Heresy 131 Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised

[Black Crow]

To be honest the more I read of both the original, all of the excellent points above illustrating how this can be interpreted - and those very heavy comments inserted by GRRM as to the unreliability of prophecy, the more inclined I am to doubt that there is going to be an Azor Ahai or a Lightbringer.

I think we are looking at two things here: First there is the red herring of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised. Ever since the two of them burst in upon the scene readers have been tying themselves in knots trying to decide who will turn out to be Azor Ahai, the great hero who will come again to save the world from the Others, and this obsession together with the concurrent one over the true identity of Jon Snow is obscuring what may really be going on.

And although I don't want to derail this particular thread, I also think that the discussion we have also started having about the Heart of Darkness may be very relevant to this. In other words if the Heart of Winter is not to be found on a map but in men's souls, then perhaps the same is true of Azor Ahai and that what all this business is about is not finding that hero among our varied list of candidates; because like the Heart of Winter, Azor Ahai is not a place or person at all. Instead what its all about is what is done [and none of it good] by priests and people, rich and poor in his name.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

[Phillip Frye]

I just noticed something that supports one of Addicted to Whomping Weirwood's hobby horses. I suppose that I'll bring it up six threads from now if I remember.

[TheButcherCrow]

To be honest the more I read of both the original, all of the excellent points above illustrating how this can be interpreted - and those very heavy comments inserted by GRRM as to the unreliability of prophecy, the more inclined I am to doubt that there is going to be an Azor Ahai or a Lightbringer.

I think we are looking at two things here: First there is the red herring of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised. Ever since the two of them burst in upon the scene readers have been tying themselves in knots trying to decide who will turn out to be Azor Ahai, the great hero who will come again to save the world from the Others, and this obsession together with the concurrent one over the true identity of Jon Snow is obscuring what may really be going on.

And although I don't want to derail this particular thread, I also think that the discussion we have also started having about the Heart of Darkness may be very relevant to this. In other words if the Heart of Winter is not to be found on a map but in men's souls, then perhaps the same is true of Azor Ahai and that what all this business is about is not finding that hero among our varied list of candidates; because like the Heart of Winter, Azor Ahai is not a place or person at all. Instead what its all about is what is done [and none of it good] by priests and people, rich and poor in his name.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

:agree: Pretty much what I was going for.

[addicted to snow]

I'm thinking that GRRM based the Red Comet on this:

Caesar's Comet was known to ancient writers as the Sidus Iulium ("Julian Star") or Caesaris astrum ("Star of Caesar"). The bright, daylight-visible comet appeared suddenly during the festival known as the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris – for which the 44 BC iteration was long considered to have been held in the month of September (a conclusion drawn by Sir Edmund Halley). The dating has recently been revised to a July occurrence in the same year, some four months after the assassination of Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar's own birth month. According to Suetonius, as celebrations were getting underway, "a comet shone for seven successive days, rising about the eleventh hour, and was believed to be the soul of Caesar."^[4]

Given the nature of comets, it is probably not too big of a stretch to assume that GRRM intends for the Red Comet to return.

If we could just figure out exactly which soul or souls are currently residing in the Red Comet… Probably Drogo or Drogo + Ned…

When the comet returns, it will deliver the soul of Azor Ahi back to Westeros…

[redriver]

Re: the Red Comet..... I did some work for a now-deleted thread on a now-forbidden topic, and discovered that if you go back through the timeline, Mance's son Aemon Steelsong would have been conceived during the time the comet was visible, and of course he was born "amidst salt and smoke" during the Battle of Castle Black.

I thought the boy wasn't allowed to be named yet?

[redriver]

My thought is that the Prince That Was Promised prophecy was not translated from Valyrian into the Westerosi common tongue for some time after the arrival of the Targaryens into Westeros as rulers. Our best guess is that the prophecy is probably part of the book Signs and Portents, of which no complete copy is extant in ASOIAF (I think that Marwyn has a few scraps that he included in the Book of Lost Books). Therefore, we are talking about a book that was never widely published outside of House Targaryen and is now presumably lost, except for a few extracts.

