Annara Snow Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 dp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 The only thing Tywin really accomplished himself was the secret alliance with Roose Bolton and Walder Frey and the planning of the Red Wedding in order to destroy Robb Stark and the Northern cause. [...] I must be misremembering but I think not even that was his own idea. He was just approached by Frey and got lucky Lady Westerling was always loyal to keep her daughter from getting pregnant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Tywin's reputation as no one to be messed with stemmed from his ruthelss treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks, then ofcourse, The sack of King's Landing and the slaughter of Rheagar's children and rape and murder of Elia of Dorne. Robb was schooling him real well with inferior numbers and less financials but Robb was lacking the one thing other characters never seem to run out of, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annara Snow Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 At the beginning of two5k renly and the reach were marching slowly towards kl with stannis being an afterthought since no one knew about the incest. Dorne hated the lannisters and robb was just crowned after scattering 15k and capturing jaime with the riverlands rallying and the vale expected to join. The ironborn then declared independence stannis killed renly and took a chunk of his army to march on kl. Tywin's subordinates lf and tyrion managed to get dorne to sit out and the Tyrells to join then doesn't he get credit for that? He gets the blame for the crap Lannister in charge of the host in the weSt losing so why not credit when they do good. When he was killed Bolton was fixing the north, stannis had no chance and the ironborn were irrelevant. I'm not aruing he didn't roll 3 doubles in a row without going to jail with some bs luck but he still did very good with the hand he was dealt and he would have struggled with dany,aegon and dorne no doubt. Now I'd say agree to disagree we're ruining the nice rants about d&d. No, Tywin deserves no credit for the things Tyrion did on his own. (And Tyrion did not actually keep Dorne from participating, although he believed he did; it was a good idea, but Doran had his own plans and was always going to sit out before throwing his support for a Targaryen, though Tyrion could not have known that.) Even appointing Tyrion was something he did because he had no other options, since Jaime was captured. The loss at Whispering Wood is something that Tywin is responsible for, because he fell for Robb's ruse (ha!), underestimated him and believed that he was engaging Robb's entire host instead of a smaller one lead by Roose Bolton, instead of marching to meet Robb with the rest of the Lannister army. The "green boy" beat him as a tactician. Tywin's reputation as no one to be messed with stemmed from his ruthelss treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks, then ofcourse, The sack of King's Landing and the slaughter of Rheagar's children and rape and murder of Elia of Dorne. Robb was schooling him real well with inferior numbers and less financials but Robb was lacking the one thing other characters never seem to run out of, good luck. Yes, Tywin is great at terrorizing smallfolk, ordering murders of children and mass murders of civilians in general, and organizing massacres of unsuspecting people at weddings - and keeping his hands relatively 'clean' through most of it, by assigning those tasks to others he could distance himself from when it suited him. But as military commander, I'm struggling to come up with any particular accomplishments on his part. The Battle of Blackwater? Won due to Tyrion's tactics and the support of the Tyrells. Falling for Robb Stark's ruse and beating the inferior northern host, leading to a major Lannister defeat at the Whispering Wood and the capture of his son? Sitting out most of the RR and then taking over a city that had opened its doors to him? ...Oh, ranting and raving. Well, here's the connection: D&D seem to adore Tywin. They really seem to think he was a great leader and not just that, but also "Lawful Neutral" (while, oddly enough, they hate Stannis, who actually is Lawful Neutral) and a kind grandfatherly figure (to Arya). If I were particularly cynical, I'd say the cutting of the Tysha reveal was an example of their whitewashing of Tywin getting in the way of even their whitewashing of Tyrion. But it probably just due to their incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Tywin's reputation as no one to be messed with stemmed from his ruthelss treatment of the Reynes and Tarbecks, then ofcourse, The sack of King's Landing and the slaughter of Rheagar's children and rape and murder of Elia of Dorne. Robb was schooling him real well with inferior numbers and less financials but Robb was lacking the one thing other characters never seem to run out of, good luck. It's actually pretty amazing if you think about that. He only ever had so much control over his children through cruelty with Tyrion and cashing in the admiration of Jaime and Cersei through them looking up to him. It is as if his whole fearsome reputation