Arya in TWOW Arya is in BIG trouble... (Mercy chapter spoilers)

[Le Cygne]

She wasn't chased by the tree, the tree was watching her as she ran.

[sweetsunray]

Every once and a while I like to come back to this and similar threads and repeat what I have previously said. Arya is not in any trouble. The first rule of being a Faceless Man above all other is "Lie". Everything that people are saying are rules are Lies. FM give the gift of death and do it efficiently and covertly. Arya was never punished for killing. She was rewarded. Those statements against killing people you know and killing that is not necessary for the mission describe how best to kill. Surely you do not want to kill someone known to you, you may be a suspect. Killing unnecessarily may lead to your detection. FM worship death. Arya is not just a little girl. She is a magical creature with a stronger relationship to death than any other character in the series. I am going to go out on a limb here and say the FM love her. They may even come to worship her. She may prove to be their champion in this game and I am not talking about the Iron Throne but the larger game with the Others. The bigger question is what side are they on? Or even if there are sides?

I think it's important to note the FM's faith in contrast to that of R'hllor.

Red priests -

- supposedly a religion about life, but assassinating people with magic shadow babies born from a man's life energy throug his seed

- burning people alive in flames - neither painless, nor meant as a gift

- bringing people back from the dead (undead Beric, undead LS) - not everyone must die apparently

- for the night is dark and full of terror - instilling fear in followers

- claiming Dany to be Azor Ahay, who tries to end slavery, but priestesses and many other servants in their temples are child slaves bought and raised for the worship

-> portrays itself as the supporter of life and light, but basically a bunch of fanatic murderers who want to defy the most basic natural laws of life

FM

- supposedly assassins for hire but clearly very much a religion, perhaps more so than R'hllors and the price is not for enrichment, except for material that can be used as props or children to be trained

- the gift is meant to be swift and as painless and least messy as possible no matter whether you were cruel or good in your life as an answer to a prayer... many who die basically die with a form of assisted suicide. One of the main instruments to kill is poison and accidents

- valar morghulis (everyone must die, basic natural law of life): undead people would be abhorrent to the FM + death is not something to fear

- abhors slavery, heck the religion got started by ending the suffering of slaves in the mines of Valyria, and is the major temple of Braavos, a city that abhors all type of slavery, serfdom or those put to work after being taken by IB reavers, a city that enforced Pentos to abolish slavery as well

-> portrays itself as a assassins for hire, but is actually a cult of preserving the natural order of life and death and abhors suffering

OTHERS

- things that apparently don't die (unless by dragon glass) and can sleep for thousand of years

- they take male babies and transform them into others by touch

- they have wights (undead) that defy nature's law of life and death

- fire kills wights

- disrupt the seasons and weather and daytime: long night and extreme frost

WARGS/GREENSEER

- operate from the shadow and darkness and dreams

- control of animals but 3 taboos (copulating as wolf with wolf, eating humans, mind control over other humans)

- cooperative with children of the forrest

- last greenseer's cave protected against wights and others entering

- nature religion with weirwoods to watch

We know 3-eyed Raven has one warg who's a greenseer Bran under his power

Melisandre tries to have Jon as warg under her power, and she's R'hllor fanatic and believes that the others must be fought, while many stuff of her magic and religion shares a lot with the Others

The FM have Arya as a warg, and I certainly don't think they'd be fans of Others, because they use unnatural things like wights

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Red priests and shadowbinders are 2 different things.

[AzorAhai = Ice&JSnow]

@ Gerg Sknav ( and for all ! )

I don't understand why your taking everything the KM says as absolute truth? You must realize that he serves the Many Faced God which decides who lives/dies and which "hits" are to be carried out.

All the main characters break the mold of what was and what is to come and this should be no different with Arya and tHoBW/FM. Dany has dragons though they're "extinct", Bran is to be the most powerful "greenseer", John will likely be Azor Ahai and Arya will be the top assassin or person to do the bidding of the Many Faced God.

Yes there are "rules" and training with the FM that she must follow to gain the skills needed to complete her training but this doesn't mean that the MFG doesn't have special rule bending/breaking plans for her that may contradict the current teachings of the FM. Specifically in Mercy where she seems to yet again have this "luck" where the people she has on her kill list coincide with those that the MFG want her to kill and her goal of retribution. The KM, I am sure, chooses contracts that come his way bc they are sent to him by the will of the MFG not bc he decides " hey the pay is good on this one" or " according to the rules we chose this guy over that one". All hits I believe are not sought out, but dropped in their laps seemingly by coincidence, just as Arya seems to keep runnining into the ppl she wants to kill.

