Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Ragnorak]

On the mismatched armor, I think it is a contrast to Tywin. Tyrion isn't fighting this battle as "a Lannister." He isn't a lordling given a command by birthright like we see in the prologue with Waymar Royce. He is placed in the vanguard (the most dangerous assignment) as a soldier under the command of Gregor. This really places him as an equal to the Mountain Clans and probably serves more than anything else to earn him their personal respect. This is a very Jon-like thing (not entirely sure we should call it a choice) and seems to fall under the category of not asking your men to do anything you are not willing to do yourself. In this sense he is earning their respect and not buying it. It is very Stark-like and distinctly unLannister. Even though I like butterbumps earlier take better, this makes his looking for Robb across the battlefield seeking out his equal.

He also first earned Bronn's respect by fighting along side him as a "grunt' as well.

[butterbumps!]

Tyrion IX

overview

This chapter takes place inside Tywin’s “war room.” A courier from the lines of battle gives a report of what transpired. We learn that Robb’s army had routed the Lannister forces in the riverlands. Tywin had been marching his company at a grueling pace, believing he had a chance of beating Robb to Riverrun, leading Tyrion to muse on the fact that this death march was all for naught. It also becomes clear that the previous battle led by Roose was something of a feint: this was the main theater.

Jaime’s party had been periodically attacked by “brigands,” a guise to lure Jaime into responding. Jaime underestimated the nature of these “mock raids,” so that when he set out to deal with them, he was ambushed by the Stark’s main army, which was led by the Blackfish and Robb himself. The Lannister forces around Riverrun were effectively destroyed, and the Tully captives imprisoned in the Lannister camp were liberated. Two thousand men in the company of a Tyroshi sellsword, not only stopped fighting for the Lannisters, but actually joined the Starks. It would appear the Lannisters have no hope of holding Riverrun, as Stark and Tully are now a unified force.

Tywin’s men discuss options. Some suggest suing for peace, but Tyrion speaks up and posits that this is no longer a possibility: that the Starks are winning, and that the Lannisters lost all leverage with the death of Ned. Tywin remains silent throughout the discussion, but suddenly orders everyone out of the room save for Kevan and Tyrion. Tywin says he’s of the same mind as Tyrion regarding the impossibility of peace, but reveals a new variable: Renly declared himself king. Cersei has implored Tywin to march toward KL to subvert this threat, but Tywin has other plans: He will take his army to Harrenhal and send Tyrion to KL to rule. He also puts Kevan in charge of overseeing Lorch, Gregor and Hoat’s destruction of the riverlands. Tywin forbids Tyrion from bringing “the whore” to court, so of course the chapter ends with Tyrion’s informing Shae he’s going to bring her to KL.

observations

• In LtL, Blisscraft noted that boars seem to symbolize death in ASOIAF (like oranges in a Coppola film), as well as regime changes. Here, news of Jaime’s defeat is told by a Crakehall courier, clad in a bloodied boar sigil.
  
• Tywin’s sense of humor? Tywin refers to Varys as “that cockless wonder.” Maybe it’s my puerile sense of humor acting up, but I always find it outrageously funny that “stoic” Tywin makes this quip, which I’d think is more in line with something Tyrion would say. It occurs to me that perhaps Tyrion is even more like his father than imagined, that perhaps Tywin does possess a real sense of humor, and represses it for the sake of appearances. Notably, he scorns Tyrion for making japes, and I wonder if perhaps Tywin’s overt hatred of jests has more to do with cultivating a serious and imposing image that belies a more lighthearted take on things that he finds a sign of weakness. Anyway, “cockless wonder” ( :lmao: )
  
• Short list of things that make Tywin tick:
  

Joffrey, who Tywin believes is on a one way street to regicide

Being “commanded” by his daughter

Not keeping appropriate distance with one’s “dogs”

Dismissing Selmy, who is a testimonial to one’s brand

Raising butchers to nobility

the existence of Stannis

“jackanapes” in the council (here I thought Jon had that monopoly at the Wall, lol).

Analysis

On Gregor

Gregor’s answer to scouts who don’t see ambushes is to rip out their eyes. Tywin looks at Gregor as he viciously gives this advice with a glimmer of gold in his eye. Tyrion cannot decide whether he thought Tywin approves of this or is disgusted by it. Personally, I think it’s both simultaneously. Tywin wants the ends that this sort of practice produces, but I think he believes himself above the execution of this sort of carnal desecration.

Later, Tywin tells Kevan he wants the riverlands destroyed, authorizing rapine by Gregor, Lorch and Hoat, and suggesting that Tyrion’s wildlings might want a part of that fun, too. When Tyrion says he prefers to keep them with him, Tywin demands that he keeps them reined in- he doesn’t want the rapine happening in KL. I think this is implicitly suggesting just how much of Gregor’s “good works” are under direct authority of Tywin, i.e. Tywin is actually responsible for all of Gregor’s indulgences.