is only exactly that: A reputation he needs to keep up with an iron fist so that people don't start realizing that he is not the political genius he makes them believe he is, but only a slightly above-average politician, a mediocre commander, as well as petty in his grudges and a hypocrite in regards to personal matters (I'm looking at you, Shae). What was his contribution to his second war anyway? Getting his fleet smashed in its harbour during the Greyjoy rebellion? Wow. The only thing he really seems to excel at is as accountant, but seeing how people in Westeros look down upon that in the case of Littlefinger, I cannot blame him for trying to look for other ways to make people respect his rule. So it's just a good mathematician who oozes pragmatism and pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 No, Tywin deserves no credit for the things Tyrion did on his own. (And Tyrion did not actually keep Dorne from participating, although he believed he did; it was a good idea, but Doran had his own plans and was always going to sit out before throwing his support for a Targaryen, though Tyrion could not have known that.) Even appointing Tyrion was something he did because he had no other options, since Jaime was captured. The loss at Whispering Wood is something that Tywin is responsible for, because he fell for Robb's ruse (ha!), underestimated him and believed that he was engaging Robb's entire host instead of a smaller one lead by Roose Bolton, instead of marching to meet Robb with the rest of the Lannister army. The "green boy" beat him as a tactician. Tyrion was appointed because tywin recognised he was skilled. He had other options kevan or several western lords. I agree tywin was out foxed by robb in a tactical sence but politically tywin outplayed the green boy. (ha i guess i dont really like tywin but he was a good character, great lord and ruler) But if its his fault jaime was captured because he gave jaime the troops why doesn't he get credit when appointing tyrion goes well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~DarkHorse~ Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I came across this interview again and thought it would be relevant to this thread. Here is a reminder of what GRRM said about Tyrion- Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character? Martin: I've got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He's the villain of course, but hey, there's nothing like a good villain. source: https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html :lmao: This in no way translates on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's 20 Good Men Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Tyrion was appointed because tywin recognised he was skilled. He had other options kevan or several western lords. I agree tywin was out foxed by robb in a tactical sence but politically tywin outplayed the green boy. (ha i guess i dont really like tywin but he was a good character, great lord and ruler) But if its his fault jaime was captured because he gave jaime the troops why doesn't he get credit when appointing tyrion goes well? Beating Robb politically isn't really saying much, and it was his fault for Jaime as Tywin actually fell for Robb's trap, whereas getting Dorne on his side had nothing to do with him, even if he was the one who appointed Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TepidHands Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 They never said he was raping them. Could be, one of them was said to be Gatehouse Ami. Oh, I got the name wrong, Black Walder was trueborn so he's a Frey. And he's supposedly fathered children off both of his brothers' wives. I'm wondering if that was consentual or Crastersentual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Beating Robb politically isn't really saying much, and it was his fault for Jaime as Tywin actually fell for Robb's trap, whereas getting Dorne on his side had nothing to do with him, even if he was the one who appointed Tyrion. Getting dorne and the Tyrells and reigning in cerseis incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's 20 Good Men Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Getting dorne and the Tyrells and reigning in cerseis incompetence. Yes, that was Tyrion who did that, not Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuvuuia Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I would never understood why did they choose not to reveal the truth about Tysha. That's such an important moment for Tyrion, it's in the core of his personality, and it doesn't get in the way of his whitewashing. If they didn't want to paint Tywin in a bad light ( :ack: ), they could've added some stuff to his interactions with Arya, him saying how there are some things he regrets ( :ack: ) and then after the reveal the viewer could've choosen to see it as if he regrets doing that to Tysha ( :ack: ). (btw, I find it interesting that Cersei, despite being evil, will most likely get a very tragic, Shakespearen death, while Tywin died in one of the most undignified ways) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Yes, that was Tyrion who did that, not Tywin. Who was sent by tywin to act in his stead though let's