R+L = J v 64

[Old-Growth]

I don't think Martin does anything without thinking about it first, he is very much a chess player always thinking several moves ahead. He likes to give clues but he also likes to mislead, basically he wants you to work for it. I think all the novellas tie into the main series and have their own clues to the main story. All the Dunk and Egg stories have clues and tie in to the main story. So why not the Ice Dragon, sure it's written like a child's story in a lot of ways, but some of the the old stories we have heard in the main series have major clues and direct tie inns.

Now I have something else I must focus on, it rained on Halloween here so I have a ton of left over candy. About 15-20 pounds worth. I take it as a sign from god, he didn't want the little children to have it, he wanted me to have it, and to eat it and not share with anyone else. Not a fan of the gummie sweet tarts, so I might give them away but these carmel apple milkyways are killing me. And really whats the difference between a babyruth and a snickers? Time to try a white chocolate kit kat... Oh wow. I better stop, right after I have some mike and ike's and a rice crispy treat, ohhhh sour apple blow pop, damn peanut butter cups. Damn you reese's. In 2014 candy should really become the new health food. If chicken can taste like anything, why can't it taste like a peanut butter cup?

It is of course worth reminding ourselves that Martin was on the chess team when an undergraduate at Northwestern. He wrote a story based on that experience. I can't recall the title, but it is in the last section of "Dreamsongs".

It's something of a jump from the linkage between the Dunk and Egg stories and the main ASoIaF plot---set in the same land as part of the same history---to a linkage with a story with no common background with ASoIaF.

As for the Halloween candy, it's been four days now: I hope you have recovered from this sucrose binge.

[Black Crow]

I definitely have the sanitized version. I did not know about Adaras sister. :frown5:

The original text of The Ice Dragon is currently available in the first volume of a retrospective anthology called Dream Songs - the second volume includes The Hedge Knight. Apart from being a handy source for both, they also explain why both were written and some of the influences.

[Alia of the knife]

The original text of The Ice Dragon is currently available in the first volume of a retrospective anthology called Dream Songs - the second volume includes The Hedge Knight. Apart from being a handy source for both, they also explain why both were written and some of the influences.

Thank you! :)

[Dio Forel]

R+L 64 has been around a while... Could it be we ran out of things to rehash? The RL thread birthrate has slowed.... Ironically right when 'winter is coming'.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

It's a busy time of year, & these things cycle.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Never fear... everyone is here just waiting for the discussion to get... interesting :cool4:

[MtnLion]

I need to do this occasionally:

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king (then). This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targeyen dynasty.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I need to do this occasionally:

*snip

:thumbsup:

This really should be on every iteration of this thread

eta--

I'm going to pair it with my favorite little trick:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

"Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Har! :lol:

[Ygrain]

I need to do this occasionally:

"I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

Ned expected the majority of the Kingsguard to be present at the major battle. We know that three of them were present, and only Ser Barristan (barely) survived.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

Ser Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent are with Rhaegar when Lyanna enters the company of the prince. The Lord Commander of the Kingsguard answers this, so none of previous comment can be directed at Arthur or Oswell directly, and Gerold is accepting responsibility for their actions. There is no surprise about events on the Trident expressed by Gerold or Oswell in the next line.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

This states that Robert is considered a usurper by these Kingsguard, or at least by Oswell. He does use the term "we" and implies that Robert could not have won the battle if these three had been allowed to enter into it.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

Ned relays that King's Landing has fallen and Aerys is dead. Again, Ned expresses his surprise to not see these three Kingsguard doing their duty of protecting and defending the king.

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

The Lord Commander says that their duties were elsewhere, too far away to do anything about the events Ned is relating. He condemns Jaime as a Oathbreaker, and implies that he or one of these others would certainly kill Jaime rather than let him slay the king. This reaffirms their loyalty to the Targaryen dynasty.

“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”

Ned tells them that all remaining forces surrendered to him, and pledged fealty to Robert and Ned. He expected to find the last of the Kingsguard with these forces, but again was surprised to note that they were not. This is an invitation for the Kingsguard to surrender to him.

“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.

Arthur speaks for the group, and says that they will not surrender.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

This being placed here is important because Ned is now changing his offer. He sees that they will not surrender, but he does not want to fight them, he holds these knights in high regard, even years later. He offers them a chance to leave peacefully and do their duty by guarding the heir to the Targaryen dynasty, or so he thinks.

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

Ser Willem is a brother to Ser Jonothor Darry of the Kingsguard, and known well to these members of the Kingsguard.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

Arthur reiterates that the Kingsguard would not have chosen to leave King's Landing to protect the royal family, over doing their duty to protect and defend the king (then). This lends some credance to the curse of Jaime, earlier. But, the meaning of now has a great deal more weight to it. Not only do they point out their vow, later, but this line also says that they are guarding a king at this location, and they are unwilling to take Ned's offer to leave this king and flee to Dragonstone in relative safety to guard another heir.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king.

Ned’s wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

The final, or most important battle of the Targeyen dynasty.

“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.”

Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom. There is no blame for participating in taking Lyanna, which argues that Lyanna was never dishonored, but more likely freely participated.

Pulling the tiger by the tail, are we? :P

As you may have noticed, there has arisen bold opposition to the brainwashing of R+L, claiming Jon=Aegon, but for some reason, avoids this very thread, perhaps for fear of getting SSMed by Aegon's age at the time of the Sack, so, no fun around here these days, it seems...

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Pulling the tiger by the tail, are we? :P

As you may have noticed, there has arisen bold opposition to the brainwashing of R+L, claiming Jon=Aegon, but for some reason, avoids this very thread, perhaps for fear of getting SSMed by Aegon's age at the time of the Sack, so, no fun around here these days, it seems...

