The Targaryen Madness Factor/Targaryen Double Standard

[Kyoshi]

Those Unsullied were regulars of that wineseller's shop and the Harpy killings were going on for a long time. Therefore, the wineseller should be either an utter moron to poison his regular customers in his shop and not expect to be interrogated/tortured for murder; or the most reasonable explanation is that he had nothing to do with those murders.

That wineseller was also Meereenese. Utter stupidity isn't all that far-fetched with these people. These are the same people who:

1. Nailed children to posts to taunt someone with an army of Unsullied and Stormcrows and Second Sons and three dragons.

Continued the Harpy killings even after Dany seized children hostages possibly related to them.

I think we can agree these are not the most strategic people one can find in Essos. They can be morons, that's the point.

In any case, Dany has no excuse in having the daughters of the suspect interrogated. Those girls were chosen for torture not because they were suspected of murder but because they were the daughters of the suspect and Dany agreed that torturing them in front of their father would break the man. And Dany didnot even care whether those girls were children or not.

We also don't know if the girls were children or not. I agree that it is completely abhorrent to use torture as an interrogation mechanism; however, Dany did show remorse when the deed was done. She even showed signs of having no hope in the method; putting her leagues ahead of other in-universe characters who employ torturers, Stannis being an example, Tywin being another [Gregor Clegane]. Dany denies the Shavepate further opportunity in this, we have her POV [which I know you will claim to be biased but who has the time to get into all that, after all, we have had this dance oh so many times].

In Thorne's case, everybody is disgusted by the man. If he was not a capable fighter, I bet somebody could have already stabbed him in the belly or cut his throat for being a dick long before Jon's arrival. Thorne is the one who is pushing Jon's buttons and Jon reacted to him and him only. He didnot go Fire and Blood on a bunch of people of uncertain guilt as in Dany's case. And as I showed above, a person with a clear mind should be able to deduce that the wineseller was most probably innocent.

I don't think everybody is disgusted by the man. Unless they had a meeting and came to a consensus, I don't think everybody was disgusted by the man. I also find issue with your post because it also implies that no one is sympathetic of the Stalwart Shield incident, therefore rendering the subsequent happenings unsympathetic. And perhaps that's the problem--readers simply dismiss the Essos arc, prematurely labeling it tedious and unimportant, investing nothing of themselves in the characters and their plights--this is the problem we face as a fandom. The Harpy and the people who poisoned SS were pushing Dany's buttons. I honestly don't understand how you can fail to see that. Dany's and Jon's situations are very similar.

Dany did not go all Fire and Blood. It's very troubling to me that this particular fandom is willing to grey-fy everything in this series when it is convenient, yet when we despise the character then everything is black, all black and nothing else. When asked, the author stated that the fire component of the song of ice and fire is love, passion, all that stuff [paraphrased]. I struggle to understand how we have misconstrued it to mean "yeah, bitchez, I am going to fuck everything up!" It baffles me every time I see Fire and Blood equated to ultimate madness and evil and all things bad.

And if as abhorrent as many claim, it would be wise to recall that Jon claims half of his heritage from this despicable Fire and Blood nonsense. What happens when he discovers this?

Finally, I have postulated that Dany's mind was not a clear one, her decision was purely visceral. Hence my statement that the incident was a sympathetic one.

[barristan-b]

I know GRRM doesn't necessarily go with a conventional or predictable approach but I just can't envision an inbred dragon rider conquering Westeros.

I don't actually hate her character but I don't see her there in the end for some reason.

[SeanF]

...having a person's innocent children tortured was definitely 'not' acceptable in Dany's milieu. Having the power to torture or kill people doesn't mean it's socially acceptable.Jon's actions are understandable because Thorne is an asshole who has made his life a living hell. That doesn't mean his actions are acceptable, but the reader at least understands why Jon is angry at Thorne. It wasn't shocking that Jon did it, nor was it shocking that Thorne decided to have a go at Jon. I felt both were at fault and both deserved to be punished for it.I think a reader is a lot less understanding of Dany's decision to torture an innocent person in order to make her father confess to something he may not have even done. I admittedly was shocked when she did it. There's a completely innocent person who will suffer, and I don't find that understandable at all. Especially for a ruler who wants to abolish slavery.

Using torture to extract a confession probably *is* socially acceptable to most lords and Kings in this world. A lot of them do it. What would not be socially acceptable (outside Slavers Bay) is using torture for fun.

That's not to say that the reader should be at all happy with it, either in general, or in this particular case.

[Kyoshi]

1. No guilt was established, either.

2. The order to torture the wineseller's daughters came when Dany heard that the harpist had been killed. So the outrage over Stalwart Shield's death is beside the point; it wasn't Stalwart Shield's death that compelled Dany to have the daughters tortured. And it wasn't a matter of, "Torture them so I can find out who killed the harpist," it was, "The harpist was killed and now I'm mad so I'm going to allow these people to be tortured even though I reasonably think that they don't have any intel."