For this reason, I think that the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised in explicitly human terms, i.e. not as a beast, specifically not as a dragon. However, we know that the Targaryens are crazy about describing themselves as dragons, as probably the other thirty-nine dragon-owning families in Valyria were. Due to their bond with the dragons, Targaryens think of themselves as dragons. Therefore, the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised as a human, but using the term "dragon" in High Valyrian to identify the Prince That Was Promised. For this reason, when translating the prophecy into the Westerosi common tongue, the maesters would not have used the literal translation for "dragon" because the prophecy described a human. Instead, seeing that the nobles from the Freehold (specifically the ones ruling them) described themselves as dragon, the maesters would have used the word "prince". However, the transcription error was as Maester Aemon described: in High Valyrian, the word "dragon" lacks a specific gender. Oops.

You're forgetting about the Jade Compedium from which the AA tradition sprouts.This is Assai'i.whereas the PWWP is Valyrian/Targaryen.

But I'm fairly sure Martin has SSM.ed that they are one and the same.My real difficulty here is why Asshai and Valyria have traditions and prophecies about what seems to be a localized (Westeros) event.

[redriver]

To be honest the more I read of both the original, all of the excellent points above illustrating how this can be interpreted - and those very heavy comments inserted by GRRM as to the unreliability of prophecy, the more inclined I am to doubt that there is going to be an Azor Ahai or a Lightbringer.

I think we are looking at two things here: First there is the red herring of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised. Ever since the two of them burst in upon the scene readers have been tying themselves in knots trying to decide who will turn out to be Azor Ahai, the great hero who will come again to save the world from the Others, and this obsession together with the concurrent one over the true identity of Jon Snow is obscuring what may really be going on.

And although I don't want to derail this particular thread, I also think that the discussion we have also started having about the Heart of Darkness may be very relevant to this. In other words if the Heart of Winter is not to be found on a map but in men's souls, then perhaps the same is true of Azor Ahai and that what all this business is about is not finding that hero among our varied list of candidates; because like the Heart of Winter, Azor Ahai is not a place or person at all. Instead what its all about is what is done [and none of it good] by priests and people, rich and poor in his name.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

As you may know I've theorized that all the worldwide traditions and prophecies may have been derived from a singular event-the hammer of the waters.It makes more sense if it split into three and struck The Land of Always Summer and Asshai too.

This way the nonsensical "three heads has the dragon" and the tempering of Lightbringer start to make sense.Three seems to be the magic number.

[Hrafntýr]

My thought is that the Prince That Was Promised prophecy was not translated from Valyrian into the Westerosi common tongue for some time after the arrival of the Targaryens into Westeros as rulers. Our best guess is that the prophecy is probably part of the book Signs and Portents, of which no complete copy is extant in ASOIAF (I think that Marwyn has a few scraps that he included in the Book of Lost Books). Therefore, we are talking about a book that was never widely published outside of House Targaryen and is now presumably lost, except for a few extracts.

For this reason, I think that the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised in explicitly human terms, i.e. not as a beast, specifically not as a dragon. However, we know that the Targaryens are crazy about describing themselves as dragons, as probably the other thirty-nine dragon-owning families in Valyria were. Due to their bond with the dragons, Targaryens think of themselves as dragons. Therefore, the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised as a human, but using the term "dragon" in High Valyrian to identify the Prince That Was Promised. For this reason, when translating the prophecy into the Westerosi common tongue, the maesters would not have used the literal translation for "dragon" because the prophecy described a human. Instead, seeing that the nobles from the Freehold (specifically the ones ruling them) described themselves as dragon, the maesters would have used the word "prince". However, the transcription error was as Maester Aemon described: in High Valyrian, the word "dragon" lacks a specific gender. Oops.

