Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part III: ASoS & ADwD

[Annara Snow]

BTW isn't it time to update our schedule? The one on the first page still reads:

ASoS
Daenerys I 5/4/14 PatrickStormborn
Daenerys II 5/11/14 MoIaF
Daenerys III 5/18/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys IV 6/1/14 MoIaF
Daenerys V 6/15/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys VI 6/22/14 Arya kiddin

ADwD
Daenerys I 6/29/14 PatickStormborn
Daenerys II 7/6/14 TheMysteriousOne
Daenerys III 7/13/14 Arya kiddon
Daenerys IV 7/20/14 Suzanne Stormborn
Daenerys V 7/27/14 Annara Snow
Daenerys VI 8/3/14 MoIaF
Daenerys VII 8/10/14 GoldenFlleese2
Daenerys VIII 8/117/14 SeanF
Daenerys IX 8/24/14 MoIaF
Daenerys X 8/24/14 QueenAlysanne

Barristan I 8/10/14 Parwan
Barristan II 8/10/14 Parwan
Barristan II 8/17/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Barristan IV 8/31/14 HelenaAndTheMachine

Tyrion II 7/6/14 Mladen

Tyrion III 7/6/14 Mladen

Tyrion VI 7/13/14 Mladen

Tyrion VII 7/20/14 Mladen

Tyrion VIII 7/27/14 Mladen

Tyrion IX 8/3/14 Mladen

Tyrion X 8/3/14 Mladen

Tyrion XI 8/10/14 Mladen

Tyrion XII 8/10/14 Mladen

Vicatrion 0 8/10/14 ???

Victarion I 8/17/14 ???

Quentyn I 7/13/14 Suzanne Stormborn

Quentyn II 7/27/14 Arya kiddon'

Quentyn III 8/10/14 ???

Quentyn IV 8/17/14 ???

But we are far behind - the last one that was posted was Daenerys V, ASOS.

[MoIaF]

BTW isn't it time to update our schedule? The one on the first page still reads:

snip

Done! Yeah, we have fallen a behind but I hope to catch up these next few weeks.

[Parwan]

She's not explaining why she thinks Robert "did no justice". But she's not saying that he was a usurper and that this is the reason why he couldn't have done justice, she's saying "he did no justice". You don't have any evidence to conclude that her thinking was: "he was a usurper, therefore not a true king, therefore he couldn't have done justice".

Yes, she wasn't around for his rule. But I can think of at least one instance of Robert not doing justice that Dany does know about: the murder of her nephews, a baby and a little girl, and of their mother. She knows that Robert not only did not punish the perpetrators, but rewarded them and accepted them, and became the son-in-law of the man who ordered the crime.

I say that I have good evidence that Dany's thinking is as I have stated. If that is not the basis for her claim, then what is the basis? Her statement, and indeed her entire attitude toward Robert Baratheon, is based upon the idea that the man was a usurper. If one says, "Henry II did no justice," then this, on the face of it, is a claim about the entire rule of Henry II. That is very different from saying, "I know of one or two cases where Henry II acted unjustly."

Furthermore, the context supports my assertion. Dany complains about Viserys. She says, "Why do gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?" She clearly has a very idealistic view of monarchy. We know that she also has an extremely idealized view of the Targaryens and of her father. Daenerys does not explain her reasons for making her claim against King Bob. That tends to show weakness in her thinking. I maintain that it indicates she does not believe she needs to offer any reasons.

Jorah offers a different view of things: "Some kings make themselves. Robert did." Dany rejects this out of hand. Of course, we readers know more. The rebellion was justified. I don't blame the queen for not knowing this. The fact of the matter, however, is that she doesn't even consider alternate possibilities. I'm not even too critical of her for this lack of consideration. At least, I'm not too critical of her on a personal level. She is acting like other members of her class: There is such a thing as a "true king." Once this "true king" is established, the subjects have almost no choice but slavish obedience. This is shown in many ways, e.g. the oath taken by the Kingsguard. If anyone in the 7K has even a theory about how to legitimately depose a monarch, then I am not aware of this theory. I see no indication of it in the text. RR was definitely not an example. A revolt, yes, but not a revolution. It was a reaction, a matter of self defense. The nature of the thing is shown clearly enough in the attitude of "Mr. Iron Law" himself, Stannis Baratheon. Stannis claims that he had a very hard choosing--his liege or his brother. Why was the choosing hard? If ever a king gave his lords legitimate reason to depose him, it was Aerys. Stannis's thoughts on the matter amount to this: If my family were not involved, then I'd only have one choice--fight for the mad man.

The point here is not to launch personal attacks on Stannis, or Eddard, or Dany, or anyone else. The point is that these people are more alike than is often realized. This is part of my general contention that Dany fits in.

[Julia H.]

@ Julia H

Welcome to the discussion. I agree with most of what you say. Yes, vengeance is different from justice. When I assert that many characters in ASoIaF see the two things as synonymous or largely synonymous, I'm pointing to a similarity in their thinking, and I'm showing where such thinking is defective. It's not just a matter of taking personal joy from striking back at those who have wronged you. Justice requires a system. There is scarcely any such system in the Seven Kingdoms.

