Paris implications continued

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

The solution to that would seem obvious: maybe don't treat them like shit so they can be convinced to attack their own country

Are you actually suggesting that the reason these people have engaged in terrorism is primarily because their home countries have treated them like shit? And are you suggesting that's true specifically of the Boston Marathon bombers? The Fort Hood shooter? The three Garland, Texas shooters? 

I'm serious. I'm not attempting to put words into your mouth, but that honestly seems to me to be what you are suggesting and I want to make sure I am understanding you. 

[Relic]

The race to the bottom of the sewer is on!

A Top Tennessee Republican Lawmaker Has Proposed Using the TN National Guard to Round Up Every Syrian Refugee in the State.

I seem to remember reading in my history book in school about a time when we rounded up people of a certain group over fear of that group and it didn't go so well.

I've been ashamed to be an American many times in my life, but maybe never more than now. 

[All-for-Joffrey]

Meanwhile Trump wants to track American Muslims in databases. That moment comparing Trump's campaign to Nazi Germany ceases to be hyperbole.

Trump, who also said this week that he would consider shutting down mosques,

said in an interview with Yahoo News published Thursday

that "we're going to have to look at a lot of things very closely" when asked about a national database for Muslims.[/quote]

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I've been ashamed to be an American many times in my life, but maybe never more than now. 

Oh I'm sure you'll find more things to be ashamed about in the run up to the election. Especially when Trump/Cruz becomes the nominee.

Meanwhile Trump wants to track American Muslims in databases. That moment comparing Trump's campaign to Nazi Germany ceases to be hyperbole.
 

See. It only took 1 post to get worse.
 

Edited to add:

Man that article was scary. Also, a strange dichotomy is emerging on the right:

Background checks on refugees who could harm Americans: Good

Background checks on gun sales that could harm Americans: Bad

National registration for all Muslims: Good

National registration of gun owners: Bad

 

Dark times ahead....

[Shryke]

Are you actually suggesting that the reason these people have engaged in terrorism is primarily because their home countries have treated them like shit? And are you suggesting that's true specifically of the Boston Marathon bombers? The Fort Hood shooter? The three Garland, Texas shooters? 

I'm serious. I'm not attempting to put words into your mouth, but that honestly seems to me to be what you are suggesting and I want to make sure I am understanding you. 

I'm suggesting that it can certainly be an issue. To circle back to the thread topic, France has issues with it's muslim minorities for exactly this reason.

[Relic]

Oh I'm sure you'll find more things to be ashamed about in the run up to the election. Especially when Trump/Cruz becomes the nominee.

See. It only took 1 post to get worse.

I mean in general. The rhetoric and hysteria about closing the borders to refugees is even more cowardly and FUCKING DUMB than the Ebola hysteria of last year. I've read so many hateful, fearful, and idiotic things written by Americans in the past few days that I am down right depressed. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

I mean in general. The rhetoric and hysteria about closing the borders to refugees is even more cowardly and FUCKING DUMB than the Ebola hysteria of last year. I've read so many hateful, fearful, and idiotic things written by Americans in the past few days that I am down right depressed. 

Imagine if ISIS hits inside the U.S. The right rage machine will go nuts.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Not entirely. It's quite possible that that he'll spend those years accepting the migrants in question only to have them kicked out in the half year after the election.

Oh? As far as I know there have only been calls to halt acceptance of refugees, is Le Pen promising ethnic cleansing on top of that now?

[Seli]

I'm suggesting that it can certainly be an issue. To circle back to the thread topic, France has issues with it's muslim minorities for exactly this reason.

And Belgium, and the Netherlands (all countries that have parties with a significant part of the vote that have a anti-Muslim streak to say the least).

Of course not all people radicalize to the extent of terrorism, but it doesn't take many. And the negativity people from these communities face every day, even when trying their best to integrate, can't be easy.

[Altherion]

Oh? As far as I know there have only been calls to halt acceptance of refugees, is Le Pen promising ethnic cleansing on top of that now?

It's not clear. Time has a statement by Le Pen here. Her proposals are:

From here we must take a series of common-sense steps: We must reinvest in our police forces, our border security, our military. We must reverse a decade of disastrous budgetary decisions. We must reclaim our national borders permanently and rescind French citizenship to dual-national jihadists because they do not deserve to be considered French. We must close radical mosques, which are a site of hate. We must stop welcoming thousands of migrants and regain our national sovereignty.

