Why Varys' speech to Kevan is necessary

[Prince of the North]

There are theories going around that Varys only told Kevan all of this because the little birds were listening. These people believe that Varys has another endgame than Illyrio, and because Illyrio provides the birds for Varys, they believe that Illyrio uses the opportunity to spy on Varys. So Varys gave the monologue in order to keep Illyrio on his good side.

I don't believe this, however. I think the little birds are loyal to Varys. Here you have Illyrio, who takes them from the orphanages, trains them, and then cuts out their tongues. Then they meet Varys, who treats them gently, provides food for them, and perhaps even the occasional coin, who knows? I think they would like Varys a whole lot better, even if he kills the ones who grow too old. It is possible the new birds don't know about this until it is their turn to die.

Hmm...I don't really know of anyone else who thinks Varys is using the Little Birds to lie to Illyrio with this speech besides me. If there are, I'd love some company! ;) Also, I don't really recall reading much of any detail about how Varys treats the Little Birds.

That was speech for us, readers

I don't think so because of what Butterbumps says below.

There's no other time Martin has ever broken the 4th wall to communicate something just for readers without some in story significance.

And it's wildly different than the Sansa reveals, namely, because Sansa is alive. As in, she hears this information, and as an alive burgeoning player, will ostensibly be using this info for some future influence. So this posits something in story that promises to have some future development in story.

For Varys to all of a sudden become a bond villain who loses all the precise discipline we've seen all series seems a bit much. I can sort of see a case for Varys to find some catharsis in finally being able to drop his act and be "himself" for once to a dying man. But even this seems rather unsatisfactory given that there's a new master of whispers in charge, Varys knows better than anyone that the walls have ears, and it would be somewhat careless if this is all some form of catharsis for him.

And the speech he gives sounds like an Enlightened Monarchy commercial. He gives this riveting address about how Aegon has been prepared to be the ideal monarch through training, not birth right. The content and style of the speech doesn't read as though it's being said solely for a dying man.

Yep, this is basically how I felt upon first reading this scene. It seemed to me to be trying a bit too hard and I also wondered about the purpose of telling all this to a dying man in the first place? Also, it seemed to be out of character and clumsy for Martin if it was just meant to be exposition. Thus, I began to think maybe the speech wasn't meant for Kevan at all but for the ears of the only other people present - the Little Birds. Then I asked myself why would/could that be? And the only possible answer I came up with was because Varys may have been sending a message to Illyrio if the Little Birds also report back to him. Why would this be if it were, in fact, the case? Well, maybe because Varys isn't really on board with fAegon but needs his financier to still believe he is for awhile longer? :dunno:

Now, I am the first to admit this is very flimsy speculation on my part but until Martin sees fit to give me more information it will remain my theory on just what is going on in the scene where Varys gives his speech to the dying Kevan. :idea:

[Father of Hosts]

Something I rarely see brought up in this debate is that Vary's gives us, the reader, absolutely no new information about Aegon. Everything he says has already been discussed in the Tyrion and JonCon chapters.

Why reiterate at the end of a book, for the reader, something they already know and in a style the author has never used?

[Israel]

Yes it was for us readers, but I tend to add that GRRM included this so we will also not question Ageons parentage with only two books to go I believe that the Tyrion / Ageon scene on the also serves purpose.

[The Mother of The Others]

Shows that Aegon's not alone but will have machinery in place to help him out. That adds extra style points.

It makes his victory look inevitable, or at least now expected by us. Tips our expectations that way instead of us giving each side a 50/50 chance. Creates an overdog/underdog in the fight ahead.

[oursisthefury69]

Like other posters, I believe the purpose of the speech was to make us consider the possibility that (f)Aegon is real. I think GRRM assumed that most of us would conclude that the baby switching story (f)Aegon related to Tyrion was too contrived to be true (this seems to be the case, at least on this forum).

Varys telling Kevan that Aegon, Rhaegar's son, is alive (I know that this is hotly disputed) serves to make us at least wonder whether the baby switch really did occur. After all, it's no accident that GRRM waited until the last part of the Epilogue to the last book in the series to have Varys himself tell Kevan that (f)Aegon really is Rhaegar's son.

he absolutely never says rhaegars son how do you have 1200 posts?

[oursisthefury69]

I can't understand why people think he needed to be telling the truth to kevan or how this erases all the mummers dragon/ him being a blackyre evidence. So without getting into all of that I'd rather pose the question why would he tell kevan the truth? does he feel like he owes kevan lannister the truth even as he kills him, he has that much respect for kevan? Really? Aegon is coming he's telling the truth, his name is Aegon

[Martini Sigil]

Are we absolutely sure that KL was alone? Perhaps someone was listening and Varys knew it?

