Sansa: The Unreliable Narrator

[juanml82]

Sansa's unreliability is vastly overstated. She's no more unreliable than any other character, and probably is more reliable than most.

It doesn't seem like we have more unkisses so she is indeed one of the most, if not the most, unreliable POV

Sansa just likes to blame people for events. She must have hated Janos for some reason, I finished AGoT a while ago so I forget if she did. But she clearly had some sort of dislike for Slynt, and of course put the blame on him for this situation, even though it wasn't directly his fault.

And why would she hate Janos Slynt of all people... :rolleyes: The guy was given Harrenhall and a set in the Small Council after Ned's arrest. Even AGOT Sansa can connect those dots

[Florina Laufeyson]

Sansa is actually a pretty interesting narrator. Like when shes actually observing something firsthand, its pretty reliable. Most of her unreliable-ness happens after her initial observations. Like its clear the Hound didnt kiss her, and her observation of the scene as it happened said so. However, she ~remembers~ that he kissed her.

Sansa has a pretty heated hatred for Janos Slynt. Isnt it in one of her chapters that shes like "oh i wish someone would just remove his head from his shoulders...A hero that would be."

And then we get "Edd, fetch me a block."

:smug:

[imaginepageant]

I rather doubt GRRM would have forgotten such a significant detail.

Is it significant? It might not be; we won't really know until the series is complete. It might be significant for Sansa from a personal perspective, but likely not for the overall story, especially if the Hound is truly dead. And if it isn't significant to the overall story, it wouldn't be difficult to forget. I've certainly forgotten even some more important details while writing, and especially while revising, when everything's sort of in a state of flux.

[MyLittleFinger]

Sansa is actually a pretty interesting narrator. Like when shes actually observing something firsthand, its pretty reliable. Most of her unreliable-ness happens after her initial observations. Like its clear the Hound didnt kiss her, and her observation of the scene as it happened said so. However, she ~remembers~ that he kissed her.

Sansa has a pretty heated hatred for Janos Slynt. Isnt it in one of her chapters that shes like "oh i wish someone would just remove his head from his shoulders...A hero that would be."

And then we get "Edd, fetch me a block."

:smug:

She's also like 13, and I think we can all agree that around that age (boy/girl) you like to skew things your own way...actually I know people who still do that now :idea:

[LongRider]

A naive girl who thinks her efforts have saved her father, to be suddenly betrayed by her betrothed and having her father suddenly executed in front of her? I can excuse a person, real or fictional, if they scramble some of the facts in their memories of this very unexpected traumatic event.

[Le Cygne]

Unreliable narrators are quite common in stories, and this one is no exception. GRRM:

"I have a horse that changes sex between the first and second book, for example. I do make mistakes, and I regret that because it confuses the issue. There are other so-called 'mistakes' in the book that are not mistakes -- they're very intentional because I'm trying to get at something having to do with the point of view structure and the unreliable narrator. Two different characters may remember an event in two different ways -- well that's not a mistake, that's deliberate. When you have horses changing sex, it blurs the distinction and throws the reader off. So I guess that's a valid mistake."

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/07/george-rr-martin-on-sex-fantasy-and-a-dance-with-dragons/241738/3/

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think there are some examples of her being an unreliable narrator, but they're mostly about how her trying to talk herself into something. Like, in aSoS she thinks she's not a silly little girl anymore (as opposed to Margaery's cousins), but she still fantasizes about her marriage to Willas Tyrell. And then in aFfC she convinces herself that a lie is not so bad if it's for a good reason (or something along those lines), even though she knows all the evil shit LF has done

As to the unkiss, I think that's a very jarring and out of the blue moment that doesn't really feel organic and stands out from the rest of the narrative

[LongRider]

"Two different characters may remember an event in two different ways -- well that's not a mistake, that's deliberate." GRRM

Heck, I've had that happen in real life. :dunno: Memories aren't always that reliable in reality or fiction.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

There is a difference between remembering if you had pizza or chicken last night and Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and who killed your dad. Those are things that would burn in the memory.

[Erza Whitewalker]

There is a difference between remembering if you had pizza or chicken last night and Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and who killed your dad. Those are things that would burn in the memory.

Sansa never actually kissed the Hound, and the Hound had nothing to do with Ned's death.

She cupped Sandor's face and sang for him, and she probably didn't even realize she saved herself from rape. Why she invented the kiss in her memories is something we'll learn, as GRRM has noted it as a plot point.

Janos Slynt was involved with forcing Ned down for his beheading, and Payne did the deed.

When Tyrion had Slynt as a dinner guest, he asked him about putting the spear to Ned's back. Haven't got time to check for the exact quote in aCoK but obviously Slynt was present and involved with the , um, execution of the execution.

[Le Cygne]

Seems like she is pretending they kissed (she uses that word in her last chapter) because she wants to kiss him.

Here's the quote:

If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers....

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

[Grail King]

Sansa never actually kissed the Hound, and the Hound had nothing to do with Ned's death.

She cupped Sandor's face and sang for him, and she probably didn't even realize she saved herself from rape. Why she invented the kiss in her memories is something we'll learn, as GRRM has noted it as a plot point.

Janos Slynt was involved with forcing Ned down for his beheading, and Payne did the deed.

When Tyrion had Slynt as a dinner guest, he asked him about putting the spear to Ned's back. Haven't got time to check for the exact quote in aCoK but obviously Slynt was present and involved with the , um, execution of the execution.

I still think she got into his head without realizing it, and may have interpreted it as he kissed her, when maybe he was thinking about it himself.