If I follow, you're suggesting that basically the "original" High Valyrian of the prophecy literally referred to "the dragon that was promised," even as the contextualizing content of the prophecy somehow made clear that this figure was human? I do follow the logic of why Westerosi scholars would have been likely to translate the term "dragon" as "prince," and have generally assumed that this is the most likely scenario, since it's what Maester Aemon implies. And Maester Aemon has had access to two of the best libraries in Westeros over the course of his lifetime (that at the Citadel and that at the Wall). However, it's also possible that the lines of transmission of this prophecy are not as straightforward as we assume. For example, perhaps the prophecy was translated earlier on in Westerosi history, and it was only with the arrival of the Targs, under the influence of the visionary Daenys the Dreamer, that this prophecy was then folded back in to a Targaryen-oriented interpretation, in line with something that Daenys saw and recorded in Signs and Portents.

But in any event, it would be helpful to clarify why we think this question of translation, raised by Aemon, matters. To me, there are two points that come to the fore: 1) the question of whether the prophecy refers to a human at all; and 2) the matter of gender. I think that on point 2) the writing of Aemon's ruminations is supposed to at the least lead us to believe that the gender of the "prince" is indeterminate. I'm not 100% sure about point 1).

But the bigger issue, for me, is the one raised upthread: we have no idea what the significance of the PP might be! It's only when we make the (problematic, imho) equation AAR=PP that we have some trajectory for a PP! I mean, great! There's going to be a prince! I promise! But what is he or she supposed to do, other than be born in salt and smoke and under a bleeding star? The only hint of a "program" is that he/she has a song of ice and fire, if we assume that Rhaegar's research uncovered this info as connected to the PP prophecy. And maybe he/she needs a sword and armour, if we think that Rhaegar's statement that he needed to be a warrior was a direct consequence of the PP prophecy. But to do what!?!

To be honest the more I read of both the original, all of the excellent points above illustrating how this can be interpreted - and those very heavy comments inserted by GRRM as to the unreliability of prophecy, the more inclined I am to doubt that there is going to be an Azor Ahai or a Lightbringer.

I think we are looking at two things here: First there is the red herring of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised. Ever since the two of them burst in upon the scene readers have been tying themselves in knots trying to decide who will turn out to be Azor Ahai, the great hero who will come again to save the world from the Others, and this obsession together with the concurrent one over the true identity of Jon Snow is obscuring what may really be going on.

And although I don't want to derail this particular thread, I also think that the discussion we have also started having about the Heart of Darkness may be very relevant to this. In other words if the Heart of Winter is not to be found on a map but in men's souls, then perhaps the same is true of Azor Ahai and that what all this business is about is not finding that hero among our varied list of candidates; because like the Heart of Winter, Azor Ahai is not a place or person at all. Instead what its all about is what is done [and none of it good] by priests and people, rich and poor in his name.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

Ha ha, I agree in principle, but of course it's awfully hard for us to keep that "objective" distance from the prophecies! We ought, of course, to keep the discussion centered on how the various actors within the novels are likely to interpret the prophecies, to understand various figures, the circumstances of their births, their actions, etc., their motivations for asserting the fruition of the prophecies, or supporting various candidates... but a mark of excellent world-building is the extent to which we readers get drawn in to the mindset of the characters and cultures depicted, with the consequence that conversation quickly turns to who is "objectively" a better candidate for AAR or the PP!

In some way, we have to ask: is this only about in-world actors' beliefs, or are we meant to think that there is something objectively real about these prophecies? I suppose that at a certain point the distinction between the two breaks down, in that in a millenarian age like the "present" of the books, and with so many cataclysmic events on the horizon (winter/night, plague, famine) and so many actors are throwing around candidates to fulfill prophecies that one or another will "have" to come true.

You're forgetting about the Jade Compedium from which the AA tradition sprouts.This is Assai'i.whereas the PWWP is Valyrian/Targaryen.

But I'm fairly sure Martin has SSM.ed that they are one and the same.My real difficulty here is why Asshai and Valyria have traditions and prophecies about what seems to be a localized (Westeros) event.

