mrunderhill Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm thinking he had a fair idea who he was sending to murder children. Especially royal childrenThere is a delicate balance here in choosing the man to kill babies. I have said it before, but most knights would refuse and even more so royal babies. It is to be assumed that he needed to send someone ruthless, brutal, but also good. There is a good chance that one of the Kingsguard would be protecting the children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 There is a delicate balance here in choosing the man to kill babies. I have said it before, but most knights would refuse and even more so royal babies. It is to be assumed that he needed to send someone ruthless, brutal, but also good. There is a good chance that one of the Kingsguard would be protecting the children.So your agreeing that Tywin saying he didnt know he had a monster seems incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 So your agreeing that Tywin saying he didnt know he had a monster seems incorrect?Only in part. Halfhand and Slynt both say a good captain knows his men. He probably knew Gregor was fearsome and brutal enough to kill the baby, but not everything else. For instance you send the very loyal Strongboar to kill a baby and he is just not going to do it. I don't think he thought that he would rape her for certain. As to whether Elia died, it's not something he loses sleep over, but not something he wanted. A bit like Catelyn' death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pie Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 There is a delicate balance here in choosing the man to kill babies. I have said it before, but most knights would refuse and even more so royal babies. It is to be assumed that he needed to send someone ruthless, brutal, but also good. There is a good chance that one of the Kingsguard would be protecting the children.Plus time was of the essence. Gregor was Tywins best bet for killing Aegon before Ned Stark showed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I'm sure Tywin ordered the kids killed. Gregor probably took some liberties in the brutality of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Here's the thing though. There are three possibilities for how he could have given the order.1: Tywin ordered gregor to kill the kids and their mother 2. Tywin ordered gregor to kill the kids but not to harm Elia3. Tywin ordered Gregor to kill the kids but didn't mention Elia.We know its not 2, because if Tywin had given the order that way, he would have said as much to Tyrion when questioned. But he doesn't say that. He says it was "regrettable" that Elia was killed. So that leaves 3 or 1. Personally I lean towards #3 but Heres the deal - Tywin would have known that Gregor would kill Elia if she was with her kids which was overwhelmingly likely. Hence it was not neccessary for him to give the order to kill Elia - he'd have known Gregor would kill her unless he specifically told him not to, which we know he didn't. By not giving the order, much like robert he keeps his hands cleaner than otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard of Walton Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I think Tywin was defiantly behind what happened, in terms of Elia, Rhaenys & Aegon (Supposed) deaths, the need to remove the heir that loyalists could rally to & two women (Though Rhaenys is but a child) who could have been used to sow a peace by marriage would have been high on Tywins mind. Tywin seen the oppoetunity to advance his family & daughter & took it, no matter how terrible the acts committed where to take it. The rape though, may have been the Mountains own disgraceful act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigbjorn Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Remember when Jaime threatened to deliver Edmure's baby by trebuchet? He learned that from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamSongs Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Remember when Jaime threatened to deliver Edmure's baby by trebuchet? He learned that from somewhere. The difference being that Jaime makes threats based on Tywin's reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mish Windage Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Tywin's the guy who gave the order and pushed the button to send the nuke. Whatever happens at the destination imo is on the one who initiated that action. Wouldn't have even had to happen this way if Ty had acted sooner. Ty's words are like octopus ink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Joe Wilson Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Tywin probably just told Lorch and Gregor to kill the kids and left the details at that. His goal in King's Landing was to end the Targaryen line, and prove to the Baratheons that the Lannisters were sincere in their support. Tywin doesn't seem to be the kind of fellow to be extremely detailed in his orders. His command at the Green Fork shows that while he's competent he seems to rely on overwhelming force and simple tactics (Throw all the heavy horse on one flank, drive to the river after the left flank has broken). Seems likely that his orders to Gregor, who himself is a simple (brutal monster) man was a few words and that's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenabot Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Tywin definitely ordered the death of the kids, but I think he was fairly apathetic about Elia -- he didn't order her death, but also didn't give a rat's behind about her well-being. He probably heard about her fate afterward and went, "Meh." Pissing off the Dornish was inevitable by kiling the kids, so he was already willing to make the Martells angry. Reaping the rewards of supporting Bobby B. was far more lucrative than pandering to Dorne. It did sound like he mentally facepalmed when he heard what happened, though. He was displeased that it took so many stabs to kill little Rhaenys. So while he accomplished his goals, he also thought of his agents as being inept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 He'll say he didn't give the order, which he probably didn't. However he likely implied it be done and didn't complain about it afterwards. He's guilty either way in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
239JMFL34109 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 He'll say he didn't give the order, which he probably didn't. However he likely implied it be done and didn't complain about it afterwards. He's guilty either way in my mind. yeah i think it was that."kill the children let no one stop you" he knew it could happen but didn't care if she lived or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 He'll say he didn't give the order, which he probably didn't. However he likely implied it be done and didn't complain about it afterwards. He's guilty either way in my mind. I don't think it's a matter of whether Tywin is "guilty" or not; everyone agrees that he ordered the murder of two children and is at least morally responsible for the rape/murder of their mother. So he's a monster no matter what. The debate around Elia is more about what Tywin's motivation was, and what that says about his character. If Tywin was being truthful with Tyrion, then he really is motivated by cold realpolitik. (Same for if he only ordered the death of Elia, since there were pragmatic reasons to kill her too). Cruel but cold. If he actually ordered Gregor to rape Elia, however, then he is primarily motivated by emotion and bitterness (in this case about her marriage to Rhaegar over Cersei). This would make Tywin not only extremely ruthless but also extremely petty and vindictive. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Tywin no doubt took personal satisfaction from what happened during the sack of KL, but I doubt Elia factored into that. The real person Tywin despised and would want vengeance against would be Aerys (especially if you believe Aerys raped Joanna and possibly, in Tywin's mind, fathered Tyrion). And the political motive of trying to get in good with the new Baratheon regime also played a big role You also have to consider that while it may seem implausible that Tywin simply forgot to mention Elia, he really did have bigger things on his plate. Finding King Aerys and Rhaegar's children were obviously more important, but so was Tywin's son. What if Jaime chose to stay loyal to the Targaryens? What if Aerys had Jaime killed? What if Ned Stark entered the city before the Lannisters could kill Aegon and Rhaenys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tywin told Clegane and Lorch to handle Elia and her children I just want them dead . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neds Secret Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Do we know for sure that Elia was raped before she was murdered? Or is it just the rumours that have been believed over time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Do we know for sure that Elia was raped before she was murdered? Or is it just the rumours that have been believed over time? To be fair, we don't know. The only one who was probably a witness there was Clegane and he could have told Oberyn he did just to hurt him before he dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 To be fair, we don't know. The only one who was probably a witness there was Clegane and he could have told Oberyn he did just to hurt him before he dies. It must have been evident from her body afterwards. No one questions that it happened, not even Tywin (who would have reason to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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