For your thoughts on " you can't kill anyone you know", technically all FM are "no one" and if that's the case then they don't really know anybody anymore so everyone is fair game, which is kinda the point. Becoming a FM is about serving the MFG as he serves up contracts or non contract "hits" your way and doing so not for your own purposes but bc the MFG desires it.

I believe Arya may have been tested and properly served the MFG regardless of how the KM or other FM may feel about it ( remember they are the servants too not the be all end all ).

When she killed Raff the key is she didn't reveal herself as Arya and state that her revenge was fulfilled, instead she took the gift the MFG gave her in stride, didn't break from being no one/Mercy ( at least externally ) and hence she did as she should. She may have broken the rule as far as the KM is concerned but clearly the MFG has different plans than those for a usual FM in training.

I believe that IF the KM didn't sanction the Raff kill in some way there may be a punishment, or if Arya breaks the rules in his eyes again they could make her drink the "poison" and when it doesn't kill her as it should then all the FM/KM will know she is chosen by the MFG to become a FM regardless of her supposed offenses. I think she will become a FM before heading back to Westeros and make use of her many faces. One way she will get around any potential defiance of the "rules" will be through her warging ability by being able to carry out revenge kills through Nymeria that aren't served up to her through the MFG.

[sweetsunray]

Arya's chapters of the FM must be carefully read.

The whole idea of "killers for huge sums of money - money grabbers" is wrong. The only source for that really is LF. He inquired with them on a hit on someone and they asked such a high price (and money is all he cares for) that he said, "No thank you, I can buy 2 sellsword armies with that amount of money." Seems to me they didn't want to do the hit at all, and asked an outrageous sum so that LF would forget about it. For the outside world they are known as hired assassins who'll kill anyone as long as you pay the price for it. They want that image, but it isn't necessarily what they are. By asking for a ridiculous sum they make sure they don't have to do the hit without refusing the request. LF's shallow psychopathic mind can't fathom there might be something else at play.

LF's "god forbid what they ask for a princess!" line is negated by Jaqen's actions: Arya throws an axe at the burning cage (that is all she effectively does, albeit at her own life's risk). Jaqen still has to free himself and the two others out of the burning cage himself. And yet he offers her "3 names" (any names), and he even insists with Arya for the third name to be King Joffrey. So basically, Jaqen is very eager even to kill a king for the price of an axe thrown within seizing range. And what was the price for Balon. Obviously a dragon egg, and exactly in the way Euron told it - he had to chuck the dragon egg overboard. That way a dragon egg ends up at the botom of the ocean where it is unlikely it will ever hatch. Dragons were the beasts Valyria used to enslave people. The FM were enemies of the dragonlords (hte slave masters) and might even have caused the doom.

The kindly man plays with words with Arya. He tells her they kill good people as well as bad people. This is true, but it should not be taken to mean they assassinate just anyone as long as the price is paid. The "good" people we see die with the help of the FM are in fact those who pray for death and drink from the pool. Assisted suicide was the primary function of the FM. The first FM first started to kill to help the slaves in the Valyrian mines out of the misery when they prayed for it. Their secondary function is answering the murder prayers if the price is paid. But whose murder will be prayed for? The masters, the conman, the abusers. After only assisting in suicide with the slaves, the first FM ends up hearing the prayer for a slave master to be killed in return for all the slave owns. He kills the master and the slave must serve the Many Faced God after that (he offered all he had, and his life was all he had) and that slave became the second FM. They grew from there. So, basically, the downtrodden are assisted to die peacefully, the abusive masters are murdered. That is their origin. Now why the hell would that have altered? So, when the kindly man says they kill good and bad people, he's being deceptive on how differently they kill the good and the bad.

All the targets we know about who have been assassinated were morally reprehensive people, masters, who were abusive. Balon wants to install the old ways again of the iron price, of salt wifes, of reaving (reaving is as much forbidden in Braavos as slavery, and the FM were probably at least part of the founders of Braavos, as Braavos original people were runaway slaves). The first two Jaqen kills were child beaters and a gang rapist. The insurance man was a conman who cheated a ship captain or small ship owner out of their money and made their widows and children destitute. And I even suspect the abusive father of the ugly girl was murdered by FM as well even though the ugly girl didn't pray for his death. The Waif's stepmother tried to poison her in order to get rid of the heir.