I believe that the SSM statement of this was later retracted, with the poster admitting that he/she made it up. The only other Martin statement I could find that might be taken to confirm it, really only gives us what we have in the books: that Mel thinks they are one and the same. In the HBO "religions of Westeros" GRRM says this:

In return Melisandre sees that the Lord of Light gives him a token of his role as the Prince that was Promised by ancient prophecy. And that's the sword, Lightbringer

It is extremely tempting to equate the two prophecies, AAR and the PP, largely because we actually have AAR doing something specific, unlike the PP. Right now, Mel is the only one who has linked these two prophecies. The question might be: how successful will she be in convincing others that they are one and the same, and how, exactly, does it matter? I suppose one way it matters is because the PP prophecy links the savior to House Targaryen.

One final, unrelated point: I've always thought that one viable interpretation of "bleeding star" is the sigil of House Dayne. Or, I suppose, that of Dunk/Brienne.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

As you may know I've theorized that all the worldwide traditions and prophecies may have been derived from a singular event-the hammer of the waters.It makes more sense if it split into three and struck The Land of Always Summer and Asshai too.

This way the nonsensical "three heads has the dragon" and the tempering of Lightbringer start to make sense.Three seems to be the magic number.

Yeah. Gotta remember three.

Three is a magic number

ya it is, it's a magic number

Somewhere in that ancient mystic trinity

You'll get three

As a magic number

The past, the present, the future,

Faith, and hope, and charity,

the heart, the brain, the body,

will give you three,

it's a magic number

[alienarea]

IRL we have the Arthur myth in UK (returning from Avalon if need be), the Barbarossa myth in Germany (being in the mountain until ...), and of course Jesus returning at the end of days. Three different myths, with a similar core. But they are not the same and at least two of them will never happen.

If we apply this to ASoIaF, we can just skip the prophecies. GRRM never said they will be fulfilled during the series. He could write another series set 500 years later and have them fulfilled then.

[addicted to snow]

No Opinions on the prospect of Caesar's Comet being GRRM's inspiration for the Red Comet & how this would relate to AAR?

Caesar's Comet was known to ancient writers as the Sidus Iulium ("Julian Star") or Caesaris astrum ("Star of Caesar"). The bright, daylight-visible comet appeared suddenly during the festival known as the Ludi Victoriae Caesaris – for which the 44 BC iteration was long considered to have been held in the month of September (a conclusion drawn by Sir Edmund Halley). The dating has recently been revised to a July occurrence in the same year, some four months after the assassination of Julius Caesar, as well as Caesar's own birth month. According to Suetonius, as celebrations were getting underway, "a comet shone for seven successive days, rising about the eleventh hour, and was believed to be the soul of Caesar."^[4]

[The Free Folk]

Wow, this thread moved quickly! Was just getting caught up on the great discussion at the end of Heresy 130. But great work Butcher Crow, good write-up and some interesting thinking points. I've only really skimmed through the thread after the initial essay, but some thoughts:

[snip]

I agree with everything you've posted here, but wanted to add some thoughts as to the original AA. A few heresies ago, someone mentioned in passing the idea that Lightbringer was the first Valyrian steel sword, which to me makes sense and explains why the process of making Valyrian steel has been forgotten: like all other magic in the ASOIAF world, it requires blood, which is why AA was finally able to forge Lightbringer when he sacrificed Nissa Nissa. Now, what occured to me when recalling this idea and reading the OP essay was the timing, the AA legend is said to be about 5000 years old, which roughly lines up with the initial rise of the Valyrian Empire and the correlated rise of fire magic and dragons. This leads me to think that the original AA was an early (or maybe the first?) Valyrian dragonlord, prince, maegi, or whatever their authoritative positions were. Where the Asshai connection of AA fits in, I am a bit lost, though do have the seeds of an idea that I am going to try to work out for this thread, though it does expand on ideas outside of AA/tPtwP and delves into magic more generally. But alas, for now, I'll leave this idea as is in case any one has other, better ideas of where Asshai would fit into this theory.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

This is probably the moral of the discussion here, and I completely agree with Hrafntyr's post below that what is important when it comes to the prophecies is asking how the characters in the story will act on the prophecies.

