[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XVIII - DeReekerization

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Martin is a writer who keeps the fourth wall very upright, he may though give us the illusion of holes in it when certain characters act as his voice in the story, seem to have his dreams for the world and may entertain ideological values ahead of their time. It is still conventional theater. This is not Tyrion or Septon Meribald talking to us about their world like Frank Underwood might, or Lemony Snicket, this is Tyrion or Septon M. talking to others or to himself within the story.

They who cause the emotions are precisely not the actors but the characters who are fictional through and through. They keep the Fourth Wall very upright, we do not see the machines making artificial snow, we do not see the actors speaking to the audience. We can and should suffer with the characters they let come to fictional life, it's called immersion.

But taking the actor (or any other member of the entertainment industry) as the real thing is the big fandom illusion.

No, Angelina Jolie is not Lara Croft and Sophie Turner is not Sansa, in three years she will have another job.

Nobody thinks Sophie Turner is Sansa. They as I mentioned are the characters, not the actors. I don't know Sophie Turner. She seems a good person, but my sympathies don't lie with her. They do with Sansa Stark though, the character I do know, and that I did buy as a "real" person. Therefore, the theory that we should not care is bogus. The point of any form of entertainment is that, as you have said, we are immersed into it and we do at least pretend to believe they are real people. I was answering an argumentation that we should feel nothing since they aren't real, and they as in, these characters.

Well, the key is, since no real women were hurt in the making of this show, there is no valid opinion we can form about whether D&D are good people, in a personal level, or not. We can not accuse them of being sick, perverts nor anything else because they didn't harm anyone. They are artists, better or worse, but artists. And art can face us with our demons and it can hurt. Anyone who watches this show should know that by now.

It's even laughable the idea that we can somehow disassociate ourselves completely to write. This is not 19th century positivism - As I'm sure you're very much aware, Momsen's writings about the Roman Empire tells us just as much from the German Empire he envisioned in his period. Every author reflects his thoughts on his work. But even if I do buy your theory, that still doesn't change the fact that their storytelling skills are sketchy at best. I can criticize their work.

But to enlighten my point, I don't think they are sick, perverts or any of the kind. I think they are, though, not that worried about logical storytelling and obsessed with "Shocking moments." They bent the entirety of the show's inner logic to position Sansa in Winterfell, despite the fact that she was already married, that her going there by choice made little sense and that Littlefinger's book!Counterpart would never drop one of his most important pieces to the Boltons. My point is, they wrote that storyline backwards. They figured it'd be more shocking if Sansa was raped in Winterfell by Ramsay, and so, they decided that they'd write backwards from that moment. It's just so obvious when you analyze the leaps of logic. And how the tension of the story was just hanging on "Will they go full-Jeyne?". Of course, they took the cowardly way out - They couldn't bring themselves to do the book scene, probably scared of the reactions, rather than the shock factor - and in two episodes, the rape will have little-bearing to Show!Sansa's characterization.

[nfe]

This whole plotline is rife with issues; I am not even going to talk about the rape.

First, you have the problem with Sansa's character development. More and more, I think the writers don't give two shits about keeping any sort of consistency in her character...after her escape from KL, she's supposed to develop into a better player and a better liar, by having her pick up on details about Littlefinger's plans and having her lie to Lysa and the Vale lords. We leave season 4 with the promise that Sansa is about to become something other than a victim -- look, she even got a cool sexy, dark dress to go with it. They give her agency at the end of season 4 by having her save LF and reveal that she's Sansa...And then we have season 5, and enormous back tracking with her character. She agrees to the marriage plot, with no questions asked.

They dumb down LF to the point that master spy LF doesn't do his research on Ramsay before handing Sansa to him.

It strikes me as very strange that so many posts that attribute epithets like 'master spy' to LF in the same posts appear to assume that he's telling people the truth about what he knows or what he thinks is best, and imply that because Sansa held power over him in one instance, that that wasn't exactly what he wanted.

Sansa certainly thought she was learning the game, and she was better at it in season 4 than season 3, but does it not seem more likely that she was simply placed in situations that led her to perform exactly the actions he wanted?

