Finding bits of LOTR influences in ASOIAF

[Lord Ben]

This thread makes no such claim that GRRM ripped off LOTR, and bases everything off it.

Nor did I if we're pointing out strawmen. I only said the thread has a lot of stretching and sarcastically said he ripped off LotR for having a wall in his book to make my point.

My issue isn't that there aren't parallels, it's when people preface the parallel with some version of "GRRM might be basing the white weirwoods on a white tree in LotR". When the only similarity is that they're white and that they're trees. Their symbolism, appearance, use, etc are all vastly different. The Weirwoods probably have more similarities with Treebeard in that they're ancient and have faces and are feared by many who don't understand their nature.

But I think between the two series of books you have several thousand pages of written word. It'd be unusual if there weren't similarities between some parts or another.

You could do the same with nearly any other book. My son now is reading Guardians of Ga'Hoole and I (sarcastically) think GRRM based Aegon on the main owl character there because both were removed from their home at a young age and raised by someone else with their own purposes in mind instead of the young child (or owl) deciding their own path.

[Frey family reunion]

Both series are heavily influenced by Norse mythology.

[Fire Eater]

@ Lord Ben

I know you were being sarcastic about the Wall.

I wasn't specifically saying that the weirwoods were a complete parallel to the White Tree. I was saying that the casting of the weirwoods into the fire for R'hllor was similar to the white tree being cast into the fire for Melkor. It was just in that one example that I compared white trees and weirwoods; in another I compare them to dragons.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The title says it clearly: "influences". Could also be "Inspiration". If I write a story about, dunno, boxers, and one of them is called Balboa Ali, I'm ripping off? Nah, just referencing, paying homage, whatever. Don't remember if GRRM is a Tolkien fan, but in a few interviews I've read of him he does mention him and he knows his Tolkien.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well I will say it even if many people disagree:

Rhaegar+Lyanna=Eol+Aredhel Ar-Feiniel

Aredhel like Lyanna enjoyed to ride and were free spirited and willful.

Eol like Rhaegar were great at one think: Eol was a skillful craftsman when Rhaegar with harp.

Both Eol and Rhaegar kidnap or lured Lyanna and Aredhel to stay with them and they had a son. Lyanna and Rhaegar Jon, Eol and Aredhel Maeglin. Both Eol and Rhaegar are responsible for their (Lyanna's and Aredhel's) deaths.

King Brandon Stark the Burner who burned his ships when his father was lost in sea and Robb who started a war for freeing Ned reminds me of the love that Feanor had for Finwe

[Nictarion]

I believe Martin likes LOTR and the beauty of its details, but the story is not at all similar.. Just because there are some details alike doesn't mean it influences in scenario..Imo Martin's whole idea of writing these books are breaking the prejudge on "good side - bad side" stuff.. But LOTR is full of it...

I agree. I dont find the the story's to be very similar. LOTR is very clearly good vs evil. ASOIAF has grey characters although some are pretty close to being pure evil Ramsey, Gregor,, etc...

[SeanF]

I think it's pretty clear in LOTR what is the difference between good and evil. Some forms of evil are clear-cut in ASOIAF (eg the behaviour of Ser Gregor and the Bloody Mummers, children being thrown to bears in fighting pits), and it's clear that some characters are irredeemably evil (such as Ramsay Bolton, Ser Gregor, Rorge and Biter etc.). There is, however, no clear-cut good or bad side in ASOIAF.

There are certainly grey characters in LOTR (eg Gollum, Denethor, Saruman, Boromir, even Frodo to an extent) but there are others who are unequivocally good (eg Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer). Whereas, in ASOIAF, even the best characters are at least light grey.

Had Martin written LOTR, I don't doubt that he'd have had Aragorn, Eomer, Gandalf massacring Sauron's men when their blood was up.

The Silmarillion, OTOH, is full of the sort of characters who inhabit ASOIAF. Turin Turambar, for example, is the greyest of the grey.

[Vargo Hoat's Teddy Bear]

Aragorn is descended from the Kings of Gondor, and Jon is descended from the Targaryen kings

u wot m8?

But i agree with the rest. I can think of quite a few but narrowing it down to a few direct influences would be the mass migration of civilisations due to war or natural disasters similar to elves. A lot of the influences mentioned above probably influenced Tolkien from some other text. As in Tolkien was influenced by epic texts like Beowulf and myths and in turn Martin was influenced by Tolkien

[Where Boars Glow]

I think you mean Samwise Gamgee...

No i was reffering to a completely seperate character. :P Thank god you were here to catch the possibility, otherwise folks may have been confused.

It's levvvioooooosaaaaa

[Fire Eater]

From Jon's Queen Consort

All that is gold does not glitter

At first he thought the bands around it were bronze, but when he moved closer he realized they were gold. Old gold, more brown than yellow

Not all gold shows the characteristics associated with it, just like not all things of value look it at first glance like Tyrion and Jon, and not all Targaryens, like Jon, have the characteristics associated with them, like silver-gold hair and violet eyes

Not all those who wander are lost;

Jon, Bran and other characters wander through beyond the Wall and other areas but aren't lost.

