Did Theon slay one of his own bastards?

[DireWolfSpirit]

It would depend on the age of the younger Miller boy they burned

when he was hunting the Stark brothers ,(The older boy was 12, too old

to be Theon's).

The book does mention Theon had "affairs" with the Miller boys mother.

[James Arryn]

Wait, he burned them alive? I have somehow totally blanked out that detail.

[joluoto2]

It's possible, but as you said it depends on the age of the younger brother.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Wait, he burned them alive? I have somehow totally blanked out that detail.

I believe so.

The actual details aren't dwelled on.

But Theon seems to have ordered the the boys burned to double

as Rickon and Bran.

"Reek" likely carried it out, what state the boys were in isn't explained.

I suppose it's possible they were knocked out or asphyxiated first?

[TrueOrFalse]

I believe so.

The actual details aren't dwelled on.

But Theon seems to have ordered the the boys burned to double

as Rickon and Bran.

Cleglaw likely carried it out, what state the boys were in isn't explained.

I suppose it's possible they were knocked out or asphyxiated first?

What? There's nothing that suggests they were burned alive. It's far more likely that they were killed and burned afterwards to disguise the bodies.

[James Arryn]

I believe so.

The actual details aren't dwelled on.

But Theon seems to have ordered the the boys burned to double

as Rickon and Bran.

Cleglaw likely carried it out, what state the boys were in isn't explained.

I suppose it's possible they were knocked out or asphyxiated first?

I always assumed it was post-mortem, simply to disguise the bodies. Bad enough, and Theon's one really bad act, but if he actually joined the League of People Burners, I definitely lower him several notches.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Wait, he burned them alive? I have somehow totally blanked out that detail.

I believe so.

The actual details aren't dwelled on.

But Theon seems to have ordered the the boys burned to double

as Rickon and Bran.

Cleglaw likely carried it out, what state the boys were in isn't explained.

I suppose it's possible they were knocked out or asphyxiated first?

What? There's nothing that suggests they were burned alive. It's far more likely that they were killed and burned afterwards to disguise the bodies.

Nah thats show only, they were killed and then "Reek" skinned their bodies to hide their identities.

As to the OP, not likely, but I guess the possibility is there.

[INCBlackbird]

the Burning is only in the show (and it's mentioned that it happened post mortum) in the books Ramsay killed them (though I guess we don't know how and I don't think Theon does either), decapitated them and dipped their heads in tar. as for the actual question, I think it's highly unlikely that even one of them was Theon's, mostly because Theon remembers "tumbling the miller's wife once or twice" so it would be a huge coincidence, I also think he's too young, even for the younger child. AND how would we find out plotwise...? the miller's wife is dead (and how would she even know who's child it was? except if she ONLY slept with Theon for a while could she know and she was married)... and what purpose would it have for the plot...?

[John Suburbs]

And yet the Hooded Man pointedly calls Theon "kinslayer", which Theon takes to mean the Stark boys were his brothers, which they weren't. But what if the Hooded Man is aware of Theon's relationship with the miller's wife and either knows for a fact that at least one of the boys was his or can put two-and-two together?

Is it confirmed that the older boy was 12? Brandon was only about 8 at the time and Rickon was 5(?), so it would have to be a small 12-year-old to pass him off as 8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking the miller's boys were more like 10 and 6, tops, possibly as young as 7 and four, which would certainly put them both within the realm of possibility.

Plot-wise, it would make Theon a kinslayer, cursed of the gods. But since this is Martin, not everything has to exist in order to support the plot. There are all kinds of interconnections between people, events etc., that just are -- just like in real life where sometimes the hero is killed and the bad guy is rewarded.

[James Steller]

And yet the Hooded Man pointedly calls Theon "kinslayer", which Theon takes to mean the Stark boys were his brothers, which they weren't. But what if the Hooded Man is aware of Theon's relationship with the miller's wife and either knows for a fact that at least one of the boys was his or can put two-and-two together?

Is it confirmed that the older boy was 12? Brandon was only about 8 at the time and Rickon was 5(?), so it would have to be a small 12-year-old to pass him off as 8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking the miller's boys were more like 10 and 6, tops, possibly as young as 7 and four, which would certainly put them both within the realm of possibility.

Plot-wise, it would make Theon a kinslayer, cursed of the gods. But since this is Martin, not everything has to exist in order to support the plot. There are all kinds of interconnections between people, events etc., that just are -- just like in real life where sometimes the hero is killed and the bad guy is rewarded.

I think this is overreaching. Theon grew up with Bran and Rickon and they considered him an older brother of sorts. If we assume that the Hooded Man is Theon himself, he could consider them nearer to kin than his biological family. His conscious personified to judge himself all the more harshly.

And if it isn't Theon, they'd still know about Theon having been a ward with the Starks for years, and if you spend your childhood to teen years growing up somewhere, you're going to have associations with that family. And if the Hooded Man wants to intimidate or scare Theon, why not remind him that he killed his foster siblings?

[aryagonnakill#2]

People get so caught up on the Millers boys. The Hooded man would have had no way of knowing they were Theons anyway so that is just a ridiculous argument. As said above they were not burned in the books.