Justice has to be seen as a thing in itself, not as a function of a "just lord." In my opinion, a good bit of the problem centers on one fact: In the 7K, we have the rule of men (or occasionally women), not of laws. Essentially all of the powerful people see things the same way--Everything is centered on the just ruler, not on just rules. There are, of course, good rulers and bad rulers. Some people are not prone toward vengeance; they may see it as different from justice. The fact of the matter, however, is that there are no true requirements placed on the rulers. Sure, there are all kinds of statements about how kings should be just. If a king is not just, however, there are no legal consequences. I don't see the 7K as a place that has a constitution or even as a place that shows any tendency toward the development of a constitution. I've argued these points in several different threads. This is not the place to go deeply into the matter. Here I'll compare one of Dany's statements to those of two other important characters. In A Storm of Swords, we read:

Obviously, Dany wasn't around for most of Robert's rule. She isn't making an empirical point. She doesn't think that it is necessary to delve into various decisions the man made or various actions he took. He was a usurper. It is no more possible for a usurper to do justice than it is for Satan to do good. In A Storm of Swords, Kevan Lannister says, "Justice belongs to the throne." In A Game of Thrones, Eddard Stark says, "All justice flows from the king." Daenerys Targaryen would, no doubt, have agreed with these (clearly defective) statements. There are significant differences in the three people. They certainly support different rulers. At a deep level though, their thinking is very similar, essentially identical.

Thank you for the welcome. I never meant to imply :stunned: that anyone on this thread is trying to blur the concepts of justice and vengeance. What I mean is that the distinction is thematically important in the novel, even though some characters use the two words as synonyms (which is probably also important). This is a medieval feudal society, where constitution and modern democracy are an anachronism. The king is whoever sits the Iron Throne – that is why it seems so outrageous to Ned that Jamie sat down there. This vital importance attached to an object that would seem only a symbol to us is historically perfectly accurate. In a medieval society in Europe, the royal crown was sacred and unless you were crowned with that, you were not a king. Loyalty to one's king / liege is a general value to uphold – one good reason to do that is that this is what defines your place in society. I think there is a general perception that the liege lord / king also has responsibilities in return – in a moral sense at least. (Of course, there is no established, legal way to make a king accountable for his actions - other than what Robert and Ned did, but rebellion is not exactly a legal process.)

Yes, Dany perfectly fits in with her ideas of kings and feudal society. (She is also against slavery, but so is Eddard.) And why not? She was brought up by Viserys after all.

As Eddard says, justice indeed falls to individual lords in this medieval world. There is no modern legal system to uphold justice, but people do have their own perceptions of justice (and we see instances where they can distinguish it from vengeance) – justice is a question of conscience and individual values. Leadership and individual (moral) responsibility, especially the responsibility of lords and kings (but also knights), are huge themes in ASOIAF. I think one of the reasons why these themes can be explored in such great detail is precisely this very emphatic lack of a universal code to prescribe what is the right thing to do. Although there are laws regarding various aspects of life, if you are a leader and especially if you are in a difficult or at least ambiguous situation, the ultimate choices fall to your conscience and to your individual moral values, and they will show who you are.

[Annara Snow]

I say that I have good evidence that Dany's thinking is as I have stated. If that is not the basis for her claim, then what is the basis? Her statement, and indeed her entire attitude toward Robert Baratheon, is based upon the idea that the man was a usurper. If one says, "Henry II did no justice," then this, on the face of it, is a claim about the entire rule of Henry II. That is very different from saying, "I know of one or two cases where Henry II acted unjustly."

I just gave you, in my previous post, a very good possible basis for Dany, or anyone, to claim that Robert "did no justice". There's no doubt that she generally thinks of Robert as a usurper, she said so some dozens of times. But she doesn't say "he was not a true king, so/therefore he did no justice". Those are two statements: you choose to think that there is a causal link: he was not a true king => therefore he did no justice, but you have no evidence of that.

There's also no doubt that Dany sees what happened to her family as injustice, I'm sure she counts it all as injustice - the rebellion, Aerys' murder, the murder of Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia; she is not right about the former (but she doesn't know that), but she's right about the latter. In any case, if she thought "Robert did no justice, because he got his throne over the dead bodies of my family and rewarded/became family with the men who murdered them, and tried to have me and my child assassinated", that would be different from the idea that she was making a statement that "Robert could never do justice, because he was no true king, because usurpers are unable to do justice". If she doesn't have to say: "Robert was no true king, so he couldn't have done justice" for you to conclude that this is what she meant, why does she have to say "Robert did no justice in this particular case/when my family got murdered and me and Viserys got exiled, he rewarded the murderers and later tried to have me and my unborn baby assassinated" for you to conclude that this is what she could have meant?

[Mithras]

Hehe, no one volunteers for a Victarion reread :D

[HexMachina]

Hehe, no one volunteers for a Victarion reread :D

You should volunteer to Victarion for this reread :)...

[Mithras]

You should volunteer to Victarion for this reread :)...

Nah, I can't be objective ;)

[Annara Snow]

So, how is that going to work? Are we really going to be analyzing 7 chapters on the same evening?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Daenerys XI: Queen of Meereen

“I will not march.” “ What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo. “Stay,” she said. “Rule. And be a queen.”

Summary

The chapter begins after the siege of Meereen has been completed. Dany ponders on loneliness and having a peaceful life. She then gives us a flash back of the siege of Meereen where, catapults, ladders and other siege equipment were used for the siege. After Meereen is conquered Dany asks for 163 of the leaders of Meereen for them to be crucified. She also describes the punishments for the rapists, murders and looters during the sack of Meereen.

Dany receives two envoys in her new throne room after we learn of events from the siege and sacking of Meereen. The first envoy tells her how King Cleon has become the new King of Astapor and the Yunkish are raising forces against her and the second envoy tells her about how some freed men would like to be sold into slavery. Dany allows people to have the choice to sell themselves however not anyone else.

Dany then decides to settle the issue she has with her knights Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan. Barristan explains that he hid his name to prevent the Lannisters from knowing about him and also to see if Dany had the taint, he tells Dany he will serve her in any way even as a cook and with a smile Dany pardons him. Jorah however in contrast is not pardoned by Dany but rather banished as he comes to her expecting to be forgiven alongside Dany finding out how long he had spied on her.

The chapter ends with Dany realizing she must stay in Meereen as she feels she is not fit enough to rule the seven kingdoms until she can prove she can handle the situation in Slaver’s Bay.