However, Hollande's massive shift to the right effectively adopts the heavy spending on security and rescinding of French citizenship into his own platform so she won't be able to differentiate much based on that. It would not be unreasonable to expect her to move further to the right and the refugees are one of the few areas where she can profitably do that.

[Fragile Bird]

So what would you do?

 

Jesus christ, this is a simple fucking question.

Back to this question...I see Hilary Clinton has a 24 step plan.
http://qz.com/554841/hillary-clinton-has-a-24-step-plan-to-defeat-isil/

[Fez]

Meanwhile Trump wants to track American Muslims in databases. That moment comparing Trump's campaign to Nazi Germany ceases to be hyperbole.
 

That's a weird interview. Trump definitely said it, so fuck him. But it didn't seem like it was something even on his radar until Yahoo asked him about it, and his whole campaign relies on him having the maximum amount of xenophobia so he ran with it. In fact, it wasn't something anyone was talking about until Yahoo brought it up, so why did they bring it up?

I've seen a few New York Times journalists wondering about this on twitter.

[All-for-Joffrey]

That's a weird interview. Trump definitely said it, so fuck him. But it didn't seem like it was something even on his radar until Yahoo asked him about it, and his whole campaign relies on him having the maximum amount of xenophobia so he ran with it. In fact, it wasn't something anyone was talking about until Yahoo brought it up, so why did they bring it up?

I've seen a few New York Times journalists wondering about this on twitter.

Yeah; it was an incredibly unprofessional and irresponsible leading question. Bloomberg did the same thing when they asked Sanders's campaign manager "isn't Hillary Clinton a craven hypocrite and opportunist" and the campaign manager repeated "a craven, hypocrite? That's kind of harsh." 

My guess is the reporter knew Trump would act supportive of it and then boom, he gets a compelling headline with a bunch of clicks. Never mind the fact that a substantial portion of the race-baiting Tea Party Trump/Carson/Cruz base will now be calling for tracking Muslims in databases and the aforementioned candidates will now likely have to propose it or at least pretend it's a reasonable idea. 

[peterbound]

I'm suggesting that it can certainly be an issue. To circle back to the thread topic, France has issues with it's muslim minorities for exactly this reason.

You're blaming the victims here.  It's like saying a girl deserved to get raped because she wore suggestive clothing. 

 

And how did france 'treat them like shit'?  By allowing free speech?  The banning of the hajib?  I'm not following here.  

[All-for-Joffrey]

 

 

You're blaming the victims here.  It's like saying a girl deserved to get raped because she wore suggestive clothing. 

 

And how did france 'treat them like shit'?  By allowing free speech?  The banning of the hajib?  I'm not following here.  

No he's not. There's a difference between pointing out the fact that Muslims are treated like shit in certain countries and saying it justifies shooting people up. 

 

France has accommodated its almost 5 million Muslims badly. The result has been tension, violence, and radicalization — both among the French right, and among Muslim activists. Today, France experiences that clash across the board: from the economic isolation of Muslim families; to the episodic upsurge of street confrontation between authorities and young men in Muslim neighborhoods, especially on the north side of Paris; to the legal battles over the veil. The two populations — France’s secular and Christian, and France’s Muslim — scarcely mix. When they do, the consequences are explosive, as the  New Yorker’s George Packer recently documented

.

This history helps us understand why France represents a particular target for the Islamic State. These extremists aren’t simply trying to send a general message to President François Hollande about ending the French campaign against the Islamic State. It is now clear that some of the Nov. 13 attackers had lived in France, or even were French citizens. The revulsion that follows the attacks is understandable, but draping one’s face in the tricolor is not a very meaningful response. Total war would be fraught with downside risks. Islamic extremism, in France or in the Middle East, is a catastrophic response to history, not just a near-term response to the use of French fighter-bombers in Syria.

 

I'd classify the hijab ban as more of a women's rights issue in that it's the government telling women what they can and can't wear but I guess you can toss that in there too as it targets Muslim women and has the effect of excluding them from public life if they feel so badly about wearing the hijab.