“Better than you, you chinless craven”

I think Tyrion’s analysis of the Lannister position, as well as his meta-analysis of the meeting is quite revealing.

Tyrion is immediately defensive when Harys Swyft criticizes Jaime’s performance, thinking of some rather amusing, but unvoiced insults. When Kevan explains the dynamics of Riverrun’s geography, Tyrion thinks on how calmly Kevan is able to explain the situation, something that Tyrion feels he wouldn’t be able to himself.

When the courier informs the men that Lord Brax is dead after having launched a shoddy raft in the black of night to attack while wearing heavy plate, Tyrion thinks on what an absolute fool he was. The courier tried to call this “gallantry,” but Tyrion thinks, “if this is so would take cowardice every time. wonder if Lord Brax had felt especially gallant as the weight of his steel pulled him under the black water.”

Tyrion periodically looks over to gauge his father’s reaction to all of this. Thus far, Tywin has remained completely silent. Tyrion thinks on how Tywin’s habit of waiting for others to speak first is one that he admires and wishes he could cultivate himself. Yet, he realizes that something is off, as this silence is more egregious than Tywin’s usual custom. He also notes that small beads of sweat start to form as the men offer increasingly useless counsel despite Tywin’s remaining absolutely motionless.

Tyrion speaks up suddenly, when some of the men bring up the idea of peace. In fact, he throws his glass of wine against the wall to command attention, relieve angst and to underscore the futility of such a plan. He refutes all of the suggestions of the others using a mixture of sarcasm and sound logic. Shortly after this meeting, we learn that Tyrion inadvertently spoke with Tywin’s voice; these were precisely the pragmatic issues that Tywin was thinking himself.

“They have my son”

The “news reel” portion of the evening is bookended by Tywin’s proclamation, “They have my son.” I think this is meant to be understood as self-evident justification for Tywin’s righteousness, and an extreme insult to House Lannister. That an enemy force captured Jaime is out of line, a great disgrace for a Lannister, inconceivably outrageous. As we discussed, I do not believe that this has anything to do with love as such, so much as an insult to the Lannister brand.

Tywin clears the others out and speaks openly with Kevan and Tyrion, even offering his son his own cup of wine. Tywin has something of a tirade with regard to his thoughts on the follies at KL, speaking of Joffrey with a look of “distaste” as Tyrion notes. Tyrion attempts to defuse his father’s anger by pointing out that at Joff’s age he had “committed a few follies of my own,” to which Tywin responds: “I suppose we ought to be grateful that he has not yet married a whore.”

Ok, I think Tywin’s response was cold and nasty, but I have to question what Tyrion was really expecting to happen. Tyrion is enraged by this and considers throwing glass number 2 at his father. But why on earth would Tyrion bring up his “folly?” As though Tywin would find it remotely funny even after the passage of time?

Tywin continues his tirade, explaining how dire the Lannister situation is in the riverlands and the problems the Baratheon brothers pose. He informs Tyrion that he will go to KL and rule competently, while Tywin will reform his host at Harrenhal. Tywin has many choice words regarding the way things are being run in KL, and takes particular umbrage at Slynt’s appointment of Harrenhall—“that was the seat of kings!” On Sandor’s position in the KG, Tywin makes it clear that “dogs” should be fed under the table, not “beside you on the high bench,” which speaks to the idea that Tywin sees both Cleganes as mindless, brutal brutes (and is a comment on their low births). He finally gives Tyrion explicit instructions to start beheading any of the counselors who are playing Joffrey false.

“You are my son”

Tywin tells Tyrion, “I thought you were the one made for motley, but it would appear I was wrong.” Tyrion initially takes it as praise, which I think it is, but it implies that Tywin now considers another of his children to be a fool. I think he sees the fool in Cersei due to Joffrey’s recent indulgences, but there’s more than this. When Tyrion asks Tywin why he’s to go to KL and do this over someone else, Tywin says, “You are my son.” Now Tyrion understands that this uncharacteristic display is because Tywin has written Jaime off as dead. Tyrion is his leftover. In light of this revelation, I see the motley comment more as a way of buttering Tyrion up to take the position graciously than genuine praise.

Tyrion feels shock, outrage and anger at these words, which, said by anyone else might be heartwarming. I think it’s anger for Tywin’s write-off of Jaime, whom Tyrion loves, as well as anger that he’d been “played” by his father; just when he thinks he’s earning his father’s respect, this illusion is shattered. Still, he sits there silently for a moment, and I think part of him is actually pleased with this new development.

Lastly, Twyin commands him not to bring his “whore” to court. After a while, Tywin returns to his chambers, cups Shae and tells her that they’re going to KL. It’s a form of rebellion, but I believe that in light of Tywin’s subtle manipulation of Tyrion here that this is one significant way Tyrion can fulfill the duty his father outlined on his own terms.

