three-eyed monkey

There is no particular ending I want to see happen. What I want has nothing to do with trying to interpret someone else's story. I'm happy to leave the story to GRRM and just hope we do get an ending.

I would say the mental gymnastics is on your part, making Dany someone inserted by Doran and pushing a theory that Quaithe has something to do with an Asshai plot that isn't going to happen. Who cares about the show? The show writers got practically every character arc wrong. That's why it fell apart as a story. Nobody should have to kill Dany in the end, because the point of the Lightbringer prophecy is that a true sacrifice is required to bring the dawn, and the only true sacrifice is self-sacrifice. Dany is the one who must learn to understand that weapons of mass destruction and power built by those means, ruling through fear, is a problem. So if you're looking for a compelling argument for having to kill Dany, you are missing the point.

To say Quaithe is trying to get Dany to go to Asshai isn't really an honest reading of the passage. Dany asks what is in Asshai that she will not find in Qarth. Quaithe says the truth, which is what she is trying to guide Dany to. No doubt the truth about dragons is in Asshai, but Quaithe never asks Dany to go there. If we're being honest in our reading then we have to accept there are two different interpretations to Quaithe's answer. You say it confirms that Dany needs to go to Asshai, but I say Quaithe is confirming that she will find no truth in Qarth. This is the context in which the conversation takes place, and we see this if we go back a few sentences. Quaithe warns Dany to leave Qarth soon or she will not be permitted to leave at all. And then finishes the exchange by telling Dany why, because she will find no truth there. Dany is the one who brings Asshai into it, because she thinks Quaithe is referring to Asshai when she says pass beneath the shadow, but I believe that assumption is wrong. Quaithe does not want Dany to go to Asshai, she wants her to find the truth, and she will not find that in Qarth. Dany is the danger posed by fire. The dragons giver her the power to win the throne but also the power to turn the realm to ash and charred meat. That's the point of her story. She will embrace the power first, by waking the dragon, but ultimately she must choose between holding on to that power for her own gain or sacrificing it to save the realm.

Again, we have a different interpretation of this. Dany asks where Quaithe would have her go. Quaithe did not say Asshai, she answered with a riddle. To go north she must journey south, etc. A set of directions that require her to go against her natural instincts, just as journeying south would be against the natural instincts of anyone who wanted to go north. Quaithe also says that if Dany is to touch the light then she must pass beneath the shadow. Dany assumes she must be talking about Asshai, for obvious reasons, but I think Dany is jumping to the wrong conclusion. To touch the light she must pass beneath the shadow. The light is the truth, which is what Quaithe wants Dany to find, something she will not find in Qarth. But to find the truth and understand it she must pass through the lie, so to speak. In terms of what I have been saying about Dany's arc, her plot points, and the turning Targaryen coin, Dany must wake the dragon and seize power before she can sacrifice that power to save the realm and become a true queen. Only then will she touch the light or the truth or the dawn. This way Quaithe is connected to the main climax of the story rather than a plotline involving the shadow-binders of Asshai. I agree she knows about Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa and Lightbringer. The difference between Quaithe and Mel, in my opinion, is that Quaithe understands the prophecy better than Mel does. Quaithe understands that the key point is that Nissa Nissa gave herself willingly. And because I'm saying Dany must be a dragon, then I feel the same thing must apply to Nissa Nissa. My guess is that she was a dragon too. Another difference is their approach to Stannis and Dany. Mel told Stannis he is Azor Ahai and then placed a glamoured sword in his hand, and it's becoming a sort of self-fulling prophecy on Mel's behalf. Stannis wasn't exactly convinced either. On the other hand, Quaithe is trying to lead Dany to come to the truth herself and therefore be convinced of it.

Yes. I'm assuming that because I believe her goal is the Iron throne. Her staying in Essos would be anti-climatic in my opinion. Are you referring to go east before west? Remind me. I agree Quaithe has a motive for what she is doing, that should stand for every character. When I say a mentor character, I mean she is a character that has something to teach Dany. I don't think she's there to root Dany on to be the best she can be. I'd say more guide her to her destiny. I agree that Dany being the Mother of Dragons is central to her destiny, so it makes sense that is why Quaithe is interested in her. The big question I have about Quaithe is why doesn't she just spit it out? What's with all the riddles? Dany even ponders the same thing. The obvious answer is for story reasons, GRRM doesn't want to reveal too much too soon and it gives the reader something to puzzle over. That's fine as an explanation, but I think there must be more to it. I feel Quaithe is trying to lead Dany, the Mother of Dragons, to reach a conclusion herself. That might explain her cryptic approach. It's a bit like a Zen Master, never revealing the truth to their student but leading the student to discover it for themselves. I agree that Quaithe's interest is in Dany being the Mother of Dragons but that doesn't rule out her being Targaryen. If anything, I feel given the strong Targaryen/dragon link in the story, her being the Mother of Dragons fits with her being Targaryen. I agree that dragons do come from Asshai. Again, I feel this must be symbolic as we know we're not going to Asshai, other than more visions perhaps. Dragons are creatures from the Shadow. Shadows represent a projection of power in the books. Dragons breathe fire, yes, but it is a false light that will only lead the realm deeper into darkness. This is what Dany needs to understand before the end if she is to help bring the dawn, in my opinion.