Ha ha, I agree in principle, but of course it's awfully hard for us to keep that "objective" distance from the prophecies! We ought, of course, to keep the discussion centered on how the various actors within the novels are likely to interpret the prophecies, to understand various figures, the circumstances of their births, their actions, etc., their motivations for asserting the fruition of the prophecies, or supporting various candidates... but a mark of excellent world-building is the extent to which we readers get drawn in to the mindset of the characters and cultures depicted, with the consequence that conversation quickly turns to who is "objectively" a better candidate for AAR or the PP!

In some way, we have to ask: is this only about in-world actors' beliefs, or are we meant to think that there is something objectively real about these prophecies? I suppose that at a certain point the distinction between the two breaks down, in that in a millenarian age like the "present" of the books, and with so many cataclysmic events on the horizon (winter/night, plague, famine) and so many actors are throwing around candidates to fulfill prophecies that one or another will "have" to come true.

Many apologies for the interruption, but I would like to answer Butterbump's question from the last (locked) Heresy thread regarding what Mance is up to. If the current story is an inversion of the Nights King story, then the King Beyond the Wall is aligned with the Nights King this time against the Lord of Winterfell. So Mance is aligned with Jon and together they'll fight the Boltons.

As you were...

And just wanted to add, that I agree though I think there's much more to it' this discussion was great and would love to pick it back up after the essays are done, or during Wolfmaid's wildling essay if appropriate. Luckily (for me at least), the essays will give me enough time to finish my re-read and gather my thoughts and maybe (hopefully!) come back to this discussion more educated!

[Mithras]

My thought is that the Prince That Was Promised prophecy was not translated from Valyrian into the Westerosi common tongue for some time after the arrival of the Targaryens into Westeros as rulers. Our best guess is that the prophecy is probably part of the book Signs and Portents, of which no complete copy is extant in ASOIAF (I think that Marwyn has a few scraps that he included in the Book of Lost Books). Therefore, we are talking about a book that was never widely published outside of House Targaryen and is now presumably lost, except for a few extracts.

For this reason, I think that the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised in explicitly human terms, i.e. not as a beast, specifically not as a dragon. However, we know that the Targaryens are crazy about describing themselves as dragons, as probably the other thirty-nine dragon-owning families in Valyria were. Due to their bond with the dragons, Targaryens think of themselves as dragons. Therefore, the prophecy probably describes the Prince That Was Promised as a human, but using the term "dragon" in High Valyrian to identify the Prince That Was Promised. For this reason, when translating the prophecy into the Westerosi common tongue, the maesters would not have used the literal translation for "dragon" because the prophecy described a human. Instead, seeing that the nobles from the Freehold (specifically the ones ruling them) described themselves as dragon, the maesters would have used the word "prince". However, the transcription error was as Maester Aemon described: in High Valyrian, the word "dragon" lacks a specific gender. Oops.

Signs and Portents was written by Daenys the Dreamer before the Doom and it contains her visions. We know that the father of Daenys migrated to Dragonstone 12 years before the Doom completely. That book is thought to be lost and Marwyn claims that he recovered 3 pages during his trip to the East. We also know that he went to Asshai and perhaps he found a copy of the book there though it is a speculation. I have a hunch that Marwyn recovered the entire book, not just 3 pages but because of the Citadel Conspiracy, he did not publish them all probably because the content was too dangerous to be published.

From Aemon’s words, I understand that “tPtwP” was first introduced to the Valyrians 1000 years ago after translating something to Valyrian. They first called it a “dragon” (probably not literal dragons but as in the case of Aegon the Dragon) because there is no word for prince/princess in Valyrian (I guess). And when it was finally translated to the common tongue, “tPtwP” was thereafter known as tPtwP.