Observations

· At the beginning of the chapter Dany spends a lot of time thinking about how she doesn’t want to be at war anymore, as she even asks Missandei about her peaceful island, that make music rather than war

· Dany felt more comfortable in her breeches and Dothraki clothes rather than her court clothes, another of multiple signs of this throughout the re-read

· Dany makes a lot of comparisons between herself, Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaegar throughout the chapter.

· We find out Rhaella shielded Viserys from knowing the truth of his father

Analysis

The Two Envoys

After conquering Meereen Dany receives two envoys both coming to her for different reasons. The first envoy brings news from Astapor, where he states King Cleon has become the new King and that Cleon has made many of the highborn boys into Unsullied. The events that took place in Astapor after Dany left remind me of a very good example Ragnorak pointed out earlier in the re-read where the prisoners at Harrenhal would want revenge on their captors after being free (or something along that line). The same thing happens here in Astapor where the former slaves have risen up against the highborn to make them slaves. This shows the mistake Dany made, by leaving Astapor just to a council of freedmen. Another interesting parallel is when Dany took MMD under her wing, but MMD still took revenge against Drogo, this seems to be a recurring theme in Dany’s arc. Dany however shows that she has learned from her mistake as she is unsuprised by this and even compares it to the the former slaves in Meereen now acting like the place was theirs, and this leads Dany to stay in Meereen rather than march off as she did in Astapor.

Dany receives a second envoy that tells her that some of the freed slaves wanted to sell themselves back into slavery and she agrees to it but does not allow people to sell their children, wives etc. Missandei also advice Dany to tax people selling themselves. Many people have often used this part of the text as evidence that Dany is a hypocrite, because she taxes people selling themselves and at the same time she is fighting against slavery. I disagree with that assessment because I see Dany as a liberator such as Moses rather than someone planning to end slavery once and for all, meaning she is willing to free people who are in oppressed situations such as slavery or in other words, people that don’t like being slaves. One of the reasons Dany agrees to this is because Daario tells her they will have a better life in the Free Cities also later in A dance with dragons Dany tells Xaro that the reason she didn’t do anything against his slaves is because they were treated well. So at the end of the day I think it has to do with Dany against people who are actually owned and treated poorly rather than just the word “slavery” cause I am sure there are slaves in the Free cities that have better lives than people in Westeros and as much freedom, (Irri and Jhiqui under Dany come to mind).

163 slavers for 163 children

After Dany conquered Meereen she asked for 163 leaders and crucified them the same way the children were crucified. This wasn’t justice as a whole (And was a cruel act), as some of the masters chosen may have not supported the crucifixion of the 163 children however I believe it was necessary to still come up with the number “163”, as means of sending a message that a life of a slave is as important as the life of a slaver in Slaver’s Bay (I don’t support crucifixion but I still believe sending that message one message is necessary). The only parts I would critique are Dany’s methods of going about to get the number “163” and the method of execution. I think a quick clean death would have been better and drawing straws for the 163 masters as the children were also chosen randomly. Dany also mentions justice; I believe she meant justice for the children but not justice as whole.

Jorah Banished

Dany pardoned Barristan but banished Jorah. Daario stated that Dany should have either executed him or pardoned him. However the reason Daario says that is because he doesn’t understand the complexity of the relationship between Dany and Jorah. A few scribbles of Jorah to Dany:

· He was her advisor

· First person that swore fealty to her

· She believed he was her most trusted man

· Even though Dany wasn’t attracted to him, Dany wished she could love him back

· He was like a father to her

He betrayed her besides all this, and it would be very difficult for Dany to execute someone of this sort of nature even though he betrayed, he is like her family in a way. However I do think other characters in the story would have executed Jorah even if they had such close ties to him. And this shows Dany is a very compassionate person to those she loves even if they return her with wickedness (Viserys comes to mind). Dany adding Jorah to the list of her dead family also shows how much he meant to her.

Dany’s Reason to Stay in Meereen

Dany reason to stay in Meereen was to prevent what happened in Astapor to happen in Meereen. She also mentions that she she is not worthy to rule the seven kingdoms unless she can prove it in Meereen, many people over look this but I think it shows that Dany doesn’t believe she deserves to sit on the throne because she is a Targaryen she believes she has to prove it and I think this is a gem in her character compared to other claimants of the throne like Aegon. I also believe that sub-consciously she was tired of going to war and wanted a home; this is noted from her pondering at the beginning of the chapter and her curiosity of Missandei’s homeland which is apparently a peaceful place. She also mentions this during her hallucinations on the Dothraki Sea in ADWD. The end of the chapter also shows the lack of good advisors Dany has, all of them were against her staying in Meereen which in my opinion was the right decision. I’d even go as far as saying Quaithe is Dany’s best advisor even though she is cryptic.

Conclusion

This chapter marks the beginning of a new chapter in Dany’s life, as she is about to rule for the first time and has put her quest to Westeros on hold. It also is the beginning Dany beings really alone, as all the people that started with her in AGOT are gone and this is a time she really needs to put her trust in her dragons, but will she?

[MoIaF]

So, how is that going to work? Are we really going to be analyzing 7 chapters on the same evening?

You volunteering to fix the schedule? PM with a new schedule and I'll be happy to post it. :D

[Parwan]

I just gave you, in my previous post, a very good possible basis for Dany, or anyone, to claim that Robert "did no justice". There's no doubt that she generally thinks of Robert as a usurper, she said so some dozens of times. But she doesn't say "he was not a true king, so/therefore he did no justice". Those are two statements: you choose to think that there is a causal link: he was not a true king => therefore he did no justice, but you have no evidence of that.