Bizarre.

[Woman of War]

What makes people consider the possibility that Baelish is acting dumb and under an untypical lack of information is his unclear emotional approach to Sansa. We simply do not know how much and in which way he cares about her.

A master plotter might be extremely sloppy to put the woman he loves into the hands of a madman. But does he really care about Sansa's wellbeing? He though may not care about a "virginal" future lover and he may hope to jump in as Sansa's saviour from a hellish marriage but this is so very risky, Sansa might simply die while he is doing his politics.

So maybe Sansa is no more than a means to his goals who cherished the illusion to know what he wants and him charming her is not different from charming Lisa.

Meaning Sansa will not be his weakness in the end but her illusions about him are an asset for him while being Sansa's weakness.

It is fine if you are a player. It is ok if you know that you are no player but then you should try to get the hell out of the game.

It may be deadly if you believe to be a player when in fact you aren't.

[Tagganaro]

What makes people consider the possibility that Baelish is acting dumb and under an untypical lack of information is his unclear emotional approach to Sansa. We simply do not know how much and in which way he cares about her.

A master plotter might be extremely sloppy to put the woman he loves into the hands of a madman. But does he really care about Sansa's wellbeing? He though may not care about a "virginal" future lover and he may hope to jump in as Sansa's saviour from a hellish marriage but this is so very risky, Sansa might simply die while he is doing his politics.

So maybe Sansa is no more than a means to his goals who cherished the illusion to know what he wants and him charming her is not different from charming Lisa.

Meaning Sansa will not be his weakness in the end but her illusions about him are an asset for him while being Sansa's weakness.

It is fine if you are a player. It is ok if you know that you are no player but should try to get the hell out of the game.

It may be deadly if you believe to be a player when in fact you aren't.

I'm not even sure it's relevant whether LF actually cares for Sansa or not in this analysis-- Either way the show has contrived LF giving up his most valuable asset to someone he couldn't be bothered learning anything about. It's entirely absurd.

[Lord Freypie]

It strikes me as very strange that so many posts that attribute epithets like 'master spy' to LF in the same posts appear to assume that he's telling people the truth about what he knows or what he thinks is best, and imply that because Sansa held power over him in one instance, that that wasn't exactly what he wanted.

Sansa certainly thought she was learning the game, and she was better at it in season 4 than season 3, but does it not seem more likely that she was simply placed in situations that led her to perform exactly the actions he wanted?

Bizarre.

That LF wasn't lying when he told he had no intel on Ramsay comes from a Brian Cogman interview were he said something like "the difference between book!Ramsay and show!Ramsay is that show!Ramsay isn't a notorious psycho so LF don't know much about him".

About his plan seems clear he is hiding things to the 3 sides (Roose, Cersei and Sansa), but it has to be an extremely brillant plan to make me forget how dumb it looked when he risked his main card (+ his life would the Bolton had decided to denounce him to Cersei when he made the first approach) with no information about one of the main characters involved.

[Roxane De]

I bet Sansa is going to kill Walda just after the moment Ramsay leaves Winterfell, framing him for the murder of Roose's wife and future trueborn son.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

What makes people consider the possibility that Baelish is acting dumb and under an untypical lack of information is his unclear emotional approach to Sansa. We simply do not know how much and in which way he cares about her.

A master plotter might be extremely sloppy to put the woman he loves into the hands of a madman. But does he really care about Sansa's wellbeing? He though may not care about a "virginal" future lover and he may hope to jump in as Sansa's saviour from a hellish marriage but this is so very risky, Sansa might simply die while he is doing his politics.

So maybe Sansa is no more than a means to his goals who cherished the illusion to know what he wants and him charming her is not different from charming Lisa.

Meaning Sansa will not be his weakness in the end but her illusions about him are an asset for him while being Sansa's weakness.

It is fine if you are a player. It is ok if you know that you are no player but then you should try to get the hell out of the game.

It may be deadly if you believe to be a player when in fact you aren't.

