

Hi Welcome to the Forum. Haha from what I have read It seems like Dany can alter peoples perception of her based on how she dresses. It is constantly mentioned in her POV's about donning the floppy ears and how she dresses like a Dothraki when she walks the piers in Qarth. And of course the one-breasted dress she wears to fit in with the high-class in SB and Qarth. All she has to do when she comes to Westeros is dress the part and not look like a Dothraki savage. My guess is they will mostly think of Targaryen royalty when they see her, especially on dragon back.

[Fire Eater]

But if that's what happened then why wouldn't Benjen have gone with Brandon to KL?

Because, Benjen was only a boy, and Brandon would have judged him too young to accompany them. Besides, Benjen was drunk, and Brandon may have decided to ride off before the day ended, since he thought his sister was kidnapped and being raped.

ETA: I just learned he was with his father on their way to Riverrun.

[Mithras]

A simple fact showing that why Dany can't be a good ruler.

"Common boys fight with wooden swords, too, only theirs are sticks and broken branches. Egg, these men may seem fools to you. They won’t know the proper names for bits of armor, or the arms of the great Houses, or which king it was who abolished the lord’s right to the first night . . . but treat them with respect all the same. You are a squire born of noble blood, but you are still a boy. Most of them will be men grown. A man has his pride, no matter how lowborn he may be. You would seem just as lost and stupid in their villages. And if you doubt that, go hoe a row and shear a sheep, and tell me the names of all the weeds and wildflowers in Wat’s Wood."

The boy considered for a moment. "I could teach them the arms of the great Houses, and how Queen Alysanne convinced King Jaehaerys to abolish the first night. And they could teach me which weeds are best for making poisons, and whether those green berries are safe to eat."

"They could," Dunk agreed, "but before you get to King Jaehaerys, you’d best help us teach them how to use a spear. And don’t go eating anything that Maester won’t."

Just past midday she came upon a bush growing by the stream, its twisted limbs covered with hard green berries. Dany squinted at them suspiciously, then plucked one from a branch and nibbled at it. Its flesh was tart and chewy, with a bitter aftertaste that seemed familiar to her. “In the khalasar, they used berries like these to flavor roasts,” she decided. Saying it aloud made her more certain of it. Her belly rumbled, and Dany found herself picking berries with both hands and tossing them into her mouth.

An hour later, her stomach began to cramp so badly that she could not go on. She spent the rest of that day retching up green slime.

Sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning. Every stool was looser than the one before, and smelled fouler. By the time the moon came up she was shitting brown water.

Dany lacks both the normal education of a prince and the sort of education Egg attended while squiring for Dunk. She did not have a Maester (his mule given to him by Aemon) to warn her about the green berries too.