There's also no doubt that Dany sees what happened to her family as injustice, I'm sure she counts it all as injustice - the rebellion, Aerys' murder, the murder of Rhaenys, Aegon and Elia; she is not right about the former (but she doesn't know that), but she's right about the latter. In any case, if she thought "Robert did no justice, because he got his throne over the dead bodies of my family and rewarded/became family with the men who murdered them, and tried to have me and my child assassinated", that would be different from the idea that she was making a statement that "Robert could never do justice, because he was no true king, because usurpers are unable to do justice". If she doesn't have to say: "Robert was no true king, so he couldn't have done justice" for you to conclude that this is what she meant, why does she have to say "Robert did no justice in this particular case/when my family got murdered and me and Viserys got exiled, he rewarded the murderers and later tried to have me and my unborn baby assassinated" for you to conclude that this is what she could have meant?

You seem to be saying that if I do not have absolute iron-clad proof that Dany was thinking exactly as I state that therefore I have no evidence that this is the most likely explanation. My reply would be that "evidence" is not the same as iron-clad proof. I don't think any logician would maintain that they are the same. I'm confident that just about any lawyer would say that a case can be very good without being open-and-shut. Dany is not a digital computer. She is not Data from Star Trek. She doesn't explicitly state what follows from what, what is the basis for each and every conclusion. Her tone, her general attitude, and the context of her statement all indicate that she was thinking pretty much as I say.

It's true that Dany has more than one basis for maintaining that Robert was not a good man. However, "no justice" should be taken at face value. It means "no justice." The man ruled for what--17 years? if anyone has no more information than Daenerys Targaryen does about those 17 years, then they do not have anything approaching a good basis that he did no justice.

I'm not sure I follow the underlined part of your post. I don't think she has to say exactly this in order for me to conclude that this is what she meant. Apparently you do. For me, it is not a matter of what she has to say. Neither Dany nor anyone else often puts things in terms of a formal argument. It's a matter of the most probable interpretation. She responds to Jorah scornfully. She says Robert was not a true king. She says he did no justice. It is beyond peculiar for a person to put those two statements together without at least strongly implying a causal link.

We can compare this to an earlier ASoIaF discussion. In ACoK, Jorah refers to Eddard Stark's honor. Dany says, "What honor could he have?...He was a traitor to his true king." I say that Daenerys was clearly stating that Eddard Stark had no honor and that she concluded this because he was "a traitor to his true king." Do you deny this? You could claim that, technically, Dany asked a question. She did not explicitly say that Lord Stark betrayed his true king and therefore had no honor. There are just two sentences that I am putting together, but I have no evidence of a causal link. You could say this. If you did, I'd say you have a very weak argument.

[SeanF]

Daenerys XI: Queen of Meereen

“I will not march.” “ What will you do then, Khaleesi?” asked Rakharo. “Stay,” she said. “Rule. And be a queen.”

Summary

The chapter begins after the siege of Meereen has been completed. Dany ponders on loneliness and having a peaceful life. She then gives us a flash back of the siege of Meereen where, catapults, ladders and other siege equipment were used for the siege. After Meereen is conquered Dany asks for 163 of the leaders of Meereen for them to be crucified. She also describes the punishments for the rapists, murders and looters during the sack of Meereen.

Dany receives two envoys in her new throne room after we learn of events from the siege and sacking of Meereen. The first envoy tells her how King Cleon has become the new King of Astapor and the Yunkish are raising forces against her and the second envoy tells her about how some freed men would like to be sold into slavery. Dany allows people to have the choice to sell themselves however not anyone else.

Dany then decides to settle the issue she has with her knights Ser Jorah and Ser Barristan. Barristan explains that he hid his name to prevent the Lannisters from knowing about him and also to see if Dany had the taint, he tells Dany he will serve her in any way even as a cook and with a smile Dany pardons him. Jorah however in contrast is not pardoned by Dany but rather banished as he comes to her expecting to be forgiven alongside Dany finding out how long he had spied on her.

The chapter ends with Dany realizing she must stay in Meereen as she feels she is not fit enough to rule the seven kingdoms until she can prove she can handle the situation in Slaver’s Bay.

Observations

· At the beginning of the chapter Dany spends a lot of time thinking about how she doesn’t want to be at war anymore, as she even asks Missandei about her peaceful island, that make music rather than war

· Dany felt more comfortable in her breeches and Dothraki clothes rather than her court clothes, another of multiple signs of this throughout the re-read

· Dany makes a lot of comparisons between herself, Aegon the Conqueror and Rhaegar throughout the chapter.

· We find out Rhaella shielded Viserys from knowing the truth of his father

Analysis

The Two Envoys

After conquering Meereen Dany receives two envoys both coming to her for different reasons. The first envoy brings news from Astapor, where he states King Cleon has become the new King and that Cleon has made many of the highborn boys into Unsullied. The events that took place in Astapor after Dany left remind me of a very good example Ragnorak pointed out earlier in the re-read where the prisoners at Harrenhal would want revenge on their captors after being free (or something along that line). The same thing happens here in Astapor where the former slaves have risen up against the highborn to make them slaves. This shows the mistake Dany made, by leaving Astapor just to a council of freedmen. Another interesting parallel is when Dany took MMD under her wing, but MMD still took revenge against Drogo, this seems to be a recurring theme in Dany’s arc. Dany however shows that she has learned from her mistake as she is unsuprised by this and even compares it to the the former slaves in Meereen now acting like the place was theirs, and this leads Dany to stay in Meereen rather than march off as she did in Astapor.