ETA: thanx Axrendale for that correction.

[evita mgfs]

I am going to be joining the re-read, but after reading a few posts - maybe I won't. You posters are insightful - and argue your points with clear evidence.

I have not read the first thread yet, but if the boar from Homer's Odyssey has not been mentioned, give a direwolf yip. :ack:

[Fire Eater]

I think the fool in motley Tywin was referring to was Joffrey.

Nice post by the way, butterbumps!

[evita mgfs]

Here's my contribution - don't laugh. I am trying.

Okay – here goes nothing – but in regards to what I missed, may I offer up similarities in Homer’s epic hero Odysseus and Martin’s epic dwarf Tyrion, for Odysseus was not the most handsome, or most muscular, or the tallest of the long-haired Achaeans in Homer’s Iliad [misplaced my Fagel’s – no, here it is under Shades of Grey – kidding] :

During the Teichoskopia, “Helen, the daughter descended of Zeus, spoke then in answer: ‘This one is Laertes’ son, resourceful Odysseus, / who grew up in the country, rough though it be, of Ithaka, / to know every manner of shiftiness and crafty counsels’” (III. 199-202).

Sound like a dwarf we know?

In the speech of Antenor, which follows, he validates Helen, but adds much and more, including Odysseus’ physical appearance, overall demeanor, but most importantly, how other men underestimated him because of his looks – but when they heard him speak [like when the Phantom of the Opera hears Christine sing . . . ], they are mesmerized:

“ ‘Surely this word [ words are wind] you have spoken, my lady [Helen], can be no falsehood. / Once in the days before brilliant Odysseus came here, / with warlike Menelaus [Robert, Jaime], and their embassy was for your sake [Lyanna/Rhaegar issue]. / To both of these I gave in my halls kind entertainment [laws of hospitality, one of a 1000 and one] / and I learned the natural way of both, they and their close counsels. / Now when these were set before the Trojans assembled / and stood up, / Menelaus was bigger by his broad shoulders / but Odysseus was the more lordly when were seated [Tyrion’s size doesn’t matter when he sits]. / Now before all when both of them spun their speech and their counsels, Menelaus indeed spoke rapidly, in few words / but exceedingly lucid, since he was no long speaker / not one who wasted his words though he was only a young man. / But when that other drove to his feet, resourceful Odysseus, he would just stand and stare down, eyes fixed on the ground beneath him, / nor would he gesture with the staff backward and forward, but hold it / clutched far in front of him, like any man who knows nothing [Jon Snow]. Yes, you would call him a sullen man and a fool likewise [Tyrion]. / But when he let the great voice go from his chest, and the words came out [Tyrion] / drifting down like the winter snows [starky], then no other mortal / man beside could stand up against Odysseus [Tyrion]. Then we / wondered less beholding Odysseus’ outward appearance [like Tyrion is oft misread and underestimated because of his appearance]’” (III. 204-224).

I hope you can see where I am going – and I typed this all out before realizing a translation is probably online and I could have cut and pasted – Dah.

Now – I know translations differ, so if you looked up Fagel's, his translation may be more lucid and readable, but the ideas are the same. Sorry if my bracketed inserts are lazy analysis, but I do not want to spend lots of time if this was covered.

So now I better read the thread through. :read: :read: :read:

[Tagganaro]

Perfect review as always BB!

observations

• In LtL, Blisscraft noted that boars seem to symbolize death in ASOIAF (like oranges in a Coppola film), as well as regime changes. Here, news of Jaime’s defeat is told by a Crakehall courier, clad in a bloodied boar sigil.
  
• Tywin’s sense of humor? Tywin refers to Varys as “that cockless wonder.” Maybe it’s my puerile sense of humor acting up, but I always find it outrageously funny that “stoic” Tywin makes this quip, which I’d think is more in line with something Tyrion would say. It occurs to me that perhaps Tyrion is even more like his father than imagined, that perhaps Tywin does possess a real sense of humor, and represses it for the sake of appearances. Notably, he scorns Tyrion for making japes, and I wonder if perhaps Tywin’s overt hatred of jests has more to do with cultivating a serious and imposing image that belies a more lighthearted take on things that he finds a sign of weakness. Anyway, “cockless wonder” ( :lmao: )
  
• Short list of things that make Tywin tick:
  

Joffrey, who Tywin believes is on a one way street to regicide

Being “commanded” by his daughter

Not keeping appropriate distance with one’s “dogs”

Dismissing Selmy, who is a testimonial to one’s brand

Raising butchers to nobility

the existence of Stannis

“jackanapes” in the council (here I thought Jon had that monopoly at the Wall, lol).