Apparently it's a fearsome bunch here!

To quote the great Albus Dumbledore... "The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing." :devil:

[Zupoleon]

I need to do this occasionally:

snip

Great stuff. I would also point out just how important the presence of the White Bull is in this equation (with respect to whether Jon is the new Targaryen King or simply a bastard). Detractors sometimes argue that these guys are just loyal to Rhaegar, and that the 'vow' they swore was to follow out his last orders, as opposed to the primary vow of protecting their King. Without Ser Gerold there, they might have had a point - Arthur was his best friend, and Oswell aided in the initial 'abduction' of Lyanna. Maybe Jon is just a bastard after all?

Insert the White Bull. From the insight were given into his character, we know just how seriously Gerold takes his vows. In any other circumstance, the moment the 3 KG found out that Rhaegar AND Aerys were dead, he would have booked it to Viserys, or ordered at least one of the other two to do the same. The White Bull's presence at the TOJ is meant to serve as the clincher for the reader - that Jon is indeed a King.

[WhiteOwl18]

Great stuff. I would also point out just how important the presence of the White Bull is in this equation (with respect to whether Jon is the new Targaryen King or simply a bastard). Detractors sometimes argue that these guys are just loyal to Rhaegar, and that the 'vow' they swore was to follow out his last orders, as opposed to the primary vow of protecting their King. Without Ser Gerold there, they might have had a point - Arthur was his best friend, and Oswell aided in the initial 'abduction' of Lyanna. Maybe Jon is just a bastard after all?

Insert the White Bull. From the insight were given into his character, we know just how seriously Gerold takes his vows. In any other circumstance, the moment the 3 KG found out that Rhaegar AND Aerys were dead, he would have booked it to Viserys, or ordered at least one of the other two to do the same. The White Bull's presence at the TOJ is meant to serve as the clincher for the reader - that Jon is indeed a King.

:agree: Indeed. Hightower's presence at the TOJ really is the key.

[MtnLion]

...

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

The Lord Commander correctly states that Viserys does not have a Kingsguard with him. He also says that the Kingsguard would not flee from their duty, to guard the king. On the night that news of the Trident arrived at King's Landing Aerys ordered that Rhaella and Viserys be taken to Dragonstone for their safety, as it appeared that King's Landing would be under siege shortly. Jaime was the only Kingsguard, and his duty was with the king, so Willem was drafted to protect the royal family members. If the Red Keep falls, and Aerys dies then Viserys was safe as long as he could stay alive on Dragonstone. The majority of the fighting men had gone with Rhaegar, and mustering enough men to defend the city or just the Red Keep may be difficult. The Kingsguard are stating that they would not flee King's Landing, as their duty was to protect and defend the king, and they would stay to fulfill their vow.

...

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king.

...

Great stuff. I would also point out just how important the presence of the White Bull is in this equation (with respect to whether Jon is the new Targaryen King or simply a bastard). Detractors sometimes argue that these guys are just loyal to Rhaegar, and that the 'vow' they swore was to follow out his last orders, as opposed to the primary vow of protecting their King. Without Ser Gerold there, they might have had a point - Arthur was his best friend, and Oswell aided in the initial 'abduction' of Lyanna. Maybe Jon is just a bastard after all?

Insert the White Bull. From the insight were given into his character, we know just how seriously Gerold takes his vows. In any other circumstance, the moment the 3 KG found out that Rhaegar AND Aerys were dead, he would have booked it to Viserys, or ordered at least one of the other two to do the same. The White Bull's presence at the TOJ is meant to serve as the clincher for the reader - that Jon is indeed a King.

So, you are suggesting that I need to enhance this portion, somewhat. Do you have any specific ideas in mind?

[Zupoleon]

So, you are suggesting that I need to enhance this portion, somewhat. Do you have any specific ideas in mind?

I would maybe just expand on the 'we swore a vow' bit. Countless versions of this thread have gone back and forth about whether that vow referred to obeying Rhaegar's initial orders versus their primary vow, and I'm sure they'll bring it up again to argue their point. Perhaps adding the significance of Gerold Hightower's presence at the TOJ, what it implies, and the fact that HE makes a point to say "We swore a vow", which should leave no doubt that the vow in question is the first, and most important of the KG - to protect the King. We can also clarify that the reason they initially stay at the TOJ is not the reason they are still there when Ned finds them...

[Dead Wolf]

Apparently it's a fearsome bunch here!

To quote the great Albus Dumbledore... "The truth is a beautiful and terrible thing." :devil:

And to quote Tyrion Lannister "Give me sweet lies, and keep your bitter truths"

[MtnLion]

Okay, comments?

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.
• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.
• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.
• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

[WhiteOwl18]

Okay, comments?

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

I like that. I think it explains it quite well.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Okay, comments?

We swore a vow, explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

Seconded. Very plain and honestly I don't see how you can argue against that at all *sigh*

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Okay, comments?

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Now, we should be certain that there is a king present, the Lord Commander has decided that all three would remain to protect the king. Several things contribute to this conclusion:

• The White Bull, as Ser Gerold is known, is quite the stickler when it comes to the comport of Kingsguard duties.

• Ser Gerold does not have a friendship with Rhaegar that would favor this decision.

• Ser Gerold has already stated that he would slay Jaime to protect Aerys.

• Ser Gerold still has a responsibility to see to the safety of the king, and keeping Arthur and Oswell with him only protects the king if the king is present at the tower.

I think you've got it.

For me Gerold being there should be the smoking gun showing that they're there protecting the king. If it was just Arthur or just Whent or just the two of them, a plausible argument could be made that they're there because of Rhaegar. As you succinctly pointed out, the same cannot be said for why Gerold is there. Gerold being there is the "Eureka" moment. And I think that's why he's there too, specifically.