Dany receives a second envoy that tells her that some of the freed slaves wanted to sell themselves back into slavery and she agrees to it but does not allow people to sell their children, wives etc. Missandei also advice Dany to tax people selling themselves. Many people have often used this part of the text as evidence that Dany is a hypocrite, because she taxes people selling themselves and at the same time she is fighting against slavery. I disagree with that assessment because I see Dany as a liberator such as Moses rather than someone planning to end slavery once and for all, meaning she is willing to free people who are in oppressed situations such as slavery or in other words, people that don’t like being slaves. One of the reasons Dany agrees to this is because Daario tells her they will have a better life in the Free Cities also later in A dance with dragons Dany tells Xaro that the reason she didn’t do anything against his slaves is because they were treated well. So at the end of the day I think it has to do with Dany against people who are actually owned and treated poorly rather than just the word “slavery” cause I am sure there are slaves in the Free cities that have better lives than people in Westeros and as much freedom, (Irri and Jhiqui under Dany come to mind).

163 slavers for 163 children

After Dany conquered Meereen she asked for 163 leaders and crucified them the same way the children were crucified. This wasn’t justice as a whole (And was a cruel act), as some of the masters chosen may have not supported the crucifixion of the 163 children however I believe it was necessary to still come up with the number “163”, as means of sending a message that a life of a slave is as important as the life of a slaver in Slaver’s Bay (I don’t support crucifixion but I still believe sending that message one message is necessary). The only parts I would critique are Dany’s methods of going about to get the number “163” and the method of execution. I think a quick clean death would have been better and drawing straws for the 163 masters as the children were also chosen randomly. Dany also mentions justice; I believe she meant justice for the children but not justice as whole.

Jorah Banished

Dany pardoned Barristan but banished Jorah. Daario stated that Dany should have either executed him or pardoned him. However the reason Daario says that is because he doesn’t understand the complexity of the relationship between Dany and Jorah. A few scribbles of Jorah to Dany:

· He was her advisor

· First person that swore fealty to her

· She believed he was her most trusted man

· Even though Dany wasn’t attracted to him, Dany wished she could love him back

· He was like a father to her

He betrayed her besides all this, and it would be very difficult for Dany to execute someone of this sort of nature even though he betrayed, he is like her family in a way. However I do think other characters in the story would have executed Jorah even if they had such close ties to him. And this shows Dany is a very compassionate person to those she loves even if they return her with wickedness (Viserys comes to mind). Dany adding Jorah to the list of her dead family also shows how much he meant to her.

Dany’s Reason to Stay in Meereen

Dany reason to stay in Meereen was to prevent what happened in Astapor to happen in Meereen. She also mentions that she she is not worthy to rule the seven kingdoms unless she can prove it in Meereen, many people over look this but I think it shows that Dany doesn’t believe she deserves to sit on the throne because she is a Targaryen she believes she has to prove it and I think this is a gem in her character compared to other claimants of the throne like Aegon. I also believe that sub-consciously she was tired of going to war and wanted a home; this is noted from her pondering at the beginning of the chapter and her curiosity of Missandei’s homeland which is apparently a peaceful place. She also mentions this during her hallucinations on the Dothraki Sea in ADWD. The end of the chapter also shows the lack of good advisors Dany has, all of them were against her staying in Meereen which in my opinion was the right decision. I’d even go as far as saying Quaithe is Dany’s best advisor even though she is cryptic.

Conclusion

This chapter marks the beginning of a new chapter in Dany’s life, as she is about to rule for the first time and has put her quest to Westeros on hold. It also is the beginning Dany beings really alone, as all the people that started with her in AGOT are gone and this is a time she really needs to put her trust in her dragons, but will she?

Many thanks for this. This is a crucial chapter. In a way, it's the first chapter of A Dance with Dragons. Gone is the triumphant tone of most of Dany's story in ASOS, and now she's having to wrestle with the responsibilities of government. Picking up some points:-

1, Astapor Dany's difficulty is that almost no one in Slavers Bay shares her objection to slavery. That is as true of the slaves, as it is of the slaver. The slaves (although not all of them) object to their place in the system, not the system itself. Hence, Cleon is able to come to power with a programme of enslaving the children of their former masters, and restoring the slave trade.

2. Voluntary Slavery How does this work? In the Roman Empire, some people did sell themselves into slavery, in order to seek better lives. The fee was paid to their next of kin. Dany finds it hugely embarrassing that there are people who prefer to live as slaves abroad than to live under her rule. These are unlikely to be Great Masters, who (apart from the 163 crucified and those who died in defence of the city) are able to adapt pretty well to the new order. It's more likely that they're middle class, professional people. They seem to have borne the brunt of the sack, and had their property confiscated. The influx of freedmen from the other cities will mean that the value of their labour plummets. Selling themselves into slavery probably represents a good deal, from their point of view.

In my view, though, it drives a coach and horses through abolition, though. It leaves an infrastructure of slave-trading in place. How do you distinguish between voluntary, and involuntary slaves? Particularly as the sellswords Dany employs to supervise the process are susceptible to bribes.

3, The Crucifixion

This comes up again and again in discussions. There are two problems with it, in my view. Firstly, if people are chosen at random for execution (or in this case, told to give up their leaders for execution) it's almost inevitable that they will include a mix of guilty and innocent. This is pretty much an inevitable consequence of any kind of collective punishment. Secondly, it's a horrendous means of execution, probably the worst that's ever been devised. While it can be defended on the grounds of an eye for an eye, one loses the moral high ground by responding to torture with torture. There are some appalling characters in the series, who rape and torture. Would readers really be happy with the idea of more sympathetic characters using rape and torture as methods of punishment for their actions?

In political terms, it's an awful move. Dany chooses to rely on the Great Masters to keep the city functioning, once she's taken power. Meereen's a huge city, and even if the Great Masters and their families only number 1% of the population, there must be thousands of them. Does Dany really think that they'll forgive and forget the deaths of their relatives?