I love these observations. I love how Tywin just seems to be so irked by Stannis in particular. I love to imagine some of their interactions, with Stannis just grinding his teeth to oblivion and Tywin probably finding one of the only people in the world he can't cow with his stare.

I do find Tywin to have sort of a sneaky sense of humor, but yes I agree that he would never show it as his whole life's work seems to be some sort of overcompensation for the excesses of Tytos.

Analysis

On Gregor

Gregor’s answer to scouts who don’t see ambushes is to rip out their eyes. Tywin looks at Gregor as he viciously gives this advice with a glimmer of gold in his eye. Tyrion cannot decide whether he thought Tywin approves of this or is disgusted by it. Personally, I think it’s both simultaneously. Tywin wants the ends that this sort of practice produces, but I think he believes himself above the execution of this sort of carnal desecration.

Later, Tywin tells Kevan he wants the riverlands destroyed, authorizing rapine by Gregor, Lorch and Hoat, and suggesting that Tyrion’s wildlings might want a part of that fun, too. When Tyrion says he prefers to keep them with him, Tywin demands that he keeps them reined in- he doesn’t want the rapine happening in KL. I think this is implicitly suggesting just how much of Gregor’s “good works” are under direct authority of Tywin, i.e. Tywin is actually responsible for all of Gregor’s indulgences.

I think Tywin 100% approves of Gregor's method in particular and his overall methods in general. Tywin is really one of the most sickest characters in ASOIAF in my opinion. I've also always found his whole innocence routine "oh poor me, how was I supposed to know Gregor would rape Elia, he surprised me and I forgot to mention not to do it to him" to be ridiculous to the point of laughable. In general, this guy is sick and you can be sure who approves of everything Gregor and Amory Lorch do.

“Better than you, you chinless craven”

Snip

I love this whole scene. Fantastic in both the book and the show, quite possibly my favorite scene the show has done to date. I find Tyrion's relationship/admiration for Jaime (and vice versa) to be really touching. To Tyrion, pretty much anything and everything is mock-worthy except Jaime. It shows how deep their affection is for each other, and I'm quite sure from what we know that Jaime is probably the only person ever to treat Tyrion with affection and respect and admiration.

“They have my son”

snip

I'm torn about whether this is genuine "love" for Jaime or more a generalized insult to house Lannister as well. I do think from what we know of Tywin (and his relationship with his children), Jaime is probably the only one he truly respects and possibly even likes, so that might play into his overwrought (for Tywin at least) reaction here. It does seem to me to be a rare bit of an emotional display from him. We know how disappointed he is with both Tyrion and Cersei, whereas he typically reserves any and all praise for Jaime. So I think there is a bit of "love", or something approximating it as I'm not sure such a sociopath can really love anyone, being expressed by Tywin here.

“You are my son”

Since it's one of my favorite quotes to repeat, I'm again reminded of Genna's observation that Tyrion is really the only one who is truly Tywin's son. They both have such a grasp of politics and what Tywin would grudgingly call "low cunning". Such a powerful scene when Tyrion finally gets something close to respect from Tywin. I think for the first time in his life, Tywin actually views Tyrion in a useful light and thinks he can be of help to the cause. Just very powerful.

Also like to add that I tend to find the argument that "Shae is some sort of Tywin spy on Tyrion" to be very convincing when looked at in light of Tywin's proclamation "You will not bring that whore to court". I mean, come on, Tywin has to know that telling Tyrion that will only resolve Tyrion's desire to take her to court. I sometimes like to view that as Tywin's "bait" to get Tyrion to bite on Shae.

Snip

Very interesting post. I've never viewed Oddyseus as anything like Tyrion but you do point out some similarities. Very interesting...

And welcome to this thread by the way. It's always a pleasure to read your posts :cheers: .

[Winterfellian]

@evita mgs, welcome!

Butterbumps, thanks for another great review!

“jackanapes” in the council (here I thought Jon had that monopoly at the Wall, lol).

LOL Every time I see the word jackanape I remember you! In the best sense of course :)

For the record Jon still holds the monopoly as his jackanapes are definitely the worst kind. I mean, an army of pigs! No one in the small council can top that

Now for Tyrion...

Something that painted him in a positive way in my eyes was this paragraph:

You have given him up for lost he thought. You bloody bastard. You think of him as dead, so am all you have left.

I think Tyrion's complex feelings for his brother really shine in this chapter. He knows his brother not only lost Riverrun but got himself captured as well by a Stark yet we don't see the typical cynical criticism we might expect from Tyrion had it been any other person other than Jaime. To the contrary he seems very angry that his brother is badmouthed by incompetents. About the phrase above, given how much Tyrion struggles to get recognition from Tywin is a credit to his feelings for his brother that he's angry at Tywin's reaction. He doesn't delude himself thinking that maybe now that Jaime's out of the picture he can become Tywin's golden son. To the contrary he desires to physically harm Tywin for this comment. Tyrion is not ready to give up on Jaime and he's genuinely angry that Tywin gives him up for lost. While Tywin's anger at Jaime's capture seem to derive from the offense committed against House Lannister, Tyrion's derives from the fact that his brother got captured. Despite all the things they have in common I think this is something that really sets them apart.