They don't punish Arya for killing Dareon at all. She actually gets rewarded with the first test and training in order to become an acolyte (we know the blinding stuff is a test and form of training, because initially there's another acolyte going through the exact same thing), instead of a mere servant and then after that gets her first hit assignment.

The kindly man says "It's not for you to judge." Notice he says 'you', not 'us'. A starting acolyte of course should not be making the decisions for the FM. Her sole concern ought to be "I do my job well." But it doesn't mean that the higher priests don't pick their targets and don't judge them. She asks whether the insurance man is a bad man. The kindly man answers "There's good and bad in everyone." Sure, the insurance conman might have a pet cat he's nice to for all we know, but he sure made families destitute, lose their homes, their income, might even have resulted in the death of disease while begging on the streets.

The kindly man assures Arya that both the ugly girl and the abusive father are dead. She asks whether the FM killed the father. He sidesteps the question with two indirect answers. First he says the ugly girl didn't pray for the father's death. But that's not really an answer. Then she asks how he died. The kindly man answers "like all men must die", implying either accident, illness, old age, whatever... but he immediately also continues the sentence with "like a certain man [Arya's target] will die tomorrow." The insurance man will die by the hand of an acolyte of the FM (Arya and poison). Hence, the abusive father was murdered by the FM too, and more importantly... without someone praying for his death. I suspect they use the removal of the face process to find out why that person came to the house with the will to die, and actually decide wether a person deserves to die for the harm they caused, regardless whether it was prayed for or not... the price is already paid for - the victim gave up their life.

So, no, I don't think Arya will be in much trouble for killing Raff the Sweetling. It's even possible that the murder fits into her mission. The FM and the Iron Bank and the Sealord tend to be three main entities of Braavos - justice, finance and politics. The Iron Bank and the Sealord would want Cersei's mission to fail. But just like the FM won't outright refuse a request but instead ask such a ridiculous high price that the inquirer like LF says "fuck that," the IB and the Sealord won't say "no" to the KL mission. But they can use a scandal for the mission to be aborted from KL pov, or provide the IB and Sealord with a scandal to say "no" to KL. As for Arya, it will seem as if she's punished for it, but like with Blind Beth, it will just be a new phase of her training.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I may have misread this but my impression is that she is planning on leaving the faceless men by taking out Raff and infiltrating his party to go back to King's Landing to work on her "hit list". Yes, I think the faceless men will eventually hunt her down as she "knows too much". Sort of like "no one ever leaves the KGB".

[sweetsunray]

I may have misread this but my impression is that she is planning on leaving the faceless men by taking out Raff and infiltrating his party to go back to King's Landing to work on her "hit list". Yes, I think the faceless men will eventually hunt her down as she "knows too much". Sort of like "no one ever leaves the KGB".

Arya knows she won't be able to be Mercy anymore after what she did (either the job is done, or she expects a punishment a la Blind Beth and she couldn't be Cat of the Canals anymore). There's no reason though to believe she's leaving the FM. And how would she infiltrate the party of KL? It's not like it's an army of 1000 unknowns. She's been praying her list for a long time already, biding her time. Arya has patience.

And what does Arya really know of the FM? Like with all organisations there are layers and levels of initiation. She knows people go there to drink from a pool of poison (common knowledge). She knows people can pray for someone to be killed, for a "price" and that somebody who does not know the target kills them. (common knowledge). She knows they have faces of the dead and that they somehow can make an assassin wear them (not common knowledge, but not entirely regarded as a secret, since Jaqen shows her exactly that while she's in Westeros). She knows they use poisons and how to make them (that they use poison is common knowledge, and the poisons are known to be used and made by other orders as well). She knows the story of their origins. (certainly in Braavos this would be common knowledge as well).

Arya does not know anything yet that is not already known to most and some of the outside world. And some of what she thinks she knows is neither damning or the truth really. If she wants out, she could. She could blab all she wants, and noone would be the wiser. And she wouldn't have any reason to blab either. Why would a girl trying to integrate back into society blab she trained with the FM for a year. And how many would even believe her if she did. There's no reason whatsoever for the FM to fear Arya if she were to leave.