4. Jorah

What a fool! Dany is often criticised for banishing him, but I think she was entirely justified. His behaviour was an appalling breach of trust. He had partly made good, but really, an abject apology from Ser Jorah was something she was entitled to expect. Had he made that apology, he'd have been reinstated. Interestingly, she's ready to forgive Ser Barristan, despite the fact that he speaks quite bluntly of her father's failings. She recognises his honesty.

5. The Treatment of Slaves

Some slaves are pretty content with their position. Tyrion will reflect later that there are decent masters, as well as bad ones, just as there are decent lords and bad ones in Westeros. I would not go as far as Tyrion who sees little difference between servants in Westeros and slaves in Essos (and that may be a reflection on the way his family behaves towards servants. Household slaves are valuable property, and it's not in a master's interest to destroy valuable property.

Of course, the objection is that a slave's fate is arbitrary. A decent master may die, and his slaves may be inherited by an unpleasant master, who has no qualms about breaking up a slave's family. Or a master may choose to "free" his slaves to starve to death, when they reach old age.

Would Dany have done better to accept the existence of slavery, and work to end its most evil aspects, like the creation of the Unsullied, or forcing slaves into fighting pits, and prohibiting masters from torturing or executing them?

[Lady of Dragonstone]

4. Jorah

What a fool! Dany is often criticised for banishing him, but I think she was entirely justified. His behaviour was an appalling breach of trust. He had partly made good, but really, an abject apology from Ser Jorah was something she was entitled to expect. Had he made that apology, he'd have been reinstated. Interestingly, she's ready to forgive Ser Barristan, despite the fact that he speaks quite bluntly of her father's failings. She recognises his honesty.

I've heard it said that Daenerys can be naive, but I think she is talented at reading people and it may be one of her big strengths. "Ser Barristan walked with his head held high, but Ser Jorah stared at the marble floor as he approached. The one is proud, the other guilty." Daenerys takes time to make note of people's physical reactions to everything - not just the words they say. Words are wind, after all.

"Whatever I do, all I make is death and horror." Guilt is a common theme within this chapter. Barristan feels guilty for serving Robert after thinking about the Targaryens. Jorah's guilt over what he has done to Daenerys is there, and it shows by him rejecting his guilt, as he cannot accept that he's made mistakes, and does not apologize. Dany thinks over her actions so far in warfare, and attests to rule in Meereen, accepting her guilt and vowing to not make the same mistakes again. How can we compare and contrast these situations? Daenerys's guilt, for me as a reader, is a heavy pointer to the fact that she, in fact, does not possess the Targaryen madness. I cannot come to any other conclusion besides that. Aerys never expressed guilt for his actions, that we are aware of. Most madmen do not.

"Wars were won with gold as much as swords."

"Last night she had been reading of the three princesses in the red tower, locked away by the king for the crime of being beautiful."

We see Daenerys making attempts in this chapter to learn, and she is already showing that she does possess some raw intellect, noting that gold is just as important as arms. Later, we see Daenerys taking some personal time to read by herself. She's reading "children's stories" rooted in history from the Seven Kingdoms -- this one seems to be about Baelor the Blessed and the Maidenvault? Thinking critically, we know of all the analyses being posted about the stories we ofttimes hear in the novels, such as Old Nan's tales. A lot of readers hypothesize that these tales are true. It is interesting that Daenerys may be reading some of the same old tales.

In the Rogue Prince, it is revealed that Old King Jaehaerys may have fought otherwordly creatures beyond the Wall on a visit to the North. I wonder if that story is included in the book Daenerys is reading? :)

"The air was chilly, but the liked the feel of grass between her toes and the sound of the leaves whispering to one another."

""By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace." Jojen Reed

"By night, all the doors are black." Daenerys Targaryen

These two quotes connect the story in the North to the story here in Meereen. The first quote I included sounds awfully like the description of a godswood... perhaps *crackpot* a certain one, at a certain castle, in the North? ;) That's just wishful thinking on my part, but the whispering leaves put me into mind of the old gods. Has Daenerys ever seen a weirwood? Could she identify one if she saw it?

As I was reading along with you all on this chapter, Daenerys's quote about all the doors being black at night recalled to mind the Jojen quote where he tells Bran that all clocks are black, by night. A few lines after Daenerys says this, she notices that Dawn has come. "Look, Dawn comes." Anyone have any thoughts on this quote symmetry?

I've never posted in these threads before, however I have been a faithful reader and I am a big fan of Daenerys. She's always been my favorite character. Just wanted to throw some things out there to see if anyone noticed some of the same things I did. Sorry if it doesn't make any sense!

[Parwan]

...

3, The Crucifixion

This comes up again and again in discussions. There are two problems with it, in my view. Firstly, if people are chosen at random for execution (or in this case, told to give up their leaders for execution) it's almost inevitable that they will include a mix of guilty and innocent. This is pretty much an inevitable consequence of any kind of collective punishment. Secondly, it's a horrendous means of execution, probably the worst that's ever been devised. While it can be defended on the grounds of an eye for an eye, one loses the moral high ground by responding to torture with torture. There are some appalling characters in the series, who rape and torture. Would readers really be happy with the idea of more sympathetic characters using rape and torture as methods of punishment for their actions?

In political terms, it's an awful move. Dany chooses to rely on the Great Masters to keep the city functioning, once she's taken power. Meereen's a huge city, and even if the Great Masters and their families only number 1% of the population, there must be thousands of them. Does Dany really think that they'll forgive and forget the deaths of their relatives?

...

There are many important events in this chapter. I could spend a great deal of time discussing just a few of them. I want to concentrate on your #3. It is certainly a central matter, perhaps the truly vital one.

In my view, the entire Targaryen effort went badly off track here. Dany has to take most of the blame, because she is the leader. However, I can't see that anyone--advisers, sellswords, freedmen, etc.--did well. Apparently, the queen did not get good advice, and no one made any significant effort to dissuade her from making critical mistakes. If anyone did so, then the text does not indicate it. By my reading, it indicates otherwise.