The old that is strong does not wither,

The Stark family and their legacy as well as Winterfell, which is part of that

Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

The place [Winterfell] had grown over the centuries like some monstrous tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

Wake dragons from stone

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Lightbringer during the Long Night

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

Ice was reforged into two blades: Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.

The crownless again shall be king. (JRRTolkien)

Jon

Also, when Aragorn became King he united the kingdoms of Gondor and the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. IF Jon becomes King he may unite the North with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

[Le Cygne]

Brienne as Eowyn. She could have said she feared 'A cage. To stay behind bars, until use and old age accept them, and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall or desire.' and of course, 'But no living man am I! You look upon a woman.' Jaime could be her Faramir of sorts...

[serme]

One of the castles on the Wall is called Oakenshield

And one of the Shield Islands :)

[Fire Eater]

Galadhriel had silver-gold hair like the Targaryens and other people of Valyrian heritage.

Tormund, Husband to Bears, could draw some inspiration from Beorn, a man who could assume the appearance of a bear, and could be generous and welcoming.

The tale of Hugor Hill having a crown made from seven stars is a nod to Elendil, the leader of the Faithful and the Crown of Gondor which had seven jewels set into it based on the seven stars.

[Ygrain]

Galadhriel had silver-gold hair like the Targaryens and other people of Valyrian heritage.

Tormund, Husband to Bears, could draw some inspiration from Beorn, a man who could assume the appearance of a bear, and could be generous and welcoming.

The tale of Hugor Hill having a crown made from seven stars is a nod to Elendil, the leader of the Faithful and the Crown of Gondor which had seven jewels set into it based on the seven stars.

Actually, Galadriel's hair is dark gold.

And, did nobody mention how both Jon and Aragorn are raised with special care in their relative's household, under a false name, ignorat of their true heritage?

ETA: I definitely like the Lyanna-Aredhel parallel, both were lead into an early grave by their wildness. I just hope that Jon doesn't turn into Maeglin :-)

[EricEmpire94]

Jon is hidden as a bastard at the very end of the civilized world because if people knew who he was he'd probably be stabbed.

Ouch, too soon :(

[Fire Eater]

Actually, Galadriel's hair is dark gold.

It's gold shot with silver. Look it up.

[Ygrain]

It's gold shot with silver. Look it up.

"They were clad wholly in white; and the hair of the Lady was of deep gold, and the hair of Lord Celeborn was of silver long and bright"

I have. Sadly, I know the translation better than the original, hence "dark" instead of "deep".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Galadhriel had silver-gold hair like the Targaryens and other people of Valyrian heritage.

Actually all Vanyar Elves have gold hair...when Noldor have black(and red kissed by fire)hair and grey eyes..

Vanyar were the smallest group of the Elvesewho are skilled in poetry, when the Noldor were proud, the wisest of all the elves & skilled... I do think that Vanyar are like Valyrians when Noldor are like First men.

ETA: I definitely like the Lyanna-Aredhel parallel, both were lead into an early grave by their wildness. I just hope that Jon doesn't turn into Maeglin :-)

His uncle died so...

Also, when Aragorn became King he united the kingdoms of Gondor and the Northern Kingdom of Arnor. IF Jon becomes King he may unite the North with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.

But Aragorn united the Kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor which "belonged" to his family maybe Jon will unite all the Houses that come from the First Men and create the Kingdom of the First Men...(hopefully)

[Fire Eater]

The gate at the Nightfort Sam uses, and later Bran is called the Black Gate. That is a reference to the Black Gate that guards the entrance to Mordor, and like the wall it was built into, it was supported by the magic of the One Ring. The Black Gate in ASOIAF is built into Wall, and both are supported by the magic of the CotF.

The Númenoreans could make stone through a now lost process that was impenetrable, and they were skilled in the making of arms and armor. They later colonized the rest of the world. The Valyrians crafts, the Black Wall in Volantis and the dragonroads are made from fused stone that never decayed, and weapons of Valyrian steel, which I know is inspired by Damascus steel. The Valyrians also colonized the rest of Essos.

ETA:

Lyanna may have some inspiration from Lúthien. Lúthien was described as the most beautiful maiden who ever lived, having dark hair and grey eyes. She died shortly after her love, Beren, did. Beren had the typical Númenorean look like Rhaegar had the typical Valyrian look.

[Ygrain]

ETA:

Lyanna may have some inspiration from Lúthien. Lúthien was described as the most beautiful maiden who ever lived, having dark hair and grey eyes. She died shortly after her love, Beren, did. The roles are reversed, Beren was tall with dark hair and blue eyes, and a hunter, which describes Robert. Beren took a Silmaril from the Dark Lord, Melkor's Iron Crown while Robert took the Iron Throne from Aerys. While Daeron was a skilled harpist, like Rhaegar, who loved Lúthien, but was not loved by her. Daeron and Lúthien's relationship resembles Lyanna's and Robert's. Beren and Lúthien managed to have one son.

I don't recall Beren's eyes described as blue (certainly not in the Silmarillion, though I am not familiar with HoME and such) - the descendants of House Bëor basically had the typical "Númenorean" look with dark hair and grey eyes. And, though he was certainly skilled in woodcraft, the part how he became a friend of animals and birds and never slew any even for food doesn't sound like Robert much. He was rather a ranger, not a hunter as such.