Another thing that struck me was the following:

Why me? He asked. Why not a bigger man?

TBH I find this line very sad. Given how much the awareness of his shortcomings intensifies whenever he's in Tywin's presence is not surprising but I think this is the first time he vocally and outrightly expresses it so to Tywin's face. So far Tyrion has expressed his knowledge that his father doesn't value his merits on account of him being a dwarf mostly through jokes (this is one way we differ Jaime and I) but this is the first time he expresses in a way that doesn't come off as a jape to which Tywin of course reacts negatively. So for the first time Tyrion acknowledge the manner in a serious manner and got a seemingly positive response: You are my son.

However Tyrion realizes that even though those are the words he's been wanting to hear the meaning behind them remain the same as ever. What I think he fails to see at this moment is the bigger picture-that no matter how he asks for Tywin's approval; no matter if he's being a joker or a serious person the answer is always going to be the same: rejection.

[butterbumps!]

snip!

Welcome to the thread, Evita! We hadn't really discussed all of the mythological significance of boars in LtL, so it's not old territory, don't worry. I hadn't thought of the Odysseus/ Tyrion parallel, so that's really interesting. (Though the vortex that is the riverlands did strike me as similar to the absurdly complicated tribulations of Odysseus' crew)

I love these observations. I love how Tywin just seems to be so irked by Stannis in particular. I love to imagine some of their interactions, with Stannis just grinding his teeth to oblivion and Tywin probably finding one of the only people in the world he can't cow with his stare.

I'm not part of the "Stannis brigade" on the forum, so it is from a position of cool objectivity that I say Stannis would own Tywin in a stare off/ battle of wits.

Glad you brought up that line, Winterfellian. I also find it incredibly sad.

[Ragnorak]

At the very end of our last chapter when Tyrion points out that Tywin could have told him that his plan was for the van to collapse he says"

I am not inclined to trust my plans to a man who consorts with sellswords and savages.

We go from this to You are my son, not to mention "Oh by the way please go and be essentially King, and by all means take that sellsword and those savages with you."

What's changed? Tyrion pointing out that there can be no peace after Ned's beheading can't have suddenly turned him into a genius in Tywin's eyes. There could probably be a peace if Tywin really wanted one, just not one on terms remotely favorable to the Lannisters. This is an ultimate "no half measures" moment. Tywin has basically decided that inflicting a Rains of Castamere on House Stark is more important than Jaime's life. He's willing to embrace Tyrion as a son and write off Jaime if that's what it takes. Quite the contrast to Cat's Jaime choice.

[Axrendale]

@ butterbumps!,

Brilliant overview and analysis. I'll have thoughts to post later.

Just one small correction though: it was an unnamed Tyroshi who was commanding the sellswords in Jaime's army and who struck his banners and defected during the Stark attack, not Ser Forley Prestor (feeding back into the theme that one should not "consort" with sellswords). Ser Forley and his two thousand men were stationed on the side of Riverrun that did not come under attack - when he saw that the battle was lost he retreated with them in good order and (we learn later) went to assume command of the Golden Tooth, which he held until ASOS, after which he joined forces with Daven Lannister to return to the Riverlands and initiate the second siege of Riverrun. At the end of AFFC, Jaime put him in command of the force that was to escort Edmure Tully and Jeyne Westerling back to Casterly Rock.

[Lummel]

Thank you Butterbumps! Welcome Evita!

Hmm. Lots of good stuff, although I see you use 'tick' in a different sense on the other side of the Atlantic!

This is Tyrion's POV and it's interesting to see that emotionally he is on a knife edge here, slipping from one side to another and cutting himself on the worst interpretation of his father's words each time which I think makes clear as Winterfellian puts it how intense that need for approval is. Equally though what response was Tyrion expecting when he compared Joffrey's idiocy to his own?

But I take a different view of the

"Why not a ... bigger man?" Lord Tywin rose abruptly. "You are my son."

it seems to me that for Tywin there isn't a bigger man than his son, or at least (because he is no less slippery and cunning than Tyrion) that is the impression that he wants to give. Tywin is an extremely demanding figure, his expectations are high, but at council Tyrion (mostly) meets them and earns the right to remain when the non-Lannisters are dismissed. However I think Tyrion's need for Tywin's love is so great that even if Tywin were to have a personality transformation there would be nothing he could say or do that Tyrion would interpret in a positive light, emotionally I think he has schooled himself to expect the worst and to look for the negative and the judgemental in everything Tywin says.