This would all make sense if the producers and Aidan Gillen had said nothing. But they all confirmed LF had no idea about Ramsay's true nature and honestly believed what he told show!Sansa in Episode 4. Aidan goes even further and claims Show!LF cares about Sansa more than anyone else and that he's obviously interested in her. So, no, there's no explanation of LF's role in this storyline.

This last part, I'm not sure, but If I recall correctly, Aidan even said that if he knew, he wouldn't have put Sansa in Winterfell. So much for Master Manipulator.

[Tyrion's Third Wife]

I call bull**** on "laws prohibiting" the producers. Art is art, and you can show the seedy, ILLEGAL part of a story. Now, yes, perhaps there are laws protecting the ACTORS, but even that would be restricted to nudity/performance only, not "off screen" story telling.

And it's very simple to cast an adult who can pass for a minor in a disturbing scene. NO LAW against that.

[Mladen]

This would all make sense if the producers and Aidan Gillen had said nothing. But they all confirmed LF had no idea about Ramsay's true nature and honestly believed what he told show!Sansa in Episode 4. Aidan goes even further and claims Show!LF cares about Sansa more than anyone else and that he's obviously interested in her. So, no, there's no explanation of LF's role in this storyline.

This last part, I'm not sure, but If I recall correctly, Aidan even said that if he knew, he wouldn't have put Sansa in Winterfell. So much for Master Manipulator.

The worst part about this is that if they want, they will suddenly change it without necessary reason given. I wouldn't be surprised that next year we see another "creative solution" without an actual logic.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

The worst part about this is that if they want, they will suddenly change it without necessary reason given. I wouldn't be surprised that next year we see another "creative solution" without an actual logic.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa's "reset" at the end of the season just to retcon her with her book!storyline.

[TheCasualObserver]

It strikes me as very strange that so many posts that attribute epithets like 'master spy' to LF in the same posts appear to assume that he's telling people the truth about what he knows or what he thinks is best, and imply that because Sansa held power over him in one instance, that that wasn't exactly what he wanted.

Sansa certainly thought she was learning the game, and she was better at it in season 4 than season 3, but does it not seem more likely that she was simply placed in situations that led her to perform exactly the actions he wanted?

Bizarre.

Except, in the case of the Lords of the Vale, Sansa did have power over him. Without her testimony (and without Merillion as a fall guy) LF is in all likelihood condemned to die. Similarly, if Sansa recants her testimony LF is screwed, at best losing the Vale and become a wanted man and at worst is simply executed. You might argue that LF is a master manipulator who used the Vale Lords to make Sansa think she had power over him but that cannot change the fact that LF is in genuine peril and it's a threat which does not simply go away with time.

His only hope is to keep Sansa loyal to him (which marrying her to an unknown quantity does not help in any way) or have her killed to bury the secret... which wouldn't give him the North and would badly damage how the Vale saw him, considering Sansa was last seen safe in his company.

[Lord Damian]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa's "reset" at the end of the season just to retcon her with her book!storyline.

They have deviated too much from her book arc to make that possible. If she lives and it looks like that is an 50/50 as she might become Lady Stonheart herself, Littlefinger has the larger army of the 3 approaching or at Winterfell so he may take possession of her whether she likes it or not, if she stays. If she goes, she would be sought after by Littlefinger for many reasons, all of them are personal and greedy. They could never reset her after this. No way. Re-direct is more like it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa's "reset" at the end of the season just to retcon her with her book!storyline.

Actually, the other day I was wondering/fearing that, at the end of the show, when her arc is resolved, she might be given some cheesy line, at the moment she ends up with the person she ends up with, like "This is my real first time because I love you yada yada..".

[Lord Damian]

Actually, the other day I was wondering/fearing that, at the end of the show, when her arc is resolved, she might be given some cheesy line, at the moment she ends up with the person she ends up with, like "This is my real first time because I love you yada yada..".

Well, who knows? I think in the Books she will find love and happiness but die tragically. the Show, they might have her with the Imp the way they write him as Mr Wonderful etc. Personally, with all they have put her through, she may as well be killed and become Lady Stoneheart, she already has every reason in the World to now become a cold hearted creature. There will be no Prince Charming for her.