[Masha]

Just because Arya calls the old guy "the kindly man" doesn't mean he actually is merciful. It is, after all, an assassin training camp and with religious overtones graduates into cult indoctrination type. Those kind of people DO NOT take running away kindly, so to say. I think, if Arya is ever discovered that she murdered Raff the Sweetling and he is NOT on FM list, she will be punished far more severely than being temp blind and graduation into next step. And if Arya decides to escape, those type of people DO NOT leave to chance that the disobedient girl might blab to anyone any of their secrets, even if they are sort of "open secrets in Braavos" type. If Arya ever runs away without FM permission, expect them to catch up to her eventually. I do not know if they punish runaway apprentices by killing them or they might give her something to make her disabled (blind, deaf, mute, etc) or put her in coma, or kill her dear friend (ex. Gendry) or have her do the final assignment and kill someone like Dany, (f)Aegon instead of someone bad - like LF or Ramsey Snow. Perhaps, since books are different from the show, the FM who will catch up to her would be the man who used to be Jaquen Hadar.

I can definitely see her story unfolding that in the next book she escapes back to Westeros, uses her newfound skills to get some of her list, actually meet some of her siblings and then at the end of last book, after final battle, etc - have FM get to her and either murder her or put her into coma and have the ASOIAF end with that for her story.

[sweetsunray]

Just because Arya calls the old guy "the kindly man" doesn't mean he actually is merciful. It is, after all, an assassin training camp and with religious overtones graduates into cult indoctrination type. Those kind of people DO NOT take running away kindly, so to say. I think, if Arya is ever discovered that she murdered Raff the Sweetling and he is NOT on FM list, she will be punished far more severely than being temp blind and graduation into next step. And if Arya decides to escape, those type of people DO NOT leave to chance that the disobedient girl might blab to anyone any of their secrets, even if they are sort of "open secrets in Braavos" type. If Arya ever runs away without FM permission, expect them to catch up to her eventually. I do not know if they punish runaway apprentices by killing them or they might give her something to make her disabled (blind, deaf, mute, etc) or put her in coma, or kill her dear friend (ex. Gendry) or have her do the final assignment and kill someone like Dany, (f)Aegon instead of someone bad - like LF or Ramsey Snow. Perhaps, since books are different from the show, the FM who will catch up to her would be the man who used to be Jaquen Hadar.

I can definitely see her story unfolding that in the next book she escapes back to Westeros, uses her newfound skills to get some of her list, actually meet some of her siblings and then at the end of last book, after final battle, etc - have FM get to her and either murder her or put her into coma and have the ASOIAF end with that for her story.

Agreed that the name Arya gives the priest does not imply he is actually a "kind" or "gentle" man.

I would nuance though the "assassin training camp". That creates for an image where acolytes learn all type of fighting and killing methods. We don't see that happen really, aside from learning how to make poisons. Instead it is a training of the senses, and indeed of their philosophy, with cult like notions to make her "no one". But most other skills are picked up outside the house: as Cat of the Canals and as Mercedene.

The blinding was NO punishment, none at all. We know another acolyte was blinded when she started out as a servant first. It would have happened regardless whether she had killed Dareon or not, sooner or later. It's only because she did it, that her "training" began in earnest to see whether she was worthy of being an acolyte.

I wouldn't be surprised if Arya actually told the kindly man that she killed Raff, and that they will make her drink another potion, to make her deaf or mute or handicapped. But like before it would be a new test and another training of her senses.

No, they're not going to kill someone she loves. It's just not their way. They're smarter than she thinks too, and will probably realize she can't let go of Arya. And I think that eventually they will send her away on a so called mission to Westeros, but actually sending her home.

[aryagonnakill#2]

sweetsunray, 3 very nice posts from you above.

[TreeFaces]

Sweetsunray, thank you for these posts! Well done!

Has it been noted that many Red Priests seem to have a history of being ex-slaves and the origin of the GoMF. Is that first statement correct? It has been strongly hinted that Mel might have been a slave and also through Tyrion's chapters in ADWD, isn't R'hllor popular amongst the slaves in Volantis? Working from memory here.

[Whitering]

Here's the deal,

Arya didn't go into a Sam style narrative of her journey to the KoM, he simply saw the sadness in her eyes and with all the trouble of Westeros and likely knowing something of the downfall of her family, and her being linked to one of the Faceless Men, means she was in some shit.

However, she was still a 9 or 10 year old girl, and they aren't known for being killers. When she killed Daeron, as miffed as they might have been for going her own way, they moved her into actual training, because she proved she could take a life (they didn't know she'd killed a few people before that). (Other people of course have pointed this out).