3. Jon was stupid to go after Thorne, but Thorne also deliberately goaded him into it and as such I think it's fair to say that they were both responsible for their behavior there: Thorne for goading and harassing Jon and Jon for physically attacking Thorne. Meanwhile, the wineseller's daughters' only "crime" was being in the vicinity of where people had last been seen before they were killed. To imply that they "asked for it" to the same degree that Thorne did is kind of absurd. Not to mention the fact that 1. Jon did the deed himself as opposed to having a lackey do it and 2. Jon was punished for what he did, because it was wrong, while Dany can order people tortured with impunity.

This may come as a surprise to some people, but torture is inherently wrong and Dany doesn't get a pass on it simply because she's Dany.

1. Abhorrent as it, the torture was meant to establish the guilt. It's possibly we will continue this point in circles.

2. I mixed up the incidents, that's my bad. However, I don't agree with your reasoning. The main reason being that you assume Dany's motives in the most reductive way. The points you make render me speechless.

3. No one is saying the wineseller's or his daughters had it coming. You're the only one positing that, as a result of your flawed analogy. Jon doing the deed himself does not make him anymore honourable. All it does is establish Jon's often overlooked hotheadedness. I honestly don't see how the torture would have been anymore acceptable if Dany had been the one conducting it. Finally, punishment does not necessarily establish remorse, which I would argue is the more important "redeeming" act after a questionable action. Dany clearly shows signs of remorse. And as I said in my response to AntZ, she denies the Shavepate the opportunity to repeat more torture sessions.

[Kyoshi]

Using torture to extract a confession probably *is* socially acceptable to most lords and Kings in this world. A lot of them do it. What would not be socially acceptable (outside Slavers Bay) is using torture for fun.

That's not to say that the reader should be at all happy with it, either in general, or in this particular case.

Agreed.

[Nictarion]

Jon was punished for what he did, because it was wrong, while Dany can order people tortured with impunity.

What a harsh punishment it was too. Jon's wrist must have been sore for about two minutes from the slap it received. Anyone else would have got the Janos Slynt treatment.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Using torture to extract a confession probably *is* socially acceptable to most lords and Kings in this world. A lot of them do it. What would not be socially acceptable (outside Slavers Bay) is using torture for fun.

That's not to say that the reader should be at all happy with it, either in general, or in this particular case.

The torture wasn't even to extract a confession; it was spiteful punishment. She already admitted that they probably knew nothing, then found out the harpist had been killed and that's when she said no, go ahead and torture them. It's a very clear point of demarcation and her thought process is explicit. It was already clear, even from her perspective, that the intel they had, if they had any, wouldn't be of much help. She ordered it out of anger.

It'd be disgusting enough if she did do it to extract a confession. The fact that she does it in essentially a frustrated tantrum makes it utterly indefensible.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But of course... I mean, evil bastard Thorne insulted Ned Stark's memory. I mean, HE INSULTED HIM. WITH WORDS. And called Jon a bastard. WOW... those are Tywin/Ramsay/Roose/Maegor levels of cruelty. Didn't he know he was actually the son of Rhaegar and a untouchable prince? There are 109 threads about it, what's his problem??! Doesn't he read??! Jon was completely right on letting HIS EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS making him go and try to kill. Because when you're insulted, or your father is insulted, then YOUR EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS are ok. to surface. Specially when your dad is dead.

On the other hand, the slavers we're only trying to make Dany understand a peaceful message she didn't want to hear, because she's crazy, stupid and stubborn: "Look, girl. We don't care about your lizards, and we don't care you're some kind of mother. You want children? Well, here you have children, mom dearest. Nailed to a pole". How Dany dared to let HER EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS to go after them and punish them for tainting and mock her, and murder 163 innocent children? Can't bitch have some self-control? it's not like they INSULTED her father WITH WORDS or called her a bastard. Of course, not! she's a woman! always having EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS!! Like, when she wants to punish the Usurper's dogs, who actually rebelled against her father, killed him and got her and her brother exiled despite they were children... she's so wrong for wanting them dead, unlike Jon, who wanted to killed Thorned for INSULT Ned. Perhaps if Robert's Rebellion had been just Ned, Robert and Arryn screaming loudly at Aerys, calling him traitor and calling her, Viserys and Rhaegar bastards, then she would be ok having those FEELINGS.

Because calling your father a traitor and bullying you is definitely worst than killing him or crucifying 163 kids to make fun of you.

Obviously.

[Kyoshi]

The torture wasn't even to extract a confession; it was spiteful punishment. She already admitted that they probably knew nothing, then found out the harpist had been killed and that's when she said no, go ahead and torture them. It's a very clear point of demarcation and her thought process is explicit. It was already clear, even from her perspective, that the intel they had, if they had any, wouldn't be of much help. She ordered it out of anger.

It'd be disgusting enough if she did do it to extract a confession. The fact that she does it in essentially a frustrated tantrum makes it utterly indefensible.

Here is the extract from the incident in question:

***Nine [the number of people killed by the Harpy's Sons that night]. The word was a dagger in her heart. Every night the shadow war was waged anew beneath the stepped pyramids of Meereen. Every morn the sun rose upon fresh corpses, with harpies drawn in blood on the bricks beside them. Any freedman who became too prosperous or too outspoken was marked for death. Nine in one night, though … That frightened her. “Tell me.”