[Le Cygne]

And let's look at the rest of the story, because that matters, too:

Sandor (makes her sing a song) - she caresses his face, puts on his cloak, pretends they kissed, dreams of him in bed with her, places him in the marriage bed, is bitter that he left her, and on and on and on...

Other men:

Meryn (beat her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said

Joffrey (torments her) - later, she remembers what Sandor said

Slynt (remembers what he did) - later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice)

Kingsguard (beat her) - later, she notes that Sandor never beat her; later, she remembers what Sandor said

Rapists (attack her) - later, she remembers Sandor rescued her (repeatedly)

Ilyn (after Cersei scares her about rape) - she wishes Sandor was there to protect her instead

Tyrion (orders her to strip, gropes her breast) - later, she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice), wonders where he is; later, she dreams of Sandor in bed with her instead

Marillion (gropes her breast, too) - she imagines Sandor is there to rescue her instead (once again, hears his voice)

Littlefinger (forces kisses, also touches her breast) - later, she pretends to kiss Sandor instead

She trusts Sandor, and that's been going on since the story began. Maybe they both just want a happy memory of each other. Her song, his kiss. Maybe it's as simple as that.

[DeathYon]

Aren't a number of these 'mistakes' on purpose?

George has said that he likes to alter POV's perspectives so that they aren't 100 % reliable.

[LongRider]

There is a difference between remembering if you had pizza or chicken last night and Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and who killed your dad. Those are things that would burn in the memory.

This sentence describes Littlefinger. Her first kiss from him was when she built the snow Winterfell at the Eyrie. Later she thinks "I never wanted a kiss, I was building a castle in the snow." So yeah, she remembers it, but not fondly. Nor is she fond of LF's other kisses and groping.

The Un-kiss is something different tho. The Hound didn't kiss her. She is misremembering his kiss. She remembers she didn't like LF's kiss and misremembered she like Sandor's kiss.

I think that means something.

[LongRider]

Aren't a number of these 'mistakes' on purpose?

George has said that he likes to alter POV's perspectives so that they aren't 100 % reliable.

Yes, the Un-kiss is on purpose and means something.

[Isobel Harper]

Sansa never actually kissed the Hound, and the Hound had nothing to do with Ned's death.

She cupped Sandor's face and sang for him, and she probably didn't even realize she saved herself from rape. Why she invented the kiss in her memories is something we'll learn, as GRRM has noted it as a plot point.

Janos Slynt was involved with forcing Ned down for his beheading, and Payne did the deed.

When Tyrion had Slynt as a dinner guest, he asked him about putting the spear to Ned's back. Haven't got time to check for the exact quote in aCoK but obviously Slynt was present and involved with the , um, execution of the execution.

I think AryaNymeriaVisenya meant "(1)Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and (2)who killed your dad." I.e, two different men.

[Red Wedding Cake]

Seems like she is pretending they kissed (she uses that word in her last chapter) because she wants to kiss him.

Has she used the word pretend about the un-kiss? She seems to genuinely believe the Hound kissed her and threatened to kill her.

Sansa wondered what Megga would think about kissing the Hound, as she had. He'd come to her the night of the battle stinking of wine and blood. He kissed me and threatened to kill me, and made me sing him a song.

And let's look at the rest of the story, because that matters, too:

Sandor (makes her sing a song) - she caresses his face, puts on his cloak, pretends they kissed, dreams of him in bed with her, places him in the marriage bed, is bitter that he left her, and on and on and on...

Other men:

Meryn (beat her) - she remembers what Sandor said

Joffrey (torments her) - she remembers what Sandor said

Slynt (remembers what he did) - she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice)

Kingsguard (beat her) - she notes that Sandor never beat her; later she remembers what Sandor said

Rapists (attack her) - she remembers Sandor rescued her (repeatedly)

Ilyn (after Cersei scares her about rape) - she wishes Sandor was there to protect her instead

Tyrion (orders her to strip, gropes her breast) - she remembers what Sandor said (hears his voice), wonders where he is; later she dreams of Sandor in bed with her instead

Marillion (gropes her breast, too) - she imagines Sandor is there to rescue her instead (once again, hears his voice)

Littlefinger (forces kisses, also touches her breast) - she pretends to kiss Sandor instead

She trusts Sandor, and that's been going on since the story began. Maybe they both just want a happy memory of each other. Her song, his kiss. Maybe it's as simple as that.

Given Sansa thinks of the un-kiss during unwelcomed kisses from Marillion and Sweetrobin and when the girls talk of kissing, and the un-kiss itself was pretty traumatic, what makes Sansa think fondly of the un-kiss? Isn't it more likely Sansa is just turned off from kissing in general?

I also can't find where she thinks of the Hound when she kisses Littlefinger, though she does find the kissing uncomfortable.

[Erza Whitewalker]

I still think she got into his head without realizing it, and may have interpreted it as he kissed her, when maybe he was thinking about it himself.

That's interesting. I've been wondering if Sansa has been unconsciously developing her warg abilities by forming an empathic bond with the weaker-minded. Sandor was in a feral state; when I read the passage about Lollys being dragged by mother and Shae at BBWB, it seems to me that for a moment Sansa almost reached her; and of course she "has a way" with Robin. It's not warging - it's more like touching another's mind. Using the word "instinct" about her cupping his face may be a clue.

[Erza Whitewalker]

I think AryaNymeriaVisenya meant "(1)Your first kiss with a much older man who terrifies you and (2)who killed your dad." I.e, two different men.

Still, the point is that there was no kiss and Sansa remembers one - it's a false memory that's been seared into her consciousness. Slynt was part of the execution, not the only one responsible for the physical act. I think I need to check the actual execution and Sansa's memory of it.