I'll start a new topic a bit later today and we can have that discussion there. We agree on this. It's all good. You always make a strong case and that's the way it should be. As I said earlier in the thread, if Dany is not the daughter of Rhaella, say GRRM came out and confirmed that, then I feel she would have to be Rhaegar and Lyanna's. Aerys' bastard with Ashara Dayne would be a dark horse, but I think that's more likely a dark star. So I'm not dismissing your theory, it's interesting to me for sure. I've thought about it a lot over the years but I always struggled to connect the dots between Lyanna and the Tower of Joy and Viserys and Darry on Dragonstone. That's worthy of it's own thread too. I'd like to see the whole theory. There's clearly a strong symbolic connection between Jon and Dany, ice and fire, and they will be central to resolving the plot together. So that's my position at the moment, the connections are symbolic rather than one of siblings. But I never say never. I'll address all that in the thread I post about the three fires and stuff. Of course, it's central to Dany's character. She is the Mother of Dragons, and that's something she needs to reflect on, (shout-out to Serwyn of the Mirrorshield again), when she comes to her final decision. I think that she is the Mother of Dragons shows that she is a Targaryen, not that it must mean she's not. I know you say the Targaryens had lost their ability to hatch dragons, but no one else in Westeros ever had that ability. It makes sense to me that GRRM got rid of the dragons for a while so that the Targaryens could be overthrown by a Usurper, setting up Dany's story. The Starks seem to have lost the ability to skinchange too, if Ned's pov is anything to go by. But that ability is back with his children. Magic waned for a time it seems, but the trees have eyes again. If I recall correctly it was at the great pyramid of Meereen when one of her handmaids asked her who she was talking to or Quaithe said something about if you call your guards they will swear I'm not here. I will have to go back and read.

Well, you're using a rather broad definition, though it's not wrong. I'm talking about something specific to story structure for three act stories, like Dany's. It starts with the Initiating Incident, which kicks off her journey, and continues through the First Plot-Point and Midpoint and then on to the Final Plot-Point, which is when the character resolves their inner-conflict or at least learns how to resolve it. Yes, there's a whole chain of events, so if we're going to call each one a plot point then let's call what I'm talking about the three major plot-points. In relation to the structure of Dany's story, we first get the initiating incident. This is her marriage to Drogo in exchange for an army to invade Westeros, that's what gets her journey underway. Then Viserys dies, this is usually called a pinch point but it's a minor version of the first major plot point, things change for Dany, the responsibility to win the throne becomes hers now, but she is still going in much the same direction with Drogo, just without Viserys. The first plot point is where her journey changes direction. Drogo dies, his army abandons her, Dany doesn't know what to do, she walks into the fire and emerges with dragons, and so begins the next stage of her journey. For the first time she is in charge of herself, it's a step from pawn to novice player. It's an escalation of the change in the pinch point when Viserys died, as the responsibility is all hers now with Drogo gone. I don't mean to ramble on but I just want to try an briefly explain what I'm talking about when I say the three fires mark her three major plot-points. GRRM helped identify them by marking each with a fire. He also marked the journey to each plot point with a mount and a treason. For example, the first mount is Silver, who she rode to her marriage to Drogo. The first treason is Mirri, who killed Drogo and Rhaego. The first fire is Drogo's pyre. It has to do with Lemongate theories that suggest that Dany is not a Targaryen. I think her arc works better if she is a Targaryen, because her being one is central to the whole arc. What parts do you feel are not supported by text? What we disagree about is not what's in the text but how we interpret it. You think "remember who you are" means she must be someone else, that's your head cannon. I disagree, I guess that's my head cannon. I do support my position with text, but when we are talking about well known things like Dany's three fires I guess I don't feel the need. But if you need me to support a point I'm making I will. I'm getting these ideas from reading the books. I love the story, naturally, but my main interest is in the craft of story-telling. How the story is structured, how the arcs work, how the themes are developed, how inner-conflicts are created, how character progression is written, all that sort of stuff. As we are analyzing a story, I feel that stuff is relevant. Certainly a mentor figure, but not Dany's main mentor. Yes, because the main elements of Dany's story are symbolized there so there are lots of clues to her destiny. Mother of Dragons, her son Rhaego burning cities, breaker of chains, child of three, bride of fire, Rhaegar and the Prince that was Promised, Jon, Stannis, Aegon, and other significant figures she will encounter. These are all pieces of the puzzle of her arc and need to be understood and put together, it's not just a case of picking the one that supports your theory. Well, if that's the case GRRM has already confirmed that Quaithe has failed, yet curiously she's still around.