Grey Worm answered. “Your servants were set upon as they walked the bricks of Meereen to keep Your Grace’s peace. All were well armed, with spears and shields and short swords. Two by two they walked, and two by two they died. Your servants Black Fist and Cetherys were slain by cross-bow bolts in Mazdhan’s Maze. Your servants Mossador and Duran were crushed by falling stones beneath the river wall. Your servants Eladon Goldenhair and Loyal Spear were poisoned at a wineshop where they were accustomed to stop each night upon their rounds.”

Mossador. Dany made a fist. Missandei and her brothers had been taken from their home on Naath by raiders from the Basilisk Isles and sold into slavery in Astapor. Young as she was, Missandei had shown such a gift for tongues that the Good Masters had made a scribe of her. Mossador and Marselen had not been so fortunate. They had been gelded and made into Unsullied. “Have any of the murderers been captured?”

“Your servants have arrested the owner of the wineshop and his daughters. They plead their ignorance and beg for mercy.”

They all plead ignorance and beg for mercy. “Give them to the Shavepate. Skahaz, keep each apart from the others and put them to the question.”

“It will be done, Your Worship. Would you have me question them sweetly, or sharply?”

“Sweetly, to begin. Hear what tales they tell and what names they give you. It may be they had no part in this.” She hesitated. “Nine, the noble Reznak said. Who else?”

“Three freedmen, murdered in their homes,” the Shavepate said. “A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before they killed her.”

The queen flinched. Rylona Rhee had played the harp as sweetly as the Maiden. When she had been a slave in Yunkai, she had played for every highborn family in the city. In Meereen she had become a leader amongst the Yunkish freedmen, their voice in Dany’s councils. “We have no captives but this

wineseller?”

“None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon.”

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon’s mercy. “Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply.”

“I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him.”

“Do as you think best, but bring me names.” Her fury was a fire in her belly. “I will have no more Unsullied slaughtered. Grey Worm, pull your men back to their barracks. Henceforth let them guard my walls and gates and person. From this day, it shall be for Meereenese to keep the peace in Meereen. Skahaz, make me a new watch, made up in equal parts of shavepates and freedmen.”***

You've been selectively reading, Apple.

The order was always to question them. She didn't order it after the death of the harpist was mentioned. The order was always there, and it was meant to yield names, something you completely ignore in your posts. I also highlighted the manner of death of the freed people and Unsullied to show that her stance, while abhorrent, was a completely understandable one [there was emotion involved, just as there was in the case of Jon and Thorne the Evil]. It is astounding how blind you choose to be just so you can condemn her.

[Kyoshi]

But of course... I mean, evil bastard Thorne insulted Ned Stark's memory. I mean, HE INSULTED HIM. WITH WORDS. And called Jon a bastard. WOW... those are Tywin/Ramsay/Roose/Maegor levels of cruelty. Didn't he know he was actually the son of Rhaegar and a untouchable prince? There are 109 threads about it, what's his problem??! Doesn't he read??! Jon was completely right on letting HIS EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS making him go and try to kill. Because when you're insulted, or your father is insulted, then YOUR EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS are ok. to surface. Specially when your dad is dead.

On the other hand, the slavers we're only trying to make Dany understand a peaceful message she didn't want to hear, because she's crazy, stupid and stubborn: "Look, girl. We don't care about your lizards, and we don't care you're some kind of mother. You want children? Well, here you have children, mom dearest. Nailed to a pole". How Dany dared to let HER EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS to go after them and punish them for tainting and mock her, and murder 163 innocent children? Can't bitch have some self-control? it's not like they INSULTED her father WITH WORDS or called her a bastard. Of course, not! she's a woman! always having EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS!! Like, when she wants to punish the Usurper's dogs, who actually rebelled against her father, killed him and got her and her brother exiled despite they were children... she's so wrong for wanting them dead, unlike Jon, who wanted to killed Thorned for INSULT Ned. Perhaps if Robert's Rebellion had been just Ned, Robert and Arryn screaming loudly at Aerys, calling him traitor and calling her, Viserys and Rhaegar bastards, then she would be ok having those FEELINGS.

Because calling your father a traitor and bullying you is definitely worst than killing him or crucifying 163 kids to make fun of you.

Obviously.

:bowdown: Thank you!

[SeanF]

3. No one is saying the wineseller's or his daughters had it coming. You're the only one positing that, as a result of your flawed analogy. Jon doing the deed himself does not make him anymore honourable. All it does is establish Jon's often overlooked hotheadedness. I honestly don't see how the torture would have been anymore acceptable if Dany had been the one conducting it. Finally, punishment does not necessarily establish remorse, which I would argue is the more important "redeeming" act after a questionable action. Dany clearly shows signs of remorse. And as I said in my response to AntZ, she denies the Shavepate the opportunity to repeat more torture sessions.