What they have is highborn noble woman of Westeros. She knows how to act nobly, even if she doesn't normally do so, and that's not necessarily a skill that easy to learn. She is super diligent with an amazing work ethic who is not stuck in the highborn role, she will clean steps on her knees, chop vegetables, sleep on a hard bed, no complaints.

She's a pretty amazing asset. Now maybe they really are a religious institution that will kick out this amazing asset for going off book again, but then they didn't punish her for Daeron, so...

On top of that we have Jaqen killing a bunch of people none of whom Arya sacrificed anything for and people he knew, at least by seeing them around Harrenhall, so maybe they aren't actually insanely strict, but just try to impress that on their students.

I don't know, it's too hard to tell, but she's an amazing asset if they can get a handle on her.

[Cas Stark]

Arya's chapters of the FM must be carefully read.

The whole idea of "killers for huge sums of money - money grabbers" is wrong. The only source for that really is LF. He inquired with them on a hit on someone and they asked such a high price (and money is all he cares for) that he said, "No thank you, I can buy 2 sellsword armies with that amount of money." Seems to me they didn't want to do the hit at all, and asked an outrageous sum so that LF would forget about it. For the outside world they are known as hired assassins who'll kill anyone as long as you pay the price for it. They want that image, but it isn't necessarily what they are. By asking for a ridiculous sum they make sure they don't have to do the hit without refusing the request. LF's shallow psychopathic mind can't fathom there might be something else at play.

LF's "god forbid what they ask for a princess!" line is negated by Jaqen's actions: Arya throws an axe at the burning cage (that is all she effectively does, albeit at her own life's risk). Jaqen still has to free himself and the two others out of the burning cage himself. And yet he offers her "3 names" (any names), and he even insists with Arya for the third name to be King Joffrey. So basically, Jaqen is very eager even to kill a king for the price of an axe thrown within seizing range. And what was the price for Balon. Obviously a dragon egg, and exactly in the way Euron told it - he had to chuck the dragon egg overboard. That way a dragon egg ends up at the botom of the ocean where it is unlikely it will ever hatch. Dragons were the beasts Valyria used to enslave people. The FM were enemies of the dragonlords (hte slave masters) and might even have caused the doom.

The kindly man plays with words with Arya. He tells her they kill good people as well as bad people. This is true, but it should not be taken to mean they assassinate just anyone as long as the price is paid. The "good" people we see die with the help of the FM are in fact those who pray for death and drink from the pool. Assisted suicide was the primary function of the FM. The first FM first started to kill to help the slaves in the Valyrian mines out of the misery when they prayed for it. Their secondary function is answering the murder prayers if the price is paid. But whose murder will be prayed for? The masters, the conman, the abusers. After only assisting in suicide with the slaves, the first FM ends up hearing the prayer for a slave master to be killed in return for all the slave owns. He kills the master and the slave must serve the Many Faced God after that (he offered all he had, and his life was all he had) and that slave became the second FM. They grew from there. So, basically, the downtrodden are assisted to die peacefully, the abusive masters are murdered. That is their origin. Now why the hell would that have altered? So, when the kindly man says they kill good and bad people, he's being deceptive on how differently they kill the good and the bad.

All the targets we know about who have been assassinated were morally reprehensive people, masters, who were abusive. Balon wants to install the old ways again of the iron price, of salt wifes, of reaving (reaving is as much forbidden in Braavos as slavery, and the FM were probably at least part of the founders of Braavos, as Braavos original people were runaway slaves). The first two Jaqen kills were child beaters and a gang rapist. The insurance man was a conman who cheated a ship captain or small ship owner out of their money and made their widows and children destitute. And I even suspect the abusive father of the ugly girl was murdered by FM as well even though the ugly girl didn't pray for his death. The Waif's stepmother tried to poison her in order to get rid of the heir.

They don't punish Arya for killing Dareon at all. She actually gets rewarded with the first test and training in order to become an acolyte (we know the blinding stuff is a test and form of training, because initially there's another acolyte going through the exact same thing), instead of a mere servant and then after that gets her first hit assignment.