@Frey family reunion This debate is just going around in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree. I agree that there is something going on with the lemon tree and the house with the red door and I'm open to it being in Tyrosh or Dorne, not Braavos. However, I disagree that it means Dany is someone else. I can see how this can be taken to mean Dany must remember she is someone else. If that's how you want to interpret it, fine. I see it different. The dragons know. Well, they can't know who she really is if she is someone else, given that they hadn't hatched when this proposed child swap happened. That's obviously not what is meant here. The dragons know who they are. They are dragons, wild beasts, apex predators, weapons of mass destruction. They know they are dragons, but does Daenerys? Dany has now mounted Drogon and is in the process of waking the dragon because that's the only way she can win against the slavers massing against her. She is going to remember she is a dragon. That's the second plot-point, the second fire, when she burns the black-walled heart of Volantis. She will embrace that side of her nature and it will bring her victory, validating her decision and informing her character as to how she can win the Iron Throne. After that she begins her third act and heads for Westeros and the climax of the story as well as her third plot point and fire. But she's not finished remembering yet, because there is another decision to be made when it comes to the climax of the story and the resolution of her arc. Something she told herself she must not forget, back in the first book. She is a link in a chain of kings and conquerors who rule through fire and blood. This is the chain she will break when she sacrifices herself to save the realm. This is the third and final turn in her arc, her third plot point and fire. Lightbringer is the third fire. And the sword that is tempered with her blood, the one the Others cannot stand against, is dragonsteel because it is tempered with the blood of the dragon. So when Quaithe asks Dany does she know who she is, the answer at that stage is no. Not that she is actually someone else but that she doesn't know who she is, which is typical of a coming of age story. Dany is trying to figure out who she is. And this comes back to her inner conflict. She wants to be a good queen who does good things like free slaves and protect her people, but to be a queen and take the throne and hold power she needs to wake the dragon and do some bad things like fight rebellions or whatever, which ultimately bleed the realm. Does she belong to herself like most kings and dragons, - a dragon is not a slave - or does she belong to her people? In the end Dany will decide that she is a queen that belongs not to herself but to the realm and she will demonstrate that by willingly sacrificing herself to save her people. And when she does that she will be remembered as a great queen not a mad queen, remembered forever with love, the thing she lit the third fire for, the thing she was always looking for. Edit: But that's just my interpretation.

That's not my point as I've explained a number of times. Dany's arc is about a girl who is a member of the political elite but who learns that it is complete bullshit. The story is anti elite, told from the point of view of characters who are mainly elite, it's the nobles who play the game of thrones afterall, but need to learn it's bullshit and put it aside to save the realm. Calling me elitist or suggesting that I have an elitist position does nothing for your argument. You don't want Dany to be exceptional, yet you need her to have that exceptional bloodline, which just shows how flawed your logic is. Yes, because she is a Targaryen. You believe that, fine. I don't buy it for a minute. I believe Doran sent his brother to sign a secret marriage pact to marry his daughter to Viserys, but then Viserys died and Dany took up the cause, so then Doran had to rearrange his shit and send Quentyn to Dany instead in the hope she might marry him. I don't think she is not legit, you do. You think she's a "rando" with an exceptional bloodline. Viserys wanted an army to get his kingdom back and several years of trying to win support had failed. Again, it's more powerful if he sells his actual sister for this rather than someone Doran swapped in.

It's the second fire, when she burns Volantis and ends her second act with a victory over the slavers, after which she will begin her third act and turn for home. No but her whole arc works better if she is a dragon rather than a random with the characteristics of a dragon who was swapped in by Doran for no sensible reason.