Dany concluded that the confessions being produced by the Shavepate were worthless. That was after many more people than the wine seller's daughters had been put to the question. She never thought about the daughters after she gave her order.

The problem with leaving it to the Shavepate to conduct the torture is that he seems to enjoy it. He enjoys the fighting pits as much as anyone. He advises Dany to rip out tongues and kill children. When Barristan arrests Hizdahr, the Shavepate looks forward to having his fun with him (which Barristan prevents). He is renowned as a torturer in Meereen.

Had Dany been present, she could at least have imposed limits on what the Shavepate and his goons were doing.

[Kyoshi]

Dany concluded that the confessions being produced by the Shavepate were worthless. That was after many more people than the wine seller's daughters had been put to the question. She never thought about the daughters after she gave her order.

The problem with leaving it to the Shavepate to conduct the torture is that he seems to enjoy it. He enjoys the fighting pits as much as anyone. He advises Dany to rip out tongues and kill children. When Barristan arrests Hizdahr, the Shavepate looks forward to having his fun with him (which Barristan prevents). He is renowned as a torturer in Meereen.

Had Dany been present, she could at least have imposed limits on what the Shavepate and his goons were doing.

And those that were questioned after the wineseller's daughters are said to have been the Sons of the Harpy:

***“If there is a Harpy.” Skahaz was convinced that somewhere in Meereen the Sons of the Harpy had a highborn overlord, a secret general commanding an army of shadows. Dany did not share his belief. The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. It would have been pleasant to think that all the deaths were the work of a single enemy who might be caught and killed, but Dany suspected that the truth was otherwise. My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.”

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”

“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”

“Your Radiance—”

“No, I said.”***

One could make the argument that her presence would have resulted in limitations on the Shavepate's method; however, one rarely makes that argument. When mentioned, her presence is something meant to show how "honourable" she is as a ruler. Like Apple said, at least Jon had the guts to do the deed himself and not send a lackey. You on the other hand, make a good point, and in that case I accept that her presence was necessary.

[Mithras]

That wineseller was also Meereenese. Utter stupidity isn't all that far-fetched with these people. These are the same people who:

1. Nailed children to posts to taunt someone with an army of Unsullied and Stormcrows and Second Sons and three dragons.

Continued the Harpy killings even after Dany seized children hostages possibly related to them.

I think we can agree these are not the most strategic people one can find in Essos. They can be morons, that's the point.

None of which absolves Dany of her lack of going through the rationalization I proposed in my post.

We also don't know if the girls were children or not. I agree that it is completely abhorrent to use torture as an interrogation mechanism; however, Dany did show remorse when the deed was done. She even showed signs of having no hope in the method; putting her leagues ahead of other in-universe characters who employ torturers, Stannis being an example, Tywin being another [Gregor Clegane]. Dany denies the Shavepate further opportunity in this, we have her POV [which I know you will claim to be biased but who has the time to get into all that, after all, we have had this dance oh so many times].

The reason we do not know is because Dany never cared to ask. Does it really make it any more sympathethic to you that it is left ambigious whether they were children or not? For me, even if the daughters turn out to be adults, it does not make any difference. Dany gave the order (apparently) without thinking that they might be children.

I am also not sure whether Dany denies Shavepate further torture because she believes that the method is useless and she shows remorse or she just cannot kill the names brought to her by the Shavepate, which was exactly her command to him (just bring me names).

“Your Grace. Skahaz awaits your pleasure.”

“Send him up.”

The Shavepate was accompanied by two of his Brazen Beasts. One wore a hawk mask, the other the likeness of a jackal. Only their eyes could be seen behind the brass. “Your Radiance, Hizdahr was seen to enter the pyramid of Zhak last evening. He did not depart until well after dark.”

“How many pyramids has he visited?” asked Dany.

“Eleven.”

“And how long since the last murder?”

“Six-and-twenty days.” The Shavepate’s eyes brimmed with fury. It had been his notion to have the Brazen Beasts follow her betrothed and take note of all his actions.

“So far Hizdahr has made good on his promises.”

“How? The Sons of the Harpy have put down their knives, but why? Because the noble Hizdahr asked sweetly? He is one of them, I tell you. That’s why they obey him. He may well be the Harpy.”

“If there is a Harpy.” Skahaz was convinced that somewhere in Meereen the Sons of the Harpy had a highborn overlord, a secret general commanding an army of shadows. Dany did not share his belief. The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. It would have been pleasant to think that all the deaths were the work of a single enemy who might be caught and killed, but Dany suspected that the truth was otherwise. My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.”

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”

“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”

“Your Radiance—”

“No, I said.”

The Shavepate’s scowl turned his ugly face even uglier. “A mistake. The Great Master Hizdahr plays Your Worship for a fool. Do you want a serpent in your bed?”

I want Daario in my bed, but I sent him away for the sake of you and yours. “You may continue to watch Hizdahr zo Loraq, but no harm is to come to him. Is that understood?”

“I am not deaf, Magnificence. I will obey.”

The bolded parts are where Dany acts like an utter moron.