The kindly man says "It's not for you to judge." Notice he says 'you', not 'us'. A starting acolyte of course should not be making the decisions for the FM. Her sole concern ought to be "I do my job well." But it doesn't mean that the higher priests don't pick their targets and don't judge them. She asks whether the insurance man is a bad man. The kindly man answers "There's good and bad in everyone." Sure, the insurance conman might have a pet cat he's nice to for all we know, but he sure made families destitute, lose their homes, their income, might even have resulted in the death of disease while begging on the streets.

The kindly man assures Arya that both the ugly girl and the abusive father are dead. She asks whether the FM killed the father. He sidesteps the question with two indirect answers. First he says the ugly girl didn't pray for the father's death. But that's not really an answer. Then she asks how he died. The kindly man answers "like all men must die", implying either accident, illness, old age, whatever... but he immediately also continues the sentence with "like a certain man [Arya's target] will die tomorrow." The insurance man will die by the hand of an acolyte of the FM (Arya and poison). Hence, the abusive father was murdered by the FM too, and more importantly... without someone praying for his death. I suspect they use the removal of the face process to find out why that person came to the house with the will to die, and actually decide wether a person deserves to die for the harm they caused, regardless whether it was prayed for or not... the price is already paid for - the victim gave up their life.

So, no, I don't think Arya will be in much trouble for killing Raff the Sweetling. It's even possible that the murder fits into her mission. The FM and the Iron Bank and the Sealord tend to be three main entities of Braavos - justice, finance and politics. The Iron Bank and the Sealord would want Cersei's mission to fail. But just like the FM won't outright refuse a request but instead ask such a ridiculous high price that the inquirer like LF says "fuck that," the IB and the Sealord won't say "no" to the KL mission. But they can use a scandal for the mission to be aborted from KL pov, or provide the IB and Sealord with a scandal to say "no" to KL. As for Arya, it will seem as if she's punished for it, but like with Blind Beth, it will just be a new phase of her training.

Maybe. But, they can't approve of her killing whomever she wants to for revenge, since this against their entire schtick of it not being personal, of not killing people you know. You have a point that it could be argued that so far everyone they've killed is a 'bad actor' in some degree or other, we don't see them killing Joe Smith because his business partner wants him out of the way or his wife wants his money and she splits it with the FM.

We also don't really know what is the deal with Jaqen. Is he rogue, partially rogue or what. Why did he give Arya the coin? Did he really see the promise in her of an assassin? or have a soft spot for her or some other reason? The kindly man tells her that very, very few FM are women, let alone children...that puts Jaqen's actions as being even more out of the ordinary.

We don't know why he was in the black cells, if he was there by design or accident. We can be fairly certain he went to Oldtown and infiltrated the Citadel so his back on point with his mission. But, did he have two missions or one? He could have even been the FM who killed Balon, I think, not sure if the timing works on that.

All of this training about subsuming your identity isnt' only for show, so at some point, despite her many talents, Arya's inability to subsume Arya Stark and to put aside her personal hit list is going to cost her something with the FM. Will they kill her? Maybe, since they think death is a gift anyway, why not?

[aryagonnakill#2]

^In my opinion, if Arya can lie convincingly to the kindly faced man that she did not kill him, she will not get in trouble, just as she was able to lie to him at the end of Dance by finally saying she was no one.

[Bironic]

I thinkt that the three deaths Jaqen owns Arya are more a red god thing than a FM thing. I mean Jaqen isn't really Jaqen: He is no one who poses as Jaqen. And Jaqen was a red god follower, so it is in line with the red faith to give three random deaths. Not necessarily that every other FM(who perhaps impersonates a septon or a merchant) would have done the same.

@ Cas Stark: The FM in Oldtown was Jaqen, while the one who killed Balon was most likely some other guy. Balon was killed in late ASOS and Jaqen arrived in Oldtown in the prologue of AFFC. I mean GRRM travel time is a bit shaky sometimes, but this voyage would be very fast indeed. Also we don't know when Jaqen could have met Euron or communicated with the FM in Braavos to get the order to kill Balon.

PS: I like your signature. Did he really say that?

@sweetsunray: Interesting notion about taking Euron's statement how he lost his Dragon Egg literally. Never thought about that. Still I'm inclined to believe that they have this Dragon Egg somewhere in the cellars of the House of Black and White. I mean they are trying to gain knowledge about dragons, (jaqen in oldtwon etc). They will not gain that by throwing items overboard.

I like your idea that LF contacted the FM before and thinks to know what their price for a target. Who was this target? My first idea is Jon Arryn, before he took the Lysa Approach.