I think my favorite French law targeting Muslims was one forcing Halal restaurants to provide non-Halal options.  OF course, this is just government-targeted discrimination we're pointing out here. I can only imagine how French Muslims are treated by their fellow Frenchmen. Probably comparable to the way black people and Hispanics here are treated would be my guess. 

Oh right, I forgot. Western countries never have marginalized minorities that society tosses on the periphery! 

[peterbound]

No he's not. There's a difference between pointing out the fact that Muslims are treated like shit in certain countries and saying it justifies shooting people up. 

 

 

I'd classify the hijab ban as more of a women's rights issue in that it's the government telling women what they can and can't wear but I guess you can toss that in there too as it targets Muslim women and has the effect of excluding them from public life if they feel so badly about wearing the hijab.

I think my favorite French law targeting Muslims was one forcing Halal restaurants to provide non-Halal options.  OF course, this is just government-targeted discrimination we're pointing out here. I can only imagine how French Muslims are treated by their fellow Frenchmen. Probably comparable to the way black people and Hispanics here are treated would be my guess. 

Oh right, I forgot. Western countries never have marginalized minorities that society tosses on the periphery! 

If a restaurant refused to serve halal, or kosher options, would you be alright with that?

Or would you want them to provide it?

[Gears of the Beast]

 

I think my favorite French law targeting Muslims was one forcing Halal restaurants to provide non-Halal options.  OF course, this is just government-targeted discrimination we're pointing out here. I can only imagine how French Muslims are treated by their fellow Frenchmen. Probably comparable to the way black people and Hispanics here are treated would be my guess. 

 

Link?

[Shryke]

You're blaming the victims here.  It's like saying a girl deserved to get raped because she wore suggestive clothing. 

And how did france 'treat them like shit'?  By allowing free speech?  The banning of the hajib?  I'm not following here.  

No, it's like saying if you treat your minorities like shit, they will be rather pissed off at you. It ain't like France's treatment of it's minority population hasn't boiled over before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_riots

That, btw, was the last time a state of emergency was declared in France before this recent one.

Unemployed disaffected young people with few prospects, particularly men, are a major target for radicalization. Working to make sure people aren't alienated and disaffected and lacking in opportunities is a good way to combat the radicalization of people.

[peterbound]

Working to make sure people aren't alienated and disaffected and lacking in opportunities is a good way to combat the radicalization of people.

Or not letting groups prone to radicalization into your country?  Seems like that would be stopping the problem before it even starts.  

 

ETA:  It's amazing to me the amount of time and energy we devote to not hurting peoples feelings, and coming up with reasons not to blame the muslim extremists.  It seems to me that this will happen even amongst privileged muslim men raised in a well off environment.  Some people are just drawn to that, and unfortunately parts of Islam are great fuel for their anger. 

[The Anti-Targ]

Oh I'm sure you'll find more things to be ashamed about in the run up to the election. Especially when Trump/Cruz becomes the nominee.

See. It only took 1 post to get worse.
 

Edited to add:

Man that article was scary. Also, a strange dichotomy is emerging on the right:

Background checks on refugees who could harm Americans: Good

Background checks on gun sales that could harm Americans: Bad

National registration for all Muslims: Good

National registration of gun owners: Bad

 

Dark times ahead....

Oh gods, what is going to be done about Muslim gun owners? This will be a nation ending constitutional paradox.

No doubt leftist judicial activism will overturn the People with Turbans Registration Act - sub-title "What do you mean Sikh? that's just Indian for Muslim isn't it?...no I mean Indian from India, not American Indian." Never mind that it would probably be a Supreme court with majority Republican appointed judges. But I wonder if it would still be a 5-4 split.

No doubt there would be a constitutional amendment proposed: When the constitution was written enshrining freedom of religion, it actually only meant Christians. All other religions are from a false god, therefore they cannot be accorded the right to freedom of religion, because they are not religions...Hindus? What? That's just Indian for Indian isn't it?...no I mean Indian from India, not American Indian. What? Jews you say? err well umm, OK, Abrahamic religions are OK...What? Islam is Abrahamic? FUCK! This is sooo hard! Why can't everyone be Christian!?!