I don't think everybody is disgusted by the man. Unless they had a meeting and came to a consensus, I don't think everybody was disgusted by the man. I also find issue with your post because it also implies that no one is sympathetic of the Stalwart Shield incident, therefore rendering the subsequent happenings unsympathetic. And perhaps that's the problem--readers simply dismiss the Essos arc, prematurely labeling it tedious and unimportant, investing nothing of themselves in the characters and their plights--this is the problem we face as a fandom. The Harpy and the people who poisoned SS were pushing Dany's buttons. I honestly don't understand how you can fail to see that. Dany's and Jon's situations are very similar.

Let us see. The recruits despise him. Mormont can't stand him. Tyrion immediately hates him. His name was never put forward as a candidate for LC because the thought of that was just silly.

In short, Thorne is 100% guilty of being an asshole. He taunted Jon so that he attacks him and gets into trouble, which he accomplished.

I understand why Dany needed to blow off steam but you simply do not understand that the wineseller was not the right guy to be subjected to that steam. And his daughters? That was perhaps the lowest and most indefensible point in Dany's arc yet I see some people like you and Suzanna trying to get around it.

In addition, as Apple pointed, Jon faced the consequences of his foolish action but there is no such institution for Dany as the absolute monarch. Everybody knew that Thorne deserved it but Mormont thought that Jon was better than falling into that mistake. He was going to punish him but he was not going to behead him for what he did. That is just silly. If that was the case, Mormont would not send Thorne to KL to prevent him spilling more filth and causing trouble.

Dany did not go all Fire and Blood. It's very troubling to me that this particular fandom is willing to grey-fy everything in this series when it is convenient, yet when we despise the character then everything is black, all black and nothing else. When asked, the author stated that the fire component of the song of ice and fire is love, passion, all that stuff [paraphrased]. I struggle to understand how we have misconstrued it to mean "yeah, bitchez, I am going to fuck everything up!" It baffles me every time I see Fire and Blood equated to ultimate madness and evil and all things bad.

You are right. She called it "dragon's mercy". That is even worse. We know the mercy of Roose and Ramsay, by which they mean no flaying (at least pre-mortem). Joffrey also claimed that he was merciful with Ned.

And if as abhorrent as many claim, it would be wise to recall that Jon claims half of his heritage from this despicable Fire and Blood nonsense. What happens when he discovers this?

Fire and Blood is not nonsense. The trick is to be able to switch between Maegor the Cruel and Jaehaerys the Concilliator whenever it is required. Aegon I was like that but in the context of ADwD and Dany's last chapter, she seems to be done with Jaehaerys and go fully Maegor IMO.

Jon already showed himself as a true heir of Jaehaerys I and after the big revelation and the betrayal of his friends, I expect him to drift to the Maegorish side of the scale a bit more.

Finally, I have postulated that Dany's mind was not a clear one, her decision was purely visceral. Hence my statement that the incident was a sympathetic one.

That is the same reason why I find it utterly unsympathetic and indefensible. What now? Are the folk supposed pray day and night nobody presses the buttons of their good gracious queen? Are they the "happy subjects" Dany wishes to have?

But of course... I mean, evil bastard Thorne insulted Ned Stark's memory. I mean, HE INSULTED HIM. WITH WORDS. And called Jon a bastard. WOW... those are Tywin/Ramsay/Roose/Maegor levels of cruelty. Didn't he know he was actually the son of Rhaegar and a untouchable prince? There are 109 threads about it, what's his problem??! Doesn't he read??! Jon was completely right on letting HIS EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS making him go and try to kill. Because when you're insulted, or your father is insulted, then YOUR EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS are ok. to surface. Specially when your dad is dead.

On the other hand, the slavers we're only trying to make Dany understand a peaceful message she didn't want to hear, because she's crazy, stupid and stubborn: "Look, girl. We don't care about your lizards, and we don't care you're some kind of mother. You want children? Well, here you have children, mom dearest. Nailed to a pole". How Dany dared to let HER EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS to go after them and punish them for tainting and mock her, and murder 163 innocent children? Can't bitch have some self-control? it's not like they INSULTED her father WITH WORDS or called her a bastard. Of course, not! she's a woman! always having EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS!! Like, when she wants to punish the Usurper's dogs, who actually rebelled against her father, killed him and got her and her brother exiled despite they were children... she's so wrong for wanting them dead, unlike Jon, who wanted to killed Thorned for INSULT Ned. Perhaps if Robert's Rebellion had been just Ned, Robert and Arryn screaming loudly at Aerys, calling him traitor and calling her, Viserys and Rhaegar bastards, then she would be ok having those FEELINGS.

Because calling your father a traitor and bullying you is definitely worst than killing him or crucifying 163 kids to make fun of you.

Obviously.

This is a very unfortunate post because we are not talking about only the emotional outbursts here. There is a very basic difference between an absolute monarch doing stupid things because of emotional outbursts and a random member of the NW being taunted by a proven asshole.

[Kyoshi]

None of which absolves Dany of her lack of going through the rationalization I proposed in my post.