[Cas Stark]

I thinkt that the three deaths Jaqen owns Arya are more a red god thing than a FM thing. I mean Jaqen isn't really Jaqen: He is no one who poses as Jaqen. And Jaqen was a red god follower, so it is in line with the red faith to give three random deaths. Not necessarily that every other FM(who perhaps impersonates a septon or a merchant) would have done the same.

@ Cas Stark: The FM in Oldtown was Jaqen, while the one who killed Balon was most likely some other guy. Balon was killed in late ASOS and Jaqen arrived in Oldtown in the prologue of AFFC. I mean GRRM travel time is a bit shaky sometimes, but this voyage would be very fast indeed. Also we don't know when Jaqen could have met Euron or communicated with the FM in Braavos to get the order to kill Balon.

PS: I like your signature. Did he really say that?

@sweetsunray: Interesting notion about taking Euron's statement how he lost his Dragon Egg literally. Never thought about that. Still I'm inclined to believe that they have this Dragon Egg somewhere in the cellars of the House of Black and White. I mean they are trying to gain knowledge about dragons, (jaqen in oldtwon etc). They will not gain that by throwing items overboard.

I like your idea that LF contacted the FM before and thinks to know what their price for a target. Who was this target? My first idea is Jon Arryn, before he took the Lysa Approach.

We think that--jaqen is another face, which the show would seem to confirm-but we don't know for sure that this isn't his true face, he's got a true face after all, just like Arya. It probably isn't his true face, but we don't know that for certain. If it's a 'red god' thing, and not a GRRM continuity thing, then that is Jaqen going off his FM script, isn't it? He's giving her 3 kills and she didn't really sacrifice anything per the FM code...so it's back to his he rogue, or partly or something else. I agree it's Jaqen in Oldtown but some people are sticklers, and will refuse to admit that is obvious, LOL.

Yeah, I very much doubt Euron is quite mad enough to have thrown a dragon egg over board.

Yes, Benioff said that.

[sweetsunray]

Jaqen's "red god" statement. It's a red herring. At the House of the Black and White we learn that Rh'llor is one of the many faces of the god of death (Many Faced God). Why did he use the "red god"? Because Jaqen, Rorge and Biter would have burned alive if she had not thrown the axe towards the cage. So, Arya saved 3 lives from dying (and from the Many Faced God), and in that particular situation from the "Red God" version of the Many Faced God. This is imo why Jaqen refers to the "Red God" needs his due - 3 names to be killed. But later he will say "The gods won't be mocked" and things like that. So, I don't think the FM who at some point goes by the name of Jaqen is a follower of Rh'llor, but rather refers to Rh'llor because it would have been Rh'llor who would have gotten 3 people burned alive otherwise. That he is not a follower actually is reflected by the fact that none of those he kills for Arya actually die by being burned alive. One falls, the other is attacked by his own dog, and the rest stabbed and burned by hot Weasel soup.

IMO GRRM used this to make us (and Arya) think that the FM follow Rh'llor, not long before Arya gets to meet the BwB who are followers of Rh'llor. But it was actually a false hint. Not a lie. Not rogue. Just smartly done and deceptive.

The reason why I think Euron's story about the egg being thrown overboard needs to be taken literal is because of the way Euron says it. The FM would require him to sacrifice something he would really want (a dragon). Sure they could have asked him to give it to them. But they sure as hell are never going to sell it (because then some Targ may birth a new dragon from it, gods forbid), nor would they hatch one themselves. Psychopathic, narcissistic types like Euron may be pathological liars... the best lies always have a kernel of truth in it. Now, think on how Euron tells the story of the egg being thrown overboard. He's telling it like a boast, as if he couldn't have cared less about it. And yet, why tell it, if you never cared for the egg? It's the boasting attitude that reveals why he mentions it. Turn the boast 180° around (with spaths like Euron and LF, you'll find the lie by turning it 180°): he probably cursed the FM for asking him to throw a dragon's egg to the bottom of the ocean; it hurt and he thought it a complete waste of the egg. But he won't ever admit that. So, instead he twists it around and makes a boast of it. And the FM would have nicely packaged it as a sacrifice by Euron to his drowned god (who is one of the faces of the Many Faced God)

The FM don't want to find out how to make a dragon. They're interested in preventing dragons from being born and destroying them. Chucking eggs to the bottom of the ocean is one way of preventing a dragon ever being born from it.