There are moral problems. Crucifixion is harsh, even by the standards of Planetos. Dany fails to distinguish between revenge and justice. Once again, this is not a unique problem with the dragon queen. I think a lot of leaders who had been through what Daenerys has undergone would have done something similar to what she did, at least in terms of the severity of punishment meted out. Thus, her failure is partially to be expected. Distinguishing between revenge and justice is not typical of leaders who accept the idea of collective punishment. But a failure which is typical of an entire class of people is a failure nevertheless.

When you combine the moral problems with the political ones, things get much worse. Dany brutalizes the former rulers, but she fails to break their power. Your "...forgive and forget" question is well put. It seems that neither Dany nor any of her people considered the matter at all. Making a point is all well and good, but what the hell was the point that the Targaryen forces were trying to make? I believe that other new rulers would likely have done much better here. Standard operating procedure would have been something like this:

Make it clear that things have changed and that you are in charge. Don't worry so much about striking back against previous wrongs. Emphasize that you are the ruler. Require that all of those formerly in power swear oaths of fealty. Anyone who breaks these oaths in the future will be considered a traitor and treated as such. This would include not only people who commit crimes against the city, but those who fail to cooperate with the authorities in apprehending such criminals. For example, men who participate in an enemy blockade of the city are guilty of treason. Their families are suspect. If said families fail to take action against the traitors, then their property may be confiscated.

Wealth, privilege, and power can be redistributed in various ways. One does not have to be a socialist to engage in redistribution. In the current case, as in just about all similar cases, the ownership of property, the places at court, the control of the pyramids, etc., should go to houses that cooperate. Those who resist, or even fail to cooperate, can find other lodging and other means of livelihood.

Take hostages now, damn it! That would be the sensible thing to do. If 163 is such an important number, then you can take 163 hostages. When you say that you want the leaders, you should be able to tell if you are, in fact, given the leaders. That wouldn't be much of a problem. Some of your advisers (e.g Brown Ben Plumm) and the freedmen of Meereen can help identify the correct men and women. There are other possibilities. You might take 160 hostages and execute 3 of the most recalcitrant former leaders. You might take 163 hostages and also conduct 163 executions...You might do lots of things. The important point is that you should look to the future. You shouldn't just react emotionally to what happened in the past.

[SeanF]

That's all very sensible. There are counter-arguments put, that she should have killed all the Great Masters, or even the entire free population. Leaving aside the morality of such measures, that would surely have provoked a savage revolt in the hinterland of Meereen. Why shouldn't people fight to the bitter end, if they know that surrender isn't an option? Also, Dany would run into the same problem that any revolutionary movement faces if they kill or expel the upper and middle classes; there's nobody left with the technical skill to run things.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

2. Voluntary Slavery How does this work? In the Roman Empire, some people did sell themselves into slavery, in order to seek better lives. The fee was paid to their next of kin. Dany finds it hugely embarrassing that there are people who prefer to live as slaves abroad than to live under her rule. These are unlikely to be Great Masters, who (apart from the 163 crucified and those who died in defence of the city) are able to adapt pretty well to the new order. It's more likely that they're middle class, professional people. They seem to have borne the brunt of the sack, and had their property confiscated. The influx of freedmen from the other cities will mean that the value of their labour plummets. Selling themselves into slavery probably represents a good deal, from their point of view.

In my view, though, it drives a coach and horses through abolition, though. It leaves an infrastructure of slave-trading in place. How do you distinguish between voluntary, and involuntary slaves? Particularly as the sellswords Dany employs to supervise the process are susceptible to bribes.

3, The Crucifixion

This comes up again and again in discussions. There are two problems with it, in my view. Firstly, if people are chosen at random for execution (or in this case, told to give up their leaders for execution) it's almost inevitable that they will include a mix of guilty and innocent. This is pretty much an inevitable consequence of any kind of collective punishment. Secondly, it's a horrendous means of execution, probably the worst that's ever been devised. While it can be defended on the grounds of an eye for an eye, one loses the moral high ground by responding to torture with torture. There are some appalling characters in the series, who rape and torture. Would readers really be happy with the idea of more sympathetic characters using rape and torture as methods of punishment for their actions?

In political terms, it's an awful move. Dany chooses to rely on the Great Masters to keep the city functioning, once she's taken power. Meereen's a huge city, and even if the Great Masters and their families only number 1% of the population, there must be thousands of them. Does Dany really think that they'll forgive and forget the deaths of their relatives?

5. The Treatment of Slaves

Some slaves are pretty content with their position. Tyrion will reflect later that there are decent masters, as well as bad ones, just as there are decent lords and bad ones in Westeros. I would not go as far as Tyrion who sees little difference between servants in Westeros and slaves in Essos (and that may be a reflection on the way his family behaves towards servants. Household slaves are valuable property, and it's not in a master's interest to destroy valuable property.

Of course, the objection is that a slave's fate is arbitrary. A decent master may die, and his slaves may be inherited by an unpleasant master, who has no qualms about breaking up a slave's family. Or a master may choose to "free" his slaves to starve to death, when they reach old age.

Would Dany have done better to accept the existence of slavery, and work to end its most evil aspects, like the creation of the Unsullied, or forcing slaves into fighting pits, and prohibiting masters from torturing or executing them?

In terms of the Crucifixion I think even if Dany was able to discover only 50 masters were responsible for the crimes, it still would have been important to have the number "163" in terms of sending a message that slaves lives are the same as the masters.

The masters may not forgive Dany, but if the number was only 50 I think there would have been tension amongst the freedmen that lost their children and they might retaliate and take revenge in their own hands.