Firstly, you didn't propose any kind of syllogism. As usual, you simply stated Dany to be stupid because "the wineseller was absolutely innocent". As usual, you stated opinions as facts. As usual, it all came down to Dany being stupid and irredeemable--a Herculean feat since you find characters like Stannis and Victarion to be redeemable. The was no rationalisation you proposed, only familiar vitirol.

The reason we do not know is because Dany never cared to ask. Does it really make it any more sympathethic to you that it is left ambigious whether they were children or not? For me, even if the daughters turn out to be adults, it does not make any difference. Dany gave the order (apparently) without thinking that they might be children.

The question isn't whether or not she allowed children to be tortured. As I understand it, the question was whether or not she was a torture enthusiast. Posters like you added the children aspect to make it more despicable. To me it doesn't matter, a person is a person regardless of their age, the torture is despicable either way. I was merely pointing out that your attempts to make it that much more disgusting were unsupported by the text.

I am also not sure whether Dany denies Shavepate further torture because she believes that the method is useless and she shows remorse or she just cannot kill the names brought to her by the Shavepate, which was exactly her command to him (just bring me names).

“Your Grace. Skahaz awaits your pleasure.”

“Send him up.”

The Shavepate was accompanied by two of his Brazen Beasts. One wore a hawk mask, the other the likeness of a jackal. Only their eyes could be seen behind the brass. “Your Radiance, Hizdahr was seen to enter the pyramid of Zhak last evening. He did not depart until well after dark.”

“How many pyramids has he visited?” asked Dany.

“Eleven.”

“And how long since the last murder?”

“Six-and-twenty days.” The Shavepate’s eyes brimmed with fury. It had been his notion to have the Brazen Beasts follow her betrothed and take note of all his actions.

“So far Hizdahr has made good on his promises.”

“How? The Sons of the Harpy have put down their knives, but why? Because the noble Hizdahr asked sweetly? He is one of them, I tell you. That’s why they obey him. He may well be the Harpy.”

“If there is a Harpy.” Skahaz was convinced that somewhere in Meereen the Sons of the Harpy had a highborn overlord, a secret general commanding an army of shadows. Dany did not share his belief. The Brazen Beasts had taken dozens of the Harpy’s Sons, and those who had survived their capture had yielded names when questioned sharply … too many names, it seemed to her. It would have been pleasant to think that all the deaths were the work of a single enemy who might be caught and killed, but Dany suspected that the truth was otherwise. My enemies are legion. “Hizdahr zo Loraq is a persuasive man with many friends. And he is wealthy. Perhaps he has bought this peace for us with gold, or convinced the other highborn that our marriage is in their best interests.”

“If he is not the Harpy, he knows him. I can find the truth of that easy enough. Give me your leave to put Hizdahr to the question, and I will bring you a confession.”

“No,” she said. “I do not trust these confessions. You’ve brought me too many of them, all of them worthless.”

“Your Radiance—”

“No, I said.”

The Shavepate’s scowl turned his ugly face even uglier. “A mistake. The Great Master Hizdahr plays Your Worship for a fool. Do you want a serpent in your bed?”

I want Daario in my bed, but I sent him away for the sake of you and yours. “You may continue to watch Hizdahr zo Loraq, but no harm is to come to him. Is that understood?”

“I am not deaf, Magnificence. I will obey.”

The bolded part was where Dany acts like an utter moron.

I am "shocked" that the only thing you took away from that passage was Dany's oh so obvious idiocy. I bolded another part for you, the one you so conveniently overlooked, where she tells the Shavepate "no more tortures"...in case you choose not to read it. I even made it read in case you miss it, as is often the case with any text supporting Dany's intelligence.

As to the part you bolded, it is once again a case of you stating opinion as fact. We do not yet know what sort of organisation the Sons of the Harpy is; as such, we cannot state with such (vitriol fueled) passion that anyone who comes to any sort of conclusion is "an utter moron." And behold, she even makes the smart observation that the validity of names given under torture is a questionable one! Oh my, Dany is smart? What a shock this is to me!

Let us see. The recruits despise him. Mormont can't stand him. Tyrion immediately hates him. His name was never put forward as a candidate for LC because the thought of that was just silly.

In short, Thorne is 100% guilty of being an asshole. He taunted Jon so that he attacks him and gets into trouble, which he accomplished.

I'm going to skip over this because I don't see the point in arguing Thorne's doucehbaggery and comparing it with the vile nature of the Sons of the Harpy and the absolutely vile ways in which they taunt Dany. Comparing Thorne to them seems, IMHO, so so so wrong. But since he dared taunt Saint Jon Snow, I suppose his crimes seem so so so unforgivable to you, as opposed to the killings of the freed people in Meereen. Yeah, no double standard there.

I understand why Dany needed to blow off steam but you simply do not understand that the wineseller was not the right guy to be subjected to that steam. And his daughters? That was perhaps the lowest and most indefensible point in Dany's arc yet I see some people like you and Suzanna trying to get around it.