[chrisdaw]

Why reiterate at the end of a book, for the reader, something they already know and in a style the author has never used?

Bolton and Barbrey have similar scenes with Theon/Reek.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

He's a super villan who likes to monolog.

[Maxpey]

he absolutely never says rhaegars son how do you have 1200 posts?

You have to look at the exchange from Kevan's perspective, not Varys'.

Kevan believed that Varys was talking about Rhaegar's son when he said "Aegon raises his banners . . ."

Kevan also knows that Rhaegar' son was dead, as he saw his body.

Hence, his response to Varys "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys, knowing full well that Kevan was claiming that Rhaegar's son was dead, responds "No. He's here."

In other words Varys was saying to Kevan "Sorry Kevan, but your wrong, Rhaegar's son is alive. He's here."

BTW, thanks for the kind words about getting to 1200 posts. :drool:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You have to look at the exchange from Kevan's perspective, not Varys'.

Kevan believed that Varys was talking about Rhaegar's son when he said "Aegon raises his banners . . ."

Kevan also knows that Rhaegar' son was dead, as he saw his body.

Hence, his response to Varys "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys, knowing full well that Kevan was claiming that Rhaegar's son was dead, responds "No. He's here."

In other words Varys was saying to Kevan "Sorry Kevan, but your wrong, Rhaegar's son is alive. He's here."

BTW, thanks for the kind words about getting to 1200 posts. :drool:

When you say it like that, is absolutely makes sense! I agree with you completely, Aegon really does seem to be for real (as I have been hoping :) )

[oursisthefury69]

You have to look at the exchange from Kevan's perspective, not Varys'.

Kevan believed that Varys was talking about Rhaegar's son when he said "Aegon raises his banners . . ."

Kevan also knows that Rhaegar' son was dead, as he saw his body.

Hence, his response to Varys "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys, knowing full well that Kevan was claiming that Rhaegar's son was dead, responds "No. He's here."

In other words Varys was saying to Kevan "Sorry Kevan, but your wrong, Rhaegar's son is alive. He's here."

BTW, thanks for the kind words about getting to 1200 posts. :drool:

You have to look at the exchange from Kevan's perspective, not Varys'.

Kevan believed that Varys was talking about Rhaegar's son when he said "Aegon raises his banners . . ."

Kevan also knows that Rhaegar' son was dead, as he saw his body.

Hence, his response to Varys "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys, knowing full well that Kevan was claiming that Rhaegar's son was dead, responds "No. He's here."

In other words Varys was saying to Kevan "Sorry Kevan, but your wrong, Rhaegar's son is alive. He's here."

BTW, thanks for the kind words about getting to 1200 posts. :drool:

Ok so way to talk circles around yourself he never says rhaegars son and he's not rhaegars son so what is your point? "In other words varys was saying to Kevan sorry kevan but your wrong. Rhaegars son is alive. He's here" LMAO dear god how is that in other words you mean IN YOUR made up words then yea sure. And I cant say they were kind words you should probably read the books more carefully before posting 1200 posts of this type of work

[bent branch]

I believe Varys' speech was intended solely for readers and/or as last trickery to Kevan (as Jon of the Dead suggested). For those of you who think it was meant for someone else, I'd like to know - for whom exactly was speech meant? Literally only people there are Varys, Kevan and his little birds.

1) was it for little birds? No, as the only person (other than Varys) that birds report to is Illyrio. So why would Varys be making speeches about something Illyrio knows already. Illyrio is acquainted with YG's education and training, so there's really nothing new he could learn from birds

2) was it for Qyburn's informants? No, as it would absolutely ruin all of Varys' plans. Varys' idea is to leave Kevan's murder be left ambiguous, so that Cersei and Tyrells can accuse each other. If spies hear Varys talking to dying Kevan, Varys' plan is ruined - as it will be clear who the murderer is.

3) who else could it be?

You've hit the nail on the head. There is no one outside that room that Varys' speech is aimed at. Period.

Look at it in Martin's point of view. Varys suddenly comes, kills Kevan and then leaves without uttering a word. First, it will sound absurd. Second people will ask questions on this forum "Why did Varys kill Kevan?"

This is another bull's eye. The scene is from Kevan's POV. Kevan has no idea why he is being killed. If GRRM wants to place the scene in some kind of context he had to do something like this whether some of his readers thought it was poor writing or no.

It's all completely for the reader and perfectly in character, Varys is at his leisure, he wholly owns the little birds and secrets of KL, and he's in high spirits, giddy because Aegon has landed, he has finally he has arrived.

Agreed. Varys giving unctuous little speeches explaining his actions is completely in character for Varys. I also agree that he is giddy at the thought his plans are coming to fruition.