Varys may not have interest in Sansa, other than assessing that Sansa has value to Littlefinger and wanting to scupper whatever plan he might have for her. Yeah, the gold reward probably was put up by the crown. That's better for Varys as he doesn't have to pay with his own coin. However, Varys trained mice back in Essos, before he moved on to little birds in King's Landing. The mice were orphans, the small and clever ones. Shardrich the Mad Mouse is small and clever. He still might be just a random hedge knight looking for the reward Varys was offering. Either way, if he takes away one of Littlefinger's pieces then I think Varys will be happy.

Plot points are not repeated. Plot points are turning points in the story. Dany has three major plot-points, like most character arcs. Usually called first plot-point, mid-point, final plot-point. Dany's three are symbolized by her three fires. First plot point is Drogo's pyre. This is the end of the first act of her story, where Dany's dragons hatch and she begins her journey as her own queen, even though she only has a small following. Second plot point is upcoming at the end of her second act when she will wake the dragon and undo the bind she is in in Meereen by destroying the slavers with dragonfire. The black-walled heart of Volantis will be the second fire. This is where she will turn from queen to dragonqueen. This is foreshadowed by Drogon replacing the Harpy at the top of the Great Pyramid of Meereen. Dany, the dragon, will replace the slavers at the top of the food chain in Essos. This is where the Targaryen coin turns towards madness, but it hasn't landed yet. Third plot point will come near the end of her third act. Lightbringer will be the third fire she lights, when she sacrifices herself to save her realm, and this is where she turns from dragonqueen to true queen. This is the greatness side of the Targaryen coin and when it lands the world can breath again. Her story turns on her plot points. That's the problem it seems.

You don't need spies to tell you everything. Spies are very helpful but it's still a game like chess or poker. You watch your opponent move their pieces, you try to anticipate and predict and counter, while making you own moves. Equally, Varys can try to predict what Littlefinger is doing. Sansa, a piece of significant value, disappears from King's Landing. It's no stretch to think she might have had help escaping, possibly from another player like Littlefinger. He might not know fully what Littlefinger intends but he sees the piece move and hopes the plump reward to bring her back to King's Landing can disrupt whatever plan Littlefinger has for her.

Exactly. Can't bring it much further than that without dismissing the text. The theory that Dany is someone else starts with an assumed conclusion and then tries desperately to find evidence that supports and explains the conclusion. Her memories that suit your theory are fine, but her memories that don't are dismissed. If you follow the overwhelming evidence from the start of the story to where we are now it leads you to the conclusion that Dany is Dany, without needing to dismiss anything. The lemon tree might not be in Braavos but that doesn't mean Dany is not Dany. Yes it is a moral trap, you're starting to see her dilemma. It's called inner conflict. She wants to be a true queen but if she is to win the throne she needs to unleash war, but if she doesn't win the throne she can't be a true queen. A true queen belongs not to herself but to her people. That's my point. Mad queens do that, and Dany has the potential to be a mad queen, it will even bring her success when she wakes the dragon and burns Volantis at her second plot point, but Dany has not reached her third and final plot point yet. She will choose a true queen's duty to the realm over her own right to the throne, and in doing so become a great queen who sacrificed herself to save the realm. You think your theory does? It's not even a theory, it's just a conclusion you jumped to and are trying but failing to make work. No, where did I say that. That's just another misunderstanding on your part. The moral is about doing the right thing, being true, despite how hard that may be or what it may cost, so it is the means that justify the ends. Winning the throne by whatever means necessary would be the end justifying the means, and Stannis will demonstrate how that goes. This theme applies to kings, knights, all characters really.

I don't think Littlefinger is trying to crash the Iron Bank, he's trying to crash Ilyyrio and Varys's party without an invitation. There was a time when I suspected that Littlefinger's rivalry with Varys was just for show and that they were possibly working together, but I tend to lean away from that now because Varys complained about Littlefinger's meddling in the plan (Littlefinger not Joffrey was the one who hired the catspaw and armed him with a blade he had publicly handed over to Robert and later secretly reacquired, but that's beside the point) and meddling is unwarranted interference. So I don't believe they are working together but we are told Littlefinger and Varys watch each other very closely. I think Littlefinger knows about Varys and Illyrio's plan to bring in King Aegon. Littlefinger's counter move is to create a queen for Aegon to marry, a beautiful and recently widowed queen who brings the North and the Vale to the new king. Littlefinger knows there will be rival suitors, like Highgarden and Dorne, and that's what he means by what little peace the five kings left will not survive the three queens. He anticipates a war for Aegon's hand. But Varys will counter that by taking Sansa off Littlefinger, by way of the Mad Mouse. It might even be checkmate for Littlefinger if that happens.