just agree to disagree this ain't a debate thread let's rant about season 5 bein crap instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay's 20 Good Men Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Who was sent by tywin to act in his stead though let's just agree to disagree this ain't a debate thread let's rant about season 5 bein crap instead. Yea but Tywin isn't a genius like a lot people think he is, and him sending Tyrion to be hand in his stead isn't proof that he is. But yes, we should stay on topic :P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGBeyondAsshai Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I wanted to see the magic. What's that on the Stark sigil, a direwolf, what is that all about, show. Tell the viewers, because who just tuning in this season would have a clue about that. I wanted Jon to whisper "Ghost" before he "died" just like I wanted Robb to whisper "Grey Wind," because that's what wargs do. And I wanted Jon to remember Arya, because she's the one he is closest to, all the way back to season 1, and say "Stick them with the pointy end." I will miss you, little sister. What happened to that? Instead Olly, the walking talking cliche who came out of nowhere meant more to Jon than Arya. And Arya missed him, too, in the books. He used to muss her hair and call her little sister, she missed him most of all, but on the show, Needle was revenge, not Jon Snow's smile. I wanted the Hound to say, "This thing about your mother" because he was trying to help, and for her to already know, because Nymeria knew. And she knew it was snowing in the Riverlands, too. And she was Cat, not Lanna, and she warged the cat, because Catelyn has a name. When Sansa thought about dying in the books, she remembered Lady, and there was the Hound, he was always right there, or in her thoughts and dreams when she thought of Lady, because "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" - that line was on the show, where is the follow up? Instead, after bending over backwards to force her to be raped while playing a minor character, she wasn't even Sansa long enough to visit Lady's grave. And Bran, why did they have to rush through his book story, too? Why did Littlefinger tell Lyanna's story instead of Meera? Why did they make it about him, imagine how he felt, and about kidnapping and rape, instead of the Knight of the Laughing Tree? And why paint Rhaegar this way, after all this time? Isn't it time to consider maybe there is more to the story? Wouldn't that be interesting, for Sansa, to consider that just might be a love story? This is not a minor thing, Starks and direwolves, it's about their identity, what could be more important. It's like they hate the Starks... What I think all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Cornered_Wolf Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I must be misremembering but I think not even that was his own idea. He was just approached by Frey and got lucky Lady Westerling was always loyal to keep her daughter from getting pregnant. Tywin got very lucky with the Battle of the Fords as well. One of the things I dislike about the show is it makes it seem like Tywin decided to head to King's Landing as if he had some great tactical foresight as opposed to getting beat back by Edmure (of all people) and having it work to his advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ainara S Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 But, but... Blackfish is not stereotypically gay! Therefore he can't be gay! They'd either have to make him love weddings and fashion and/or be afraid of the sight of blood, or he'd be the straightest macho guy ever. Oh, if they wanted to make Blackfish gay in the show, we would already know. His first scene would probably have been him fucking some random squire. Or second scene, if we're generous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Oh, if they wanted to make Blackfish gay in the show, we would already know. His first scene would probably have been him fucking some random squire. Or second scene, if we're generous. Or both scenes and olyvar ain't a squire he's a lowborn prostitute who became a squire to the heir of the Tyrells using his "skill" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toth Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 Oh, if they wanted to make Blackfish gay in the show, we would already know. His first scene would probably have been him fucking some random squire. Or second scene, if we're generous. Likely both. And most scenes thereafter. Why change the location if you have it? Damn, ninja'd by a Baratheon. :ph34r: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted July 29, 2015 Share Posted July 29, 2015 I came across this interview again and thought it would be relevant to this thread. Here is a reminder of what GRRM said about Tyrion- source: https://web.archive.org/web/19991013131915/http://cyberhaven.com/books/sciencefiction/martin.html :lmao: This in no way translates on the show. It surprises me that he called him the villain. Even in the books that isn't really true. Certainly not as of CoK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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