You have to look at the exchange from Kevan's perspective, not Varys'.

Kevan believed that Varys was talking about Rhaegar's son when he said "Aegon raises his banners . . ."

Kevan also knows that Rhaegar' son was dead, as he saw his body.

Hence, his response to Varys "Aegon? Dead. He's dead."

Varys, knowing full well that Kevan was claiming that Rhaegar's son was dead, responds "No. He's here."

In other words Varys was saying to Kevan "Sorry Kevan, but your wrong, Rhaegar's son is alive. He's here."

BTW, thanks for the kind words about getting to 1200 posts. :drool:

I agree with you that when Kevan says, "Aegon? Dead. He's dead." Varys understands that Kevan is talking about Aegon Targaryen and is answering him directly that Aegon Targaryen is indeed here. Even if Varys knew Kevan was talking about Aegon Targaryen and he answered him meaning Aegon Smith, it would still be a lie. There is absolutely no value to wrapping a lie within a lie in this instance.

[mediterraneo]

I believe Varys' speech was intended solely for readers and/or as last trickery to Kevan (as Jon of the Dead suggested). For those of you who think it was meant for someone else, I'd like to know - for whom exactly was speech meant? Literally only people there are Varys, Kevan and his little birds.

1) was it for little birds? No, as the only person (other than Varys) that birds report to is Illyrio. So why would Varys be making speeches about something Illyrio knows already. Illyrio is acquainted with YG's education and training, so there's really nothing new he could learn from birds

2) was it for Qyburn's informants? No, as it would absolutely ruin all of Varys' plans. Varys' idea is to leave Kevan's murder be left ambiguous, so that Cersei and Tyrells can accuse each other. If spies hear Varys talking to dying Kevan, Varys' plan is ruined - as it will be clear who the murderer is.

3) who else could it be?

I like your questions.

I simply answer differently. Varys could be speaking for Kevan or for the birds, the only visible targets. The tunnel network is still on his sole control, or he wouldn't be able to operate from it without the Queens and the Hand to be informed.

So he is speaking to Kevan, and talking to his troops. Varys is as always manipulating, making actual propaganda to his own troops.

"We fight the good fight. We are morally superior and thus we need to do this for a greater good. You are the sole instrument able to bring this greater good to be. You are the freedom fighters, we fight for peace, they fight for war. We are sorry to do this, because you are a good man, but it is needed for the greater good. Now troops, please, cut my enemy's throath and let's go home."

It sounds very better than: "Guys now you all will cut this man's throat to start aother civil war, as I'm not happy of the mess I seeded in the land to let my friend's son to take over all the power, the only thing we lacked 20 years ago when we started this plan and partially lack now."

At least if you are a mutilated children with very limited access to informaton-interpretating tools.

[Treemaster]

I think it is too soon to know why Varys spoke to Kevan, if Varys thought he was telling Kevan the truth, and if Aegon is real or fake. But arguments about the "fourth wall" are not that persuasive, in my opinion. Perhaps Martin made a mistake, or maybe breaking the fourth wall isn't that big of deal, or perhaps there is some other explanation. It's not even clear that he did; as many posters have stated, there are plenty of "in-book" reasons for the speech (even if it is true), and it isn't even that out of character -- Varys likes to gloat and talk to others about his love of the "realm" -- see Varys' speeches to Eddard and Tyrion.

I think -- but am for from certain -- that Varys was indeed telling Kevan the truth. We are so used to assuming that Varys lies, that it is now a "twist" if he is telling the truth. And I think Varys really does believe he is in it for the realm. That was my reaction to this epilogue on my first read (and I haven't yet re-read it). Since then, I have seen a lot of persuasive arguments supporting the Blackfrye theory. I hope that it turns out to be wrong, but my instincts (which admittedly can be waaaay off) still tell me that he was telling the truth, and the purpose for including the epilogue was to tell us what is Varys' endgame. Like everything else, we'll just have to wait to know for sure. :crying:

[kandake]

That's what I was thinking, too. He allowed us to see a side of Varys we've never seen before: the relentless idealist who's willing to spend almost 20 years pursuing an ideal. It also shows he's human; he's had to juggle multiple balls and change tactics at lightning speed as the situation changes.

I think he really is sorry he's going to kill Kevan, but he's an idealist, and he can't do anything else if he's going to accomplish his goal.

[kandake]

I agree. I think people are to quick to judge varys harshly. He tells kevan he is sorry that he had to kill him but it was necessary to end the suffering of thousands of people which I do believe is his end game. Varys does show this at other times too like when he tries to get Ned to support joff's claim to the throne to avoid civil war with stannis. He is not breaking the fourth wall it just so happens that his need to explain his reasons to kevan explains his end game to us.