Is There A Difference Between Sansa's and Gilly's Scenes?

[Stan Man]

One of the glaring problems of this week's episode is the inclusion of a non-book scene in which Gilly is confronted by two anonymous Night's Watch members and nearly raped, until Sam and Ghost save the day. This comes as a striking issue after many voiced complaints over 5.06's Black Wedding rape scene. Now, since this a sensitive topic, just keep it civil.

I was a "supporter" of the final scene of 5.06 - meaning that, even though the rape is horrible, I recognize that connecting Sansa and Winterfell leaves D² with nearly no other choice, simply because of Ramsay's character. Now, I don't want this to become a thread about Sansa's scene alone, but instead comparing it with Gilly's scene this week.

I think Sansa's scene was unavoidable after her wedding. Even with Ramsay's ... extreme character, it would take someone as noble and respectable as Tyrion to avoid consummating the marriage. There's no way Ramsay wouldn't do that.

Gilly's scene was completely avoidable. Her location and situation has not changed from the books. You do not need a nearly-rape scene in order to demonstrate the Night's Watch's hostility towards wildlings, even in the absence of Aemon and Jon Snow. What makes Gilly's scene worse is that it led to the infamous Fat Pink Mast. This was a mistake that the writers should have seen coming - Gilly admiring Sam for his bravery and after she was almost violated giving up herself to him.

Yes, Sam is sweet. Yes, they have a relationship. It wasn't like they haven't been developing or anything. They've kissed and, by the old gods, she named her son after him. But after an assault like that, I don't think she'd be ready to pounce on him for the first time. It should have been one of tenderness.

If they wanted a lead-in to the Fat Pink Mast, all they had to do was show Sam tender and emotional and needing Gilly's support. She hugs him, slowly they get to kissing, bam, he's on the bed, and then he says, "Oh...oh...oh my." It felt like unnecessary romance and unwarranted comic relief after a drastic scene.

I'll support Sansa's scene as warranted, but not Gilly's.

[Connartist92]

I thought Gilly's scene did happen in the books? Or something similar to it at least.. Maybe "off-screen" so to speak.. But I swear I remember something like that. I'm rereading now, so if I come across it I shall share the quote.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

It should have been tender. They should have been comforting each other. Of all the relationships in the show, this one had the most possibility to be a normal, loving companionship between two people who truly like and appreciate each other.

D&D don't know how to do that. It seems that they're really immature and their thinking about relationships is on the level of a 13-year-old boy.

[Knight Of Winter]

I agree. Progressing Sam-Gilly relationship was perfectly fine and plausible without GIlly's near rape experience and Sam's heroics.

It's a common cliche on TV, unfortunately. Two people who are attracted to each other can't simply enter in a relationship naturally and spontaneously, no. In order for that to happen, something big needs to happen - big confession, grand gesture or (case in point) saving lady from thugs.

[Pies are coming]

Wait, didn't Gilly and Sam had sex last season, or the previous one? I don't recall the exact scene, but Sam and Jon were discussing how they both broke their vows and Sam lectures Jon on how the oath they take doesn't mention anything about sex.

So, a few things.

First, I'm surprised they weren't carrying on in secret

Second, the Night's Watch is filled with rapists, thugs and murderers. There is a reason Book Jon sends the spearwives to another tower, why there is a song about Brave Dacey Flint, why he puts a giant to watch over Val, why he sends Gilly away, etc. Gilly remaining at Castle Black was a rape Russian roulette.

Third, Gilly was raised by Craster. Forget all you know about how normal women react to an attempted rape

Four, that's exactly what Tysha did in the books, minus the wedding thing. Whatever you think about D&D, George has been there before.

Fifth, the scene could give Thorne arguments to convince Sam to go (with Gilly) to Oldtown to become a maester

[jet199]

I think one of the big mistakes the show made was only including an outright attack on Gilly and nothing else. If a lone woman was living in a castle filled with murdered and rapists then she would probably expect to get comments shouted at her everyday, people following her around, joking about her behind her back and threats against Sam as well. Instead we got a couple of people looking at Sam funny and Gilly being mostly ignored. I know harassment is one of those thing that doesn't get done in front of other men but D&D should have at least attempted to make the scenario realistic even if they hadn't had experience of it themselves. I wonder if the fact that it is cheaper to get people to stare or nod than to say a line also came in to it. If this attack had been set up properly with previous character behaviour, as Ramsay's behaviour was known to the viewers, then the scene would have made sense. As it was it seemed to come out of nowhere and be just a plot devise.

[dbunting]

Why are people freaked out because they had sex after. Her character showed no signs of trauma from that attack and instead was showing signs of strength. She felt like she was protecting Sam from himself, and felt compassion and respect toward him for trying to help her.