Since Barth saw the truth of hermaphroditism of the dragons, I think it is possible that he read that original translation from 1000 years before and wrote his own interpretation in his famous book The Unnatural History. That book was banned and destroyed during the reign of Baelor the Blessed but the Citadel should have some copies which I think Aemon read. It is also likely that surviving copies of the Unnatural History might be found in Dorne because Dorne was not part of the Realm during the reign of Baelor.

I already posted my speculation that this translation coincides with the conquest of the Rhoynar so tPtwP prophecy might be of Rhoynish origin.

I should also note that Valyria-Rhoyne feud continued until it was resolved by marriage between Daeron II and Myriah Martell plus Maron Martell and Dany Targaryen. And it was only a hundred years and a couple of decades ago. I think there is a great magical importance of Targaryen-Martell marriages.

“Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron’s dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid.”

“Would it?” Dunk had his doubts.

Not Egg. “Aemon and I used to pretend that our eggs would be the ones to hatch. If they did, we could fly through the sky on dragonback, like the first Aegon and his sisters.”

“Aye, and if all the other knights in the realm should die, I’d be the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.”

Dunk became the LC of the KG and the dragons (literal ones) returned. By the way, Egg’s egg was not one of Dany’s three so it did not hatch. The egg of Eleana Targaryen however had a remarkable resemblance to the egg of Viserion. I think Varys as a boy sabotaged the hatching at Summerhal and stole Targaryen dragon eggs. Three of them were given to Dany by Illyrio and they hatched. It would be perfect if Drogon’s egg once belonged to Baelor Breakspear.

He [Aemon] spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed.

That dreamer was most probably Daeron and it was about the return of dragons. It is interesting that Aemon or some other Targaryens tried to light glass candles. I have a suspicion that Bloodraven might have used and still be using a glass candle from the Citadel. The eggs that would not hatch were probably at Summerhal.

In short, Signs and Portents was a lost book from a couple of hundred years ago and I don’t think the error in translation originated from that book. I don’t think Barth or Aemon read that book but perhaps Mel read it in Asshai.

ETA: AAR was prophesized 5000 years ago in Asshai. Does that coincide with the taming of the dragons and foundation of dragonlord families?

“You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing.

Is there a reason to believe that AAR prophecy of the Asshai is the same as "tPtwP" prophecy originating from Rhoyne according to my suggestion? I think as a heretic to the general view of the Red Religion, Mel might have reached this conclusion during her stuides in Asshai by comparing different sources.

ETA2: The fall of Old Ghiscari Empire was also 5000 years ago. Benerro is preaching that Dany is AAR and her fight against the slavers (started in the remnants of Old Ghis) is the prophesized war against darkness. He curses the Harpy. Perhaps the interpretation of Benerro bases on this version only.

ETA3: What was the prophecy King Aerys I read that made him believe that the dragons would return?

[Melifeather]

Its one of my thoughts atlease, Rheago in combination with Drogo's Stallion.So essentially the prophecy still is in play,just not in the way Dany thought it would be. Rheago will mount the world just not as a man.

I'd hold on to this thought for the Wildlings Thread Feather,i think it will come into play as another angle.

This makes sense to me that the old woman that prophecized (spell?) that Rhaego would be the stallion that mounts the world misinterpreted her visions. She thought Rhaego as a human would mount the world, but it was his very sacrifice along with his father that birthed dragons with fire-y swords.

If you want to go that literal then yeah it doesn't work ATS,but a sword doesn't always mean a sword. E.g

" I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden’s blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain (Lady Barbary)."

In this case as in many myths Sword is also a Phallic symbol.I draw this example to point out when it comes to prophecies as with dreams its not so "in the box".

Ha-ha, that's great!

I get the feeling this is a "Who is Ned's Stark's Mother?" situation all over. Answer "Lady Stark" yet no one thinking she was actually a Stark.

Wolfmaid, we are in great agreement this morning!

To be honest the more I read of both the original, all of the excellent points above illustrating how this can be interpreted - and those very heavy comments inserted by GRRM as to the unreliability of prophecy, the more inclined I am to doubt that there is going to be an Azor Ahai or a Lightbringer.