In addition, as Apple pointed, Jon faced the consequences of his foolish action but there is no such institution for Dany as the absolute monarch. Everybody knew that Thorne deserved it but Mormont thought that Jon was better than falling into that mistake. He was going to punish him but he was not going to behead him for what he did. That is just silly. If that was the case, Mormont would not send Thorne to KL to prevent him spilling more filth and causing trouble.

You are right. She called it "dragon's mercy". That is even worse. We know the mercy of Roose and Ramsay, by which they mean no flaying (at least pre-mortem). Joffrey also claimed that he was merciful with Ned.

No. People like me and Suzanna are not trying to get around it. I am yet to encounter anyone who thinks the torture was justified. We are simly arguing that Dany's crimes are held to a completely different standard than any other character's. By people like you and Apple and many others. People who often cite the torture of the daughters as something to despise and the reason you dislike her with such astonishing passion, yet you turn around and defend Stannis and Victarion and other characters whose actions are just as questionable. At least here at Team Dany, we can admit that what she did was wrong. There is no justifying it, there can only be understanding of her motivations.

Fire and Blood is not nonsense. The trick is to be able to switch between Maegor the Cruel and Jaehaerys the Concilliator whenever it is required. Aegon I was like that but in the context of ADwD and Dany's last chapter, she seems to be done with Jaehaerys and go fully Maegor IMO.

Jon already showed himself as a true heir of Jaehaerys I and after the big revelation and the betrayal of his friends, I expect him to drift to the Maegorish side of the scale a bit more.

That is the same reason why I find it utterly unsympathetic and indefensible. What now? Are the folk supposed pray day and night nobody presses the buttons of their good gracious queen? Are they the "happy subjects" Dany wishes to have?

Fire and Blood is absolute nonsense because it has been reduced to mean something it doesn't mean. This fandom in particular has created a version so twisted and misconstrued that it comes as no surprise that the name Targaryen is often equated to "arrogant, misguided and delusional"...but only when convenient. You prove my point, AntZ, in the Tragrayens you like, like Saint Jon Snow, you choose to see the Fire and Blood stripped and watered and speckled with golden dust.

And I will as bold as stating that Danerys is right up there with the greatest Targaryens that ever walked Planetos. As you are fond of taking Tyrion's word as gospel and you idolise Aegon I, I will quote Tyrion in saying Daenerys Targaryen is no maid, however. She is the widow of a Dothraki khal, a mother of dragons and a sacker of cities, Aegon the Conqueror with teats.

And Dany frees slaves. I know it's not a cause you support given your thread on how this move was a particularly horrendous one, but she frees slaves. In my eyes, and in the eyes of many others (more importantly, the slaves) that is a great deed. One worthy of calling her a true heir of Jaehaerys I. Not just Saint Jon Snow.

This is a very unfortunate post because we are not talking about only the emotional outbursts here. There is a very basic difference between an absolute monarch doing stupid things because of emotional outbursts and a random member of the NW being taunted by a proven asshole.

Not as unfortunate as your frequent claims that one of Dany's "unattractive" qualities as a ruler is her emotional side. And your choice to ignore that her emotions are given as evidence of her madness, particularly in this thread.

[SeanF]

Stannis v Dany frequently comes up in these discussions.

I think it's clear that neither character is depicted as a monster. Stannis is "despite everything, a righteous man" (in the author's own words). But, he hands down some very harsh punishments in the names of his justice.

Dany is remarkably kind and generous to her servants and followers. She has a degree of empathy for the underdog that is very unusual among members of her class, whether in Westeros or Essos. But, she has an angry cruel streak, which comes out when her emotions are running high - as in this case.

I think that both Stannis and Dany are credible, as mostly just, but flawed, rulers as opposed to paragons of virtue.

Victarion, I think, is a good deal worse than either of them (again, in the author's own words "a dullard and a brut", or "thick as a stump.")

[Kyoshi]

Stannis v Dany frequently comes up in these discussions.

I think it's clear that neither character is depicted as a monster. Stannis is "despite everything, a righteous man" (in the author's own words). But, he hands down some very harsh punishments in the names of his justice.

Dany is remarkably kind and generous to her servants and followers. She has a degree of empathy for the underdog that is very unusual among members of her class, whether in Westeros or Essos. But, she has an angry cruel streak, which comes out when her emotions are running high - as in this case.

I think that both Stannis and Dany are credible, as mostly just, but flawed, rulers as opposed to paragons of virtue.

Victarion, I think, is a good deal worse than either of them (again, in the author's own words "a dullard and a brut", or "thick as a stump.")

Agree with this post.

[sj4iy]

Using torture to extract a confession probably *is* socially acceptable to most lords and Kings in this world. A lot of them do it. What would not be socially acceptable (outside Slavers Bay) is using torture for fun.

That's not to say that the reader should be at all happy with it, either in general, or in this particular case.

Selmy doesn't like it and says so. He knows where that kind of behavior leads.