If you want to look for a bastard of Theons, look at the captains daughter he was banging all the way to Pyke. She may very well be the girl Sam saw with a baby when he arrived in Oldtown.

[DireWolfSpirit]

I have edited the title from "burn" to "slay".

For me the focus I was interested in was whether these boys were Theons.

I think this is mentioned from the WOIAF Wiki-

When Theon Greyjoy takes Winterfell, Bran is lead out of his room where he meets Meera and Jojen, who have also been taken captive.[7] Alebelly,[7] Septon Chayle,[8] and Mikken[7] are slain by the ironborn as Jojen had foreseen in his green dream. The Stark and Reed children later fake an escape with Osha and Hodor, however, and hide in the crypts of Winterfell.[9] Unable to find them, Theon and "Reek" murder a pair of miller's boys and present their flayed bodies as Bran and Rickon to the people of Winterfell.[8][10]

[Mithras]

Yes, the youngerboy was his.

Oberyn fathered Obara at the same age Theon was when the younger boy was conceived.

[LmL]

I believe one of Mance's spear wives (the washer women) calls Theon a kinslayer also.

The hooded man is most liked a northman, perhaps Robett Glover (the North's James Bond). Apparently there are some that know of Theon's sleeping with the Miller's wife, and that the dead children are hers. Only a local would be aware of that, it would seem. I can't think of any over reason anyone would call him a kinslayer. Bran and Rickon weren't kin. The sin of "kinslaying" is specifically about blood relations.

[John Suburbs]

I think this is overreaching. Theon grew up with Bran and Rickon and they considered him an older brother of sorts. If we assume that the Hooded Man is Theon himself, he could consider them nearer to kin than his biological family. His conscious personified to judge himself all the more harshly.

And if it isn't Theon, they'd still know about Theon having been a ward with the Starks for years, and if you spend your childhood to teen years growing up somewhere, you're going to have associations with that family. And if the Hooded Man wants to intimidate or scare Theon, why not remind him that he killed his foster siblings?

People get so caught up on the Millers boys. The Hooded man would have had no way of knowing they were Theons anyway so that is just a ridiculous argument. As said above they were not burned in the books.

If you want to look for a bastard of Theons, look at the captains daughter he was banging all the way to Pyke. She may very well be the girl Sam saw with a baby when he arrived in Oldtown.

Absolutely, this was not meant to be slam-dunk evidence, just a curious thing.

But realize that you are both basing your objections on who or what the Hooded Man is and what he knows or doesn't know. And since his identity is still unkown, you have to concede that it is possible he is a real person who might have some knowledge about Theon and his relationship to the miller's wife. Theon is a braggart, so he probably told more than one person in and/or around Winterfell that he bagged her. Hallis Mollen is still alive, and someone reclosed the door to the crypts after Bran & Co. left.

As for blood kin vs. foster siblings, curses are funny things. If you are talking about a curse that draws actual retribution from the gods, I'd bet that only direct blood kin count, not fosters. If it is simply a self-fulfilling curse because the whole world thinks you're cursed, then yeah, you are a kinslayer because people think you are.

[Sullen]

Unlikely, and it doesn't bring anything to the story in any case.

[Mithras]

Unlikely, and it doesn't bring anything to the story in any case.

Then what was the point of mentioning Theon banged the miller's wife back in the day and Ygritte mentioning that the gods abhor even the unintended kinslaying just in the next chapter or so?

[LmL]

Unlikely, and it doesn't bring anything to the story in any case.

Have to disagree. Kinslaying is a huge deal - how can you miss that? They make such a big deal out of it, across all the books. Plus, almost everything George does is intentional. This is way too weird of a thing to say to be inconsequential, and the way they talked about it for a minute really drew attention to the idea.

Since we know he slept with the Miller's wife, how exactly is it unlikely? It's totally likely, and would fit quite well thematically.

[LmL]

The word "kinslayer" appears 18 times in ADWD, so it's probably important.

And yes, besides the hooded man, Rowan, one of the washerwomen / spearwives calls him a kinslayer as well, meaning it is definitely NOT a coincidence. When George draws this much attention to something, there is something going on there.

“Not us.” Rowan grabbed him by the throat and shoved him back against the barracks wall, her face an inch from his. “Say it again and I will rip your lying tongue out, kinslayer.”

He smiled through his broken teeth. “You won’t. You need my tongue to get you past the guards. You need my lies.”

Rowan spat in his face. Then she let him go and wiped her gloved hands on her legs, as if just touching him had soiled her. Theon knew he should not goad her. In her own way, this one was as dangerous as Skinner or Damon Dance- for- Me. But he was cold and tired, his head was pounding, he had not slept in days. “I have done terrible things … betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me … but I am no kinslayer.”

“Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.” That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller’s sons . Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller’s wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again . But there was no use telling Rowan any of that. She would never believe his denials, any more than he believed hers. “There is blood on my hands, but not the blood of brothers,” he said wearily. “And I’ve been punished.”

“Not enough.” Rowan turned her back on him.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Well it also (if the boys were kin) reminds us of Theons own difficult

relationship with Balon, his father.

I think it ( the possibility) adds an interesting layer to the story certainly.