Oh, my, we expected Ramsey to rape Sansa so that is ok, but not Gilley. Really, in a place where she is the only female surrounded by rapists?

[Mish Windage]

The only thing, and I mean the ONLY thing that bothered me about it was Ghost deusexmeching.

Gilly said in the past she gets comments all the time from other NW members... so that happens.

Now her "Protectors" for the most part are gone... the timing was there. Made sense to me. Opportunistic not planned.

She's a Crasterkid. Her views on sex and life and who knows what else is probably somewhat skewed.

The normal wildling way to get married is for the guy to kidnap you and rape you. If he can, he's a worthy husband.

Yeah she's crasterkin so maybe a little different in her family, but still... they see things differently.

What's a turn off to one person may be a turn off to another. Maybe instead of seeing it as an almost trauma, she sees it as a victory.

[robasp2]

My problems

1. Ghost was realistic. I thought I'd see some sam beating up the guys bullshit.. But why did ghost dissappear suddenly?

2. Having sex with a badly wounded man seemed VERY disturbing to me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why are people freaked out because they had sex after. Her character showed no signs of trauma from that attack and instead was showing signs of strength. She felt like she was protecting Sam from himself, and felt compassion and respect toward him for trying to help her.

Oh, my, we expected Ramsey to rape Sansa so that is ok, but not Gilley. Really, in a place where she is the only female surrounded by rapists?

Gilly hasn't been assaulted at the Wall in books. Not all men are rapists :dunno:

Yet, Gilly is a survivor of rape. She was constantly abused by her own father in a situation I suppose she could have seen as "normal". We can see it during the first books. She was, like Jon said, a very scared little girl but it was Craster she feared, not the crows. If anything, I suppose Gilly didn't see herself as a victim of Craster but his presence limited her own development. Her baby gave her strength, also the fact that she realised Sam (and some other people in the Wall) did care for her safety.

There is a misconception about rape survivors. It's not like they are completely scared of sex forever. Some might, but not all of them. When she and Sam finally had sex, it wasn't because "danger!" but because they finally were away from the things that scared her and Sam. They both grew from their situation and Gilly stopped being afraid as well. That and the mourning of losing Aemon and also, her own baby. She looked at Sam for comfort and she also gave Sam that same comfort.

[voodooqueen126]

I think one of the big mistakes the show made was only including an outright attack on Gilly and nothing else. If a lone woman was living in a castle filled with murdered and rapists then she would probably expect to get comments shouted at her everyday, people following her around, joking about her behind her back and threats against Sam as well. Instead we got a couple of people looking at Sam funny and Gilly being mostly ignored. I know harassment is one of those thing that doesn't get done in front of other men but D&D should have at least attempted to make the scenario realistic even if they hadn't had experience of it themselves. I wonder if the fact that it is cheaper to get people to stare or nod than to say a line also came in to it. If this attack had been set up properly with previous character behaviour, as Ramsay's behaviour was known to the viewers, then the scene would have made sense. As it was it seemed to come out of nowhere and be just a plot devise.

That's a very good point, and don't D&D have wives? or couldn't they have hired some female script writers to tell them what it's like?

[voodooqueen126]

Sorry for the double post.

That Gilly would be less traumatised by attempted rape is sadly less unbelievable then you might believe

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/secluded-hills-hid-a-familys-darkest-secret-20131208-2ywps.html

Anyway the weird part of it-not mentioned in the article-was the lack of trauma, even if their behaviour was inappropriate.

However it was unneccessary, since it could've just happened with alcohol (so that Sam could lower his inhibitions).

[Tagganaro]

One of the glaring problems of this week's episode is the inclusion of a non-book scene in which Gilly is confronted by two anonymous Night's Watch members and nearly raped, until Sam and Ghost save the day. This comes as a striking issue after many voiced complaints over 5.06's Black Wedding rape scene. Now, since this a sensitive topic, just keep it civil.

I was a "supporter" of the final scene of 5.06 - meaning that, even though the rape is horrible, I recognize that connecting Sansa and Winterfell leaves D² with nearly no other choice, simply because of Ramsay's character. Now, I don't want this to become a thread about Sansa's scene alone, but instead comparing it with Gilly's scene this week.

I think Sansa's scene was unavoidable after her wedding. Even with Ramsay's ... extreme character, it would take someone as noble and respectable as Tyrion to avoid consummating the marriage. There's no way Ramsay wouldn't do that.

Gilly's scene was completely avoidable. Her location and situation has not changed from the books. You do not need a nearly-rape scene in order to demonstrate the Night's Watch's hostility towards wildlings, even in the absence of Aemon and Jon Snow. What makes Gilly's scene worse is that it led to the infamous Fat Pink Mast. This was a mistake that the writers should have seen coming - Gilly admiring Sam for his bravery and after she was almost violated giving up herself to him.