This what I believe she is leaning toward. Dany has never said she is fighting against the institution of slavery but rather she is against people being oppressed by slavery. That's why she isn't against Xaro's slaves cause she stated they were treated well.

In my opinion "slaves" is kind of just a word in the story in some cases, cause I am pretty sure there are slave owners that treat their slaves like the way Dany treats her servants and would allow them freedom anytime they want. And some slaves I am sure are equivalent to the servants in Westeros as Tyrion noted.

[Fire Eater]

Alright, MoIAF, it's about time.

I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice.

I agree about the crucifixion. It wasn't justice, but vengeance. I disagree with Queen Alysanne that it was important to send a message, that message could have just as easily been sent by simply executing the men responsible. The thoughts quoted above are a bit disturbing, in that she is justifying her actions that she herself finds horrifying by saying to herself they all deserved it.

Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world?

Anyone think this points to the Mother of Mountains when she is declared StMtW?

As for taking Meereen, Dany shows high competence in the area of military offenses, specifically siege measures. She has shown to be resourceful in building a battering ram and turtle, siege ladders, mantlets and catapults. She sends a force to infiltrate the city through the sewers whilst the City Guard is focused at the walls and distracted by the burning hulk.

Drogon was perched up atop the pyramid, in the place where the huge bronze harpy had stood

A dragon replacing the harpy is good symbolism for the changes as well. She has taken up residence in the Great Pyramid, the largest and most luxurious of the pyramids in Meereen. It sends a message, the Great Pyramid rises above all the other pyramids and buildings just as Dany is above the Grand Masters and the rest of Meereen. She also had the old harpy throne broken into firewood, sending the signal for a regime change, and a new Meereen.

As for the Yunkai'i they are raising armies, hiring sellswords and calling for allies. Never mind that Dany pretty much gave them a monopoly over the slave trade in Slaver's Bay with Meereen and Astapor out of the game with the price of slaves having risen and profits likely increased. They remember the stories of Valyria's wars with Old Ghis. They don't feel comfortable with dragons and an army on their doorstep led by a queen with an antislavery stance.

2. Voluntary Slavery How does this work? In the Roman Empire, some people did sell themselves into slavery, in order to seek better lives. The fee was paid to their next of kin. Dany finds it hugely embarrassing that there are people who prefer to live as slaves abroad than to live under her rule. These are unlikely to be Great Masters, who (apart from the 163 crucified and those who died in defence of the city) are able to adapt pretty well to the new order. It's more likely that they're middle class, professional people. They seem to have borne the brunt of the sack, and had their property confiscated. The influx of freedmen from the other cities will mean that the value of their labour plummets. Selling themselves into slavery probably represents a good deal, from their point of view.

The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen.

Gently born means of noble birth, so they are members of the Meereenese elite.

Barristan shows honesty and humility in his meeting with Dany. He tells her he served Robert because he was brave, chivalrous knight who spared his life and the lives of many others while Viserys was a boy who showed signs of madness. He tells her the true reason he kept his identity secret, he wanted to see what she was like as he didn't want to serve another Mad King Aerys. He opens her up to truths about her family's past, Aerys was mad, but his charm and generosity allowed his initial lapses to be forgiven. Dany stops him, and they both agree that she in ready to hear the whole truth regarding her family.

There was no sign of Viserion, but when she went to the parapet and scanned the horizon she saw pale wings in the far distance, sweeping above the river . . . One day one of them may not return, she thought.

I think this can be taken as a clue that Viserion won't survive the series. Drogon left, but he did return. He is above a river, and I think that would be where he might die, perhaps in a second Battle of the Trident.

A bird began to chirp in the persimmon tree, and then two more. Dany cocked her head to hear their song, but it was not long before the sounds of the waking city drowned them out.

Persimmon is a symbol of transformation. Dany is the first one to transform Meereen, and I think two more will come to transform the city: Victarion (not in a good way I think, more brutal) and Tyrion.

Dany decides to stay in Meereen for her dragons to grow bigger and stronger, and for her to learn the civil aspects of ruling. She also wants Meereen to avoid the fate of Astapor.

[SeanF]

Fire Eater, they may be related to the Great Masters, but I don't think they're at the top of the tree. I think you're looking at people like the woman who was robbed of her home and jewels by her former slaves, rather than the inhabitants of the pyramids. Say, people within the top 5% of the population, rather the the top 1%.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

snip

Welcome to the Daenerys reread :)

Your post was very great :bowdown:

I agree guilt is a major theme within this chapter.

I also like the parallel you spotted between Jojen's quote and Dany's quote, I'm still mulling over it on what it could mean, there are a lot of parallels between Dany and Bran so I believe you could be on to something.

I agree about the crucifixion. It wasn't justice, but vengeance. I disagree with MoIAF that it was important to send a message, that message could have just as easily been sent by simply executing the men responsible. The thoughts quoted above are a bit disturbing, in that she is justifying her actions that she herself finds horrifying by saying to herself they all deserved it.

I was the one that made that claim not MOIAF :p

My point on "a message being sent" is not only on the message being sent to the noble class of Meereen but also to the former slaves. I recurring theme within Dany's arc is freed slaves going for revenge on their masters after being free. The closest magnified character we have on that is MMD after she was taken under the wing by Dany, she still went for revenge because she had lost everything and then there is also the parallel of Arya at Harenahall and then the former slaves in Astapor making the noble men slaves. Fast forward to Meereen even if Dany investigated and found out the people responsible, lets assume 50, for it and executed them, I'm pretty sure many of the freed slaves that lost their children would try to make up that "163" so they would feel justified, I suspect it would be something like the Harpy murders but this time from the freed slaves themselves.

The point of 163 for 163 is to symbolize that the nobles and former slaves all have the same right to life, the act is not justice but it is necessary to show the equality of human life especially from the point of view of newly freed slaves.