I think we are looking at two things here: First there is the red herring of Azor Ahai/Prince that was Promised. Ever since the two of them burst in upon the scene readers have been tying themselves in knots trying to decide who will turn out to be Azor Ahai, the great hero who will come again to save the world from the Others, and this obsession together with the concurrent one over the true identity of Jon Snow is obscuring what may really be going on.

And although I don't want to derail this particular thread, I also think that the discussion we have also started having about the Heart of Darkness may be very relevant to this. In other words if the Heart of Winter is not to be found on a map but in men's souls, then perhaps the same is true of Azor Ahai and that what all this business is about is not finding that hero among our varied list of candidates; because like the Heart of Winter, Azor Ahai is not a place or person at all. Instead what its all about is what is done [and none of it good] by priests and people, rich and poor in his name.

Its the pursuit of that prophecy rather than its realisation which this is all about.

I can see Lightbringer as a person who discovers and spreads truth, as in bringing enlightenment.

And, I am wondering if Azor Ahai are the dragons?

[King of Winters]

The basic sense I got was that Dany fits the prophecy the closest She is the only one (so far) to "wake Dragons from stone", but I sense that doesn't really matter. The prophecy is extremely vague and people will chose to follow who they choose to follow based on what's important to them. Posterity will then deal with who is named Azor Ahai Reborn and who is name Night's King.

They are things that happen physically, such as Dany waking dragons from stone eggs, to things that happen metaphorically, such as the theory that Jon will wake the dragon from stone when he goes into Lya's tomb and what he finds in there will help people realise he's a Targ (dragon).

Saying that, I think that AAR/TPTWP presented as a saviour for all the world is perhaps one of the biggest red herrings of the series. Everyone wants someone in the books to be AAR/TPTWP and save them from the army of WW, led by The Great Other. There just has to be more to AAR/TPTWP than people think.

[King of Winters]

“A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”

Aemon communicated with Rhaegar and he should have this information too. But still, he thought that Stannis might be the PtwP for some time. That means he ruled out this evidence while he was thinking that Stannis might be the one. That makes me wonder what else was he ruling out when he heatedly argued that Dany is the one.

My thinking is that if Aemon had lived long enough to hear of Aegon rising in the east, or when he lands in Westeros and unveils himself, he'd have changed his mind to him from Dany. He and Rhaegar both agreed years ago that Aegon was TPTWP, however when he was though to be killed Aemon gave up.

Aemon, as wise as he is, got the identity wrong about TPTWP twice. So who's to say he could be wrong this time as well, he doesn't know all the facts that he needs.

[Mithras]

My thinking is that if Aemon had lived long enough to hear of Aegon rising in the east, or when he lands in Westeros and unveils himself, he'd have changed his mind to him from Dany. He and Rhaegar both agreed years ago that Aegon was TPTWP, however when he was though to be killed Aemon gave up.

Aemon, as wise as he is, got the identity wrong about TPTWP twice. So who's to say he could be wrong this time as well, he doesn't know all the facts that he needs.

Completely agreed. Aemon was wrong all his life. He did not know many things such as Jon's real father or fAegon. So why should we think that he got it right just before he died from fever?

“I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think.”

said the crow to the raven.

[King of Winters]

Completely agreed. Aemon was wrong all his life. He did not know many things such as Jon's real father or fAegon. So why should we think that he got it right just before he died from fever?

“I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think.”

said the crow to the raven.

It's wishful thinking from both Aemon and Dany supporters. They have Aemon, a wise man, who's saying Dany's AAR/TPTWP, and they're not pausing to think whether he's really a credible source, or whether he's saying that because he thinks she's the last Targ left.

[redriver]

Completely agreed. Aemon was wrong all his life. He did not know many things such as Jon's real father or fAegon. So why should we think that he got it right just before he died from fever?

“I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think.”

said the crow to the raven.

Yep.Maeter Aemon is a red herring.

[Steelborn]

Why would Ned be so important so the comet means his soul + Drogo?

I can understand Drogo because of all the blood sacrifice, but I can't see Ned.