[Nevets]

I think GRRM is paving the way for Arya's imminent departure from the FM. Not only has she shown an inability to become "no-one", but she is also being impulsive, disobedient and reckless.

Raff's murder is nothing like that of Dareon. Dareon was a nobody that Arya killed carefully, leaving no evidence behind. Raff is the bodyguard to a foreign envoy. That makes his apparent murder a big deal. And Arya was sloppy and left a trail a mile wide leading to, among other things, the theater troupe operated by Izembaro who is FM or a close associate. I don't think this will please them.

They may give her another activity, but I think things will come to a head pretty soon. Storywise, I think that her stay with the FM is designed to give her a chance to rest and learn a few useful skills. Her real story, however, is in Westeros.

I think Needle will play a role in her departure. (I'm quite certain they know she kept it) They will order her to destroy it, and she will be unable to do so. They will then allow her to leave, but require her to perform a mission, either now or in the future. "There may come a day when we call upon you to assist us. Give us what we ask, and you debt will be paid."

One current mission that could be interesting would be to show an operative her escape route from the Red Keep. They know she got out somehow, and may suspect she knows a secret route. This would put her in King's Landing, where most of the remaining names on her list are. Although I don't see her seeking them out, she could easily run into one of them.

What I would like to see is that she runs into, say, Ser Ilyn, and tries to kill him. Being a cautious man, he sees it coming and beats the crap out of her, forcing her to run for her life. She might decide that the revenge thing isn't such a good idea, after all. Plus she's in danger of getting overconfident.

I agree with sweetsunray that she doesn't know any secrets that they would worry about. Most of what she knows is either widely known or innocuous. The only possible secret is the face library, and I suspect that those who are in a position to know about such things already do. I also think it could be a facade to account for the fact that the FM can change their appearance. It provides an explanation, just not the real one, since it is obvious that high-level operatives have easier and more effective methods at their disposal. As for killing people, she only learned about poisons, and probably knows no more than many maesters do.

[sweetsunray]

She might get away with it. We don't know what the mission is with Izembaro for her. The "scandal" may actually benefit the Iron Bank, Braavos and thus by extension the FM. Or it could truly be a mess up. But even then: true, she's not to kill anyone she "knows", but she could argue that the Many Faced God literally landed him in her lap, as a reward for her services to him.

Remember what happens when she first enters the House of Black and White. The door opens, she goes inside and she finds herself in the hall with the gods and the pool. There's a cup at the rim. And a young man hanging at the pool.

Now, recollect for a moment that somebody opened the door for her, but they have not yet welcomed her. This means they're watching her.

There are 3 options for her:

1) she can take the cup and drink from it herself to lavish her thirst (she does not know what's in it), thereby committing suicide.

2) She can try to talk to the young man, inspect him, discover his wound and cry for help, revealing herself to be a "saviour" type.

3) or she can give him a cup of "water" (aka poison) and unwittingly present him the gift.

Now the FM are religious. They believe that the Many Face God somehow makes his preferences known, that some things would please him.

There's no doubt in my mind that any of her 3 choices would be regarded as sign by the ones who opened the door for her and allowed her to wonder towards the pool without any intervention. Signs are usually believed the most if the situation is as serendipituous as it can be. The more events unfold by chance and without being conscious of it, the more chance there is for it to be regarded as "divine". (All the Tarot reading and stuff like that are often so powerful for someone who consults it, exactly because it's almost nothing but pure serendipity and chance)

Arya does the third option, without even considering the other two. She gives the bravo the gift of poison. It's only when she's confronted with his wound and the effect of her deed that first the waif comes to her, and then the kindly man.

The moment she did option 3, especially as a girl and as young as she is, the waif and the KM would have thought, "The Gifting is strong in her." She basically enters the temple, and immediately kills someone, someone who prayed for it.

[Cas Stark]

Death is her gift. Buffy wants her line back, LOL.

I don't think her killing Raff is going to benefit the IB? It looks bad for Braavos that a Westerosi traveling with a high ranking official was murdered by some member of an actor's troupe. And it's going to look even worse when they won't be able to find the murderer.

So, I think this going to be bad for Arya, because she blew her cover in a big way, she's seen leaving with Raff, it's obvious she would be the number 1 suspect. I'd like this to be the final rift with the FM that gets her back to Westeros, but given that it seems Dany spends most of the book still in Essos I'm not sure what will happen with Arya.