[nfe]

I call bull**** on "laws prohibiting" the producers. Art is art, and you can show the seedy, ILLEGAL part of a story. Now, yes, perhaps there are laws protecting the ACTORS, but even that would be restricted to nudity/performance only, not "off screen" story telling.

And it's very simple to cast an adult who can pass for a minor in a disturbing scene. NO LAW against that.

Actually, if you are filming or broadcasting in the UK you can't depict sexual conduct between minors even if the actors portraying them are overage. Quite a bit was made about this before season 1 when producers were explaining the aging up of Dany, and as a result, Robb and Jon.

Except, in the case of the Lords of the Vale, Sansa did have power over him. Without her testimony (and without Merillion as a fall guy) LF is in all likelihood condemned to die. Similarly, if Sansa recants her testimony LF is screwed, at best losing the Vale and become a wanted man and at worst is simply executed. You might argue that LF is a master manipulator who used the Vale Lords to make Sansa think she had power over him but that cannot change the fact that LF is in genuine peril and it's a threat which does not simply go away with time.

However, this simply ignores the fact that people can regularly be manipulated confidentally when logic would suggest they have the power. Women who repeatedly fail to report spousal abuse when given every opportunity, for instance.

[WSmith84]

The problem with Sansa in Winterfell is that her being there defies all logic. LF, whether he cares for Sansa or not, would not needlessly risk a piece as important as Sansa Stark. And putting her in Winterfell is a risk to her life whether he knows about Ramsey's nature or not. He knows that Stannis is marching on WF and that there will be a battle. She will also be surrounded by enemies, even if LF doesn't know the exact nature of the danger.

Putting Sansa in WF just risks her life and, as far as I can see, achieves nothing that couldn't be achieved by keeping her in the Vale.

[Lord Damian]

Although the show makes up for this situation in that Littlefinger was surprised that there was a messege at Witnerfell brought to them from the Vale from King's Landing. It was from Cersei and he HAD TO LEAVE SANSA THERE ALONE, and while he was gone, she was married to Ramsay and raped. Now, does anyone think that Littlefinger already received that note and he sent it to Winterfell ahead of him and Sansa's arrival to give him and excuse to leave her there? Again, we are talking about the show so logic in why he even took her there need not apply but was this a ploy the show writters wrote to give him a way out of there?

[TheKitttenGuard]

Although the show makes up for this situation in that Littlefinger was surprised that there was a messege at Witnerfell brought to them from the Vale from King's Landing. It was from Cersei and he HAD TO LEAVE SANSA THERE ALONE, and while he was gone, she was married to Ramsay and raped. Now, does anyone think that Littlefinger already received that note and he sent it to Winterfell ahead of him and Sansa's arrival to give him and excuse to leave her there? Again, we are talking about the show so logic in why he even took her there need not apply but was this a ploy the show writters wrote to give him a way out of there?

The scene before had Cersei tell Qyburn to send for LF and it was after they arrived in WF. So that will be no.

[Lord Damian]

The scene before had Cersei tell Qyburn to send for LF and it was after they arrived in WF. So that will be no.

but the timing could be off. I would normally agree with you on this subject but Littlefinger seems to be making so many mistakes that I find it hard to believe. If that is the case though. Did Littlefinger actually intend for Sansa to marry and bed Ramsay?

[Pc2004]

I tend to believe LF had some idea about Ramsay being sadistic but assumed Sansa was such a key piece to controlling the north that she would not be forced to do anything or abused. I fully think LF has some creepy thing for Sansa and intended on her not having yet married or consummated by the time he returned. His end goal seems to be as much power as possible and to have Sansa too. He obviously had a thing for Lysa and catelyn too and they are gone. I think he views Sansa as the ultimate pawn and also the ultimate virginal dream. He can shape her and mold her into what he wants and can rule with her too. Or that is my views on the subject. I am only partly through book 5 so please correct me if I have stated incorrectly. I am sorry for any ignorance