I think we can see Tywin-Tyrion here in the same light as Tywin-Gregor in this scene. Tywin knows there is a tool for each job and success requires choosing the right tool. Gregor, Lorch and Hoat to devastate the Riverlands, Tyrion to rein in Joffrey and Cersei.

Speaking of Gregor I loved this:

And dismissing Selmy, where was the sense in that? Yes, the man was old, but the name of Barristan the Bold still has meaning in the realm. He lent honour to any man he served. Can anyone say the same of the Hound? You feed your dog bones under the table, you do not seat him beside you on the high bench.

and this from the man who has Gregor Clegane at his council!

Notice that Selmy lends honour to the person he serves. It's like a banking transaction. This is a very calculated way of looking at it, a world away from chivalry.

Finally the sellswords who change sides - it reminds me of Tyrion VI and the conversation between Tyrion and Bronn. Tyrion was serious in his belief that Bronn can be bought, but there are limits to what you can buy. There are no old bold sellswords afterall ;). Loyalty isn't just a financial transaction. There's a lesson there that the Lannisters need to be aware of.

[Natalie_S]

After the hardships of the long relentless drive south, the prospect of even a single night in an inn had cheered Tyrion mightily . . . though he rather wished it had not been this inn again, with all its memories.

I think really is a warning of Tyrion's sometimes unreliable narration and how we shouldn't take everything he says at face value: in the previous chapter he was so indifferent at all the deaths that he could make jokes with corpses and good beer-brewing skills wasted.

Now though, he casually acknowledges that he wish he didn't have to go back to the inn: why wouldn't he, if he really was indifferent to everything that happened there, or even thought that was deserved?

Also, apparently he can' stop looking at the body everytime he passes by:

From the window, he could see the gibbet his father had erected in the yard. The innkeep’s body turned slowly on its rope whenever the night wind gusted.

He had been upstairs, enjoying the comfort of a featherbed and the warmth of Shae’s body beside him...

We note here that Tyrion at this point doesn't need to hide his, er, work relationship with Shae, he's openly sharing his room with her. The journey is also quite long, and it seems that weeks, even perhaps months have passed from the battle. That could be the reason why Tywin later tells him not to bring her to court, he sees that Tyrion's starting to get affectionate.

Lord Tywin was oft quiet in council, preferring to listen before he spoke, a habit Tyrion himself tried to emulate.

Tyrion often openly says that he tries to emulate his father: this is perhaps the first explicit mention, but I think that in ACOK it's stated other times (I especially recall the episode in which Cersei bring Alayaya and all the times he tries to behave as Tywin would).

“Joff’s only a boy,” Tyrion pointed out. “At his age, I committed a few follies of my own.”

Contrarily to what one might think, Tyrion speaks quite often and very openly about his teenage"marriage gate (for example Cersei and he will talk about it at the Council in ACOK, while discussing the episode in which Joffrey has Sansa beaten by the KG).

Another example of armouring himself in his weaknesses?

He's not quite ready for the consequences though, because when Tywin says the obvious and totally expected line about whores, Tyrion gets so mad that thinks about throwing the wine in his face. Another example of duality: Tyrion wishes he was so indifferent and he could talk about all the Tysha affair without problems, but really he's not.

We see also that here he's ready to justify Joffrey's recklessness because of his young age, which perhaps helps also understanding the earlier slap episode: for him Joff is just a boy, who still needs to be educated.

As to Varys, the "cockless wonder", I see it as an example of Tywin's disdain for everything that is freakish, ridiculous or grotesque.

Later also Tyrion will compare himself to Varys, in their being "halfmen" in different ways.

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still.

This reminds me a bit of the Arrested Development scene in which Michael says "Dad's always played us off each other." and Gob: "Dad always said that was your fault."

Tywin's strategy is always to pin one sibling against the other: he doesn't go and tells Cersei off himself, he sends Tyrion to do it. He knows there will be frictions, but not only he doesn't care, but seems to profit from this strategy.

Also, he smooths Tyrion up trying to make him believe he's the "golden boy" now, at Jaime's expenses. This doesn't work though, because he underestimates Tyrion's loyalty towards Jaime.

Also, this "you are my son" is very sybilline: is it a praise and some kind of recognition towards Tyrion or another reminder of how he's only valuable because he's a Lannister?

He doesn't say "I'm sending you to KL because you're smart and I know you'll be able to handle this delicate situation in a good way", but only that he's his son.

“I have a mind to take you to King’s Landing, sweetling,” he whispered.

Until the end of ASOS, everytime that Tyrion defies his father, he always does it in a somewhat childish way.

When Tywin said "don't bring your whore to court", he understood perfectly well what he meant, but he brings her to KL under the excuse that "hey, you said don't bring her to court, not don't bring her to the city!".