Yes, Sam is sweet. Yes, they have a relationship. It wasn't like they haven't been developing or anything. They've kissed and, by the old gods, she named her son after him. But after an assault like that, I don't think she'd be ready to pounce on him for the first time. It should have been one of tenderness.

If they wanted a lead-in to the Fat Pink Mast, all they had to do was show Sam tender and emotional and needing Gilly's support. She hugs him, slowly they get to kissing, bam, he's on the bed, and then he says, "Oh...oh...oh my." It felt like unnecessary romance and unwarranted comic relief after a drastic scene.

I'll support Sansa's scene as warranted, but not Gilly's.

Both scenes were "completely avoidable" as far as I'm concerned. I don't think it was inevitable that Sansa would be getting raped once she went to Winterfell, especially not in that manner, and yeah...I agree with everything about Gilly/Sam, including the ridiculousness that was Jon going on an extremely dangerous mission and leaving Ghost behind.

[Masha]

I thought Gilly's scene did happen in the books? Or something similar to it at least.. Maybe "off-screen" so to speak.. But I swear I remember something like that. I'm rereading now, so if I come across it I shall share the quote.

Pretty sure it happened in AFFC, pretty much exactly the exact same scene only on a ship vs castle Black , sans rape attempt/beating of Sam

[dbunting]

@ JonCon, I didn't say all men are rapists, but the majority at the wall are criminals and a lot of them are rapists. They can't go to moletown now because they are all dead, and Gilly is now the only female for thousands of miles and the LC is gone, things are going to hell. So it is not unexpected for this to happen. To me it was strange that it didn't happen in the books.

[Tagganaro]

@ JonCon, I didn't say all men are rapists, but the majority at the wall are criminals and a lot of them are rapists. They can't go to moletown now because they are all dead, and Gilly is now the only female for thousands of miles and the LC is gone, things are going to hell. So it is not unexpected for this to happen. To me it was strange that it didn't happen in the books.

I think the point everyone is making is why? I agree that logically something like that might happen, it is in fact referenced and worried about in the books several times as Pies Are Coming pointed out. But why does the show feel the need to portray it? And why does THAT attempted rape have to be the impetus for Sam and Gilly to finally get to "Fat Pink Mast"?

In light of the show's problems with rape and portrayal of women, I think it's very fair to be concerned about that.

[Pies are coming]

I think one of the big mistakes the show made was only including an outright attack on Gilly and nothing else. If a lone woman was living in a castle filled with murdered and rapists then she would probably expect to get comments shouted at her everyday, people following her around, joking about her behind her back and threats against Sam as well. Instead we got a couple of people looking at Sam funny and Gilly being mostly ignored. I know harassment is one of those thing that doesn't get done in front of other men but D&D should have at least attempted to make the scenario realistic even if they hadn't had experience of it themselves. I wonder if the fact that it is cheaper to get people to stare or nod than to say a line also came in to it. If this attack had been set up properly with previous character behaviour, as Ramsay's behaviour was known to the viewers, then the scene would have made sense. As it was it seemed to come out of nowhere and be just a plot devise.

While I agree, Stannis did say half the watchmen were rapists a few episodes back. It's not that they didn't build up, is that they didn't build up enough

[Pies are coming]

I think the point everyone is making is why? I agree that logically something like that might happen, it is in fact referenced and worried about in the books several times as Pies Are Coming pointed out. But why does the show feel the need to portray it? And why does THAT attempted rape have to be the impetus for Sam and Gilly to finally get to "Fat Pink Mast"?

In light of the show's problems with rape and portrayal of women, I think it's very fair to be concerned about that.

Well, not showing it is the coward's way out. You are concerned about rape? Well, here's a show which doesn't sugarcoat it for its viewers.

As for Gilly imitating Tysha sans the marriage, I have no idea how realistic that is, given Gilly's background.

[jet199]

While I agree, Stannis did say half the watchmen were rapists a few episodes back. It's not that they didn't build up, is that they didn't build up enough

Well, you are supposed to show, not tell.

It's especially important you show rather than tell when a character like Jon, whose main journey so far has been realising that a lot of what people say about both the watch and the wildings isn't actually true, is tied up in their story arc.

[TheCasualObserver]

It's on-point criticism as far as I'm concerned. Using rape to finally get Gilly in the mood is just one more shit in the "sexaul violence against women" bucket that D and D keep a the bottom of their bed. However, Sansa's rape was obviously avoidable, because both she and LF had ample opportunities to avoid it. It was necessary in the sense that D and D took one of the most extreme and controversial moments of the book and placed a main character in the role instead, without any thought to the broader context, nor how it would effect the characters.