[sj4iy]

But of course... I mean, evil bastard Thorne insulted Ned Stark's memory. I mean, HE INSULTED HIM. WITH WORDS. And called Jon a bastard. WOW... those are Tywin/Ramsay/Roose/Maegor levels of cruelty. Didn't he know he was actually the son of Rhaegar and a untouchable prince? There are 109 threads about it, what's his problem??! Doesn't he read??! Jon was completely right on letting HIS EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS making him go and try to kill. Because when you're insulted, or your father is insulted, then YOUR EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS are ok. to surface. Specially when your dad is dead.

On the other hand, the slavers we're only trying to make Dany understand a peaceful message she didn't want to hear, because she's crazy, stupid and stubborn: "Look, girl. We don't care about your lizards, and we don't care you're some kind of mother. You want children? Well, here you have children, mom dearest. Nailed to a pole". How Dany dared to let HER EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS to go after them and punish them for tainting and mock her, and murder 163 innocent children? Can't bitch have some self-control? it's not like they INSULTED her father WITH WORDS or called her a bastard. Of course, not! she's a woman! always having EMOTIONS AND FEELINGS!! Like, when she wants to punish the Usurper's dogs, who actually rebelled against her father, killed him and got her and her brother exiled despite they were children... she's so wrong for wanting them dead, unlike Jon, who wanted to killed Thorned for INSULT Ned. Perhaps if Robert's Rebellion had been just Ned, Robert and Arryn screaming loudly at Aerys, calling him traitor and calling her, Viserys and Rhaegar bastards, then she would be ok having those FEELINGS.

Because calling your father a traitor and bullying you is definitely worst than killing him or crucifying 163 kids to make fun of you.

Obviously.

I never said anything about the crucifixions.

I said that Jon AND Thorne were equally culpable and both deserved punishment.

I said that Dany ordered the torture of innocent people in order to make the wine seller talk because she was angry about the harpist. Honestly, I don't see what is so controversial about my stance that in this particular case, I could understand Jon's actions (even if they are stupid), but I can't sympathize with Dany. Jon didn't go after an innocent person...he went after a man who had it out for him (and even almost has him killed later). In Dany's case, she is having people who are not indicated in anything at all tortured to make thier father confess. Do you think that the father will tell the truth in that situation if he is innocent? Of course not. Any father who cares at all about his children will confess to anything if those children are being tortured in front of them. It's ineffective and punishes the wrong people. It's not justice, which is what Dany is SUPPOSED to be implementing in her new society.

That's what I said. I don't believe I'm being biased comparing these situations. Jon was young and stupid....Dany was malicious.

[Mrs_Darcy]

1. Abhorrent as it, the torture was meant to establish the guilt. It's possibly we will continue this point in circles.

2. I mixed up the incidents, that's my bad. However, I don't agree with your reasoning. The main reason being that you assume Dany's motives in the most reductive way. The points you make render me speechless.

3. No one is saying the wineseller's or his daughters had it coming. You're the only one positing that, as a result of your flawed analogy. Jon doing the deed himself does not make him anymore honourable. All it does is establish Jon's often overlooked hotheadedness. I honestly don't see how the torture would have been anymore acceptable if Dany had been the one conducting it. Finally, punishment does not necessarily establish remorse, which I would argue is the more important "redeeming" act after a questionable action. Dany clearly shows signs of remorse. And as I said in my response to AntZ, she denies the Shavepate the opportunity to repeat more torture sessions.

to 1: You cannot use torture to establish guilt, since people will say anything just for the pain to stop. Hizdahr makes this point, when he says, that after one or two days with the Shavepate he would probably confess to killing Dany's father in Westeros, a deed, which he could not have possibly done.

Dany even realises this, when she thinks, that the people the Shavepate tortures after the wineseller's daughters yield far too many names.

If you want a real-life example of why torture cannot establish guilt think of all the women (and some men) who confessed when tortured to being witches, hexing people and sleeping with the devil during the time people hunted witches. Do you really think, they had done what they confessed?

to 3: Honestly, I do not give Dany kudos for not ordering any more torture for these girls (who could well have been children btw) when one or two chapters later she thinks of the dozens of people the Shavepate tortured afterwards and who sometimes even died because of the torture

[SeanF]

Torture only works if you are very clear about the information you are seeking, you have very good reason to believe that the person you torture has that information, and you can quickly verify that information. Torturing a kidnapped bank manager for the code to his bank's safe would be an example of that.

Torturing a pair of winesellers' daughters to come up with any information they may possess about a terrorist movement is not likely to elicit much useful information. Torturing them until they and their father confess to having been part of the plot and name others may result in the guilty being brought to justice, but is more likely to result in innocent people being harmed for no reason (as Dany subsequently acknowledges). It's also likely to make the victims' friends and relatives a good deal more sympathetic towards the Sons of the Harpy.

This is especially the case when you have a torturer like the Shavepate, who enjoys his work. Giving him a pair of young women to work on is probably his dream come true.

There are plenty of real-life examples of people being driven by torture to confess to crimes they couldn't possibly be guilty of (eg as Mrs. Darcy says, making pacts with the devil). We can't positively rule out the chance that the wineseller and his daughters were guilty of the poisoning, but the evidence points towards their innocence.