Also when he says that he doesn't want to consummate his marriage with Sansa, he doesn't say "I don't want to do it, full stop" but "Yeah, I'll do it later, when she's older... just wait".

The whole scene has a "do your homework, Tyrion-yes, i'll do it... later, not just yet" vibe.

[Blisscraft]

Wonderful, BB! Welcome, Evita! Great posts everyone! Where's that like button, doggoneit! :box:

About Gregor taking the eyes of the scouts who failed to see - Sounds like the Weeper, doesn't it? A little "out vile jelly." Taking someone's eyes sends such a message and gives a whole new meaning to an "eye for an eye."

[Lummel]

no eating in this chapter though, just some wine drinking.

But in line with the theme of conviviality, community and acceptance it is a very significant glass of wine. In Tyrion VII we saw Tyrion leave his father's table - he doesn't want to eat or drink with him after the 'insult' of having to serve under Gregor's command in the van, but here Tywin gives Tyrion his own goblet of wine to drink. Is it too much to say that this is like communion? It certainly illustrates the change in the tone of their relationship at that moment.

[Ragnorak]

no eating in this chapter though, just some wine drinking.

But in line with the theme of conviviality, community and acceptance it is a very significant glass of wine. In Tyrion VII we saw Tyrion leave his father's table - he doesn't want to eat or drink with him after the 'insult' of having to serve under Gregor's command in the van, but here Tywin gives Tyrion his own goblet of wine to drink. Is it too much to say that this is like communion? It certainly illustrates the change in the tone of their relationship at that moment.

Tyrion's gesture of shattering his wine cup makes this gesture an offer of peace. But Tywin has not touched his wine. There is still no sharing involved. It is also symbolic of him writing off Jaime. He has passed the cup to Tyrion. I also like the bit of Tywin crushing even the shattered pieces of the wine cup under his boot.

though he rather wished it had not been this inn again, with all its memories

The innkeep’s body turned slowly on its rope whenever the night wind gusted. Her flesh had grown as thin and ragged as Lannister hopes.

His first trip the notion of returning to this Inn provoked a thought that perhaps the gods were good after all. Originally Tyrion viewed this body as a symbol of Lannister power. Things have certainly changed.

“Joff’s only a boy,” Tyrion pointed out. “At his age, I committed a few follies of my own.”

His father gave him a sharp look. “I suppose we ought to be grateful that he has not yet married a whore.”

I took this as Tyrion looking for some kind of recognition, acceptance. or absolution from his father. I think he wanted some ackowledgement from Tywin that he has transcended the follies of his youth in his father's eyes.

“Sorry, my lord,” the messenger said. “Lord Brax was clad in plate-and-mail when his raft overturned. He was very gallant.”

He was a fool, Tyrion thought, swirling his cup and staring down into the winy depths.

This gesture reminded me of Tyrion staring into the depths of the wine class at the Purple Wedding before spilling the contents.

He loved his brother, but he would not have wanted to be with him in the Whispering Wood for all the gold in Casterly Rock.

This is a very sellsword like evaluation. It is also an interesting acknowledgement by Tyrion that at this point he isn't wholly motivated by either love or money.

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still.

How very very Tywin-like. This is exactly the kind of rage Tywin experienced at the news of Jaime's capture and he had the identical reaction.

[Lummel]

...There could probably be a peace if Tywin really wanted one, just not one on terms remotely favorable to the Lannisters. This is an ultimate "no half measures" moment. Tywin has basically decided that inflicting a Rains of Castamere on House Stark is more important than Jaime's life. He's willing to embrace Tyrion as a son and write off Jaime if that's what it takes. Quite the contrast to Cat's Jaime choice.

I like that. I seem to recall that it is this man's daughter who says that when you play the game of thrones you either win or you die. There are no half measures at all perhaps for the Lannisters.

...About Gregor taking the eyes of the scouts who failed to see - Sounds like the Weeper, doesn't it? A little "out vile jelly." Taking someone's eyes sends such a message and gives a whole new meaning to an "eye for an eye."

King Lear, dear yes, Old Gloucester isn't it who gets blinded? Hmm a weak king and scheming bastards...

No half measures for Gregor Clegane either.

...His first trip the notion of returning to this Inn provoked a thought that perhaps the gods were good after all. Originally Tyrion viewed this body as a symbol of Lannister power. Things have certainly changed...

It's a nice moment, like Christmas 1914, Tyrion realises they are settling into a long war and not one that will be over by winter with one sharp victory over an impetuous boy.

I don't know what the technical term would be but Tyrion here is reading his own emotional state into his surroundings.

[DreamSongs]

Lord Tywin rose abruptly. “You are my son.”

That was when he knew. You have given him up for lost, he thought. You bloody bastard, you think Jaime’s good as dead, so I’m all you have left. Tyrion wanted to slap him, to spit in his face, to draw his dagger and cut the heart out of him and see if it was made of old hard gold, the way the smallfolks said. Yet he sat there, silent and still.

This reminds me a bit of the Arrested Development scene in which Michael says "Dad's always played us off each other." and Gob: "Dad always said that was your fault."

Tywin's strategy is always to pin one sibling against the other: he doesn't go and tells Cersei off himself, he sends Tyrion to do it. He knows there will be frictions, but not only he doesn't care, but seems to profit from this strategy.

Also, he smooths Tyrion up trying to make him believe he's the "golden boy" now, at Jaime's expenses. This doesn't work though, because he underestimates Tyrion's loyalty towards Jaime.

(Quietly enters thread).

I always viewed Tywin as pragmatic in advancing House Lannister, but I never really thought about him playing Jaime and Tyrion (or Cersei for that matter) off of eachother. I'm not so sure Tyrion's emotional response is out of loyalty to Jaime; seems more like a gut response to years of Tywin's ill-concealed disdain.

[Lyanna Stark]

Apart from the very interesting Tywin - Tyrion dynamics in this chapter, we also has some more info on Gregor and Sandor Clegane and especially how they are viewed by their highest boss, Tywin Lannister. Even if both Gregor and Sandor have rather large parts to play in the story, we see that in Tywin's eyes, they are just low born tools to employ as needed. But you do not "feed them at the table". The distinction in rank is crystal clear from Tywin.

It's interesting here that he views Sandor and Gregor as dishonourable brutes, and thought the Hound can't replace Barristan. But Tywin himself has promoted the type of behaviour that made the Clegane brothers infamous instead of famous, like Barristan. Tywin is ok with using brutes and he relies on them to the point of creating them and enabling them, but he prefers someone like Barristan around, due to his honour. This is a rather odd dichotomy. The realpolitik Tywin creates creatures like Gregor, Sandor and Amory Lorch, but the honour of House Lannister wants someone like Barristan the Bold to support them?

With regards to the Barristan debacle, Tywin seems loathe to blame Cersei for it, and instead puts the blame on the "jackanapes", i.e. Petyr Baelish, Varys and Maester Pycelle. A bit unfair here since Cersei was the driving force behind sacking Barristan, yet apparently Tywin wants the blame removed from House Lannister. He's ok with comparing Cersei unfavourably to Tyrion and Jaime, but not compared to the "jackanapes". Even there the Lannisters should be superior.

Regarding drinking and eating:

Is it symbolic that Tyrion first drinks out of Tywin's own cup, and then wants to throw it in his face? Tyrion accepts Tywin's deal, but afterwards he wants to throw it back into Tywin's face?

Tyrion also symblises what he thinks of the Lannister "jackanapes" when he throws his goblet on the floor, I think.

Interesting to meet Harys Swyft here too before he comes into full swing in AFFC and ADWD as Cersei's Master of Coins (and worthless as such, too).

[Lummel]

Welcome Lady Wendy!

...It's interesting here that he views Sandor and Gregor as dishonourable brutes, and thought the Hound can't replace Barristan. But Tywin himself has promoted the type of behaviour that made the Clegane brothers infamous instead of famous, like Barristan. Tywin is ok with using brutes and he relies on them to the point of creating them and enabling them, but he prefers someone like Barristan around, due to his honour. This is a rather odd dichotomy. The realpolitik Tywin creates creatures like Gregor, Sandor and Amory Lorch, but the honour of House Lannister wants someone like Barristan the Bold to support them?...

On Cersei's involvement in getting rid of Barristan - hold your horses and don't gallop so to a conclusion! I have reason to suspect that (due to having read ahead) that Cersei was more pawn here than player.

Yes this Gregor-Barristan dichotomy is interesting. So far I have a bare two thoughts. Firstly that maybe Tywin sees that there is a tool for every job and that if you want the riverlands devastated or a butcher's boy ridden down and chopped up then these dogs are just the job, but you reward them appropriately for their service, you don't put them in the kingsguard or make them nobles any more than you would put your saw or screwdriver up in a place of honour.

Alternatively lets go back to the mafia/organised crime metaphor. In which case King Joff is Mr Clean while Tywin organises the dirty work that keeps Joff in power. The use of savage dogs is appropriate to the enforcer, but not to the public face of the regime. Tywin is a bit like Bismarck here - kingly authority is like sausages and laws - nobody really wants to know how they are made!

[A wilding]

On Barristan's sacking, it does not really matter how much of the responsibility was Cersei's (and she must take some, as ultimately it could not have happened without her agreeing), Tywin is still shying away from putting the blame on House Lannister.

Also, Cersei made Harys Swyft Hand (!) on AFfC, though I think she did demote him in a later reshuffle.