Ranking the LotR and Hobbit movies

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Love him or hate him, Tom Bombadil has absolutely no effect on the rest of the story, so cutting him out was umderstandable. The Scouring of the Shire being removed is also fine with me. I don't think it would have translated well to the screen. Sauron's the big baddie and he's gone now, so we should be expecting a wind down to a satisfying ending. Showing the Shire in a complete state would be exhausting - the film is long enough as it is.

[Kindly Old Man]

The Scouring of the Shire being removed is also fine with me. I don't think it would have translated well to the screen. Sauron's the big baddie and he's gone now, so we should be expecting a wind down to a satisfying ending. Showing the Shire in a complete state would be exhausting - the film is long enough as it is.

could have cut out the 15 mins of hobbits jumping on beds and laughing

[Howdyphillip]

Love him or hate him, Tom Bombadil has absolutely no effect on the rest of the story, so cutting him out was umderstandable. The Scouring of the Shire being removed is also fine with me. I don't think it would have translated well to the screen. Sauron's the big baddie and he's gone now, so we should be expecting a wind down to a satisfying ending. Showing the Shire in a complete state would be exhausting - the film is long enough as it is.

Tom Bombadil provided resounding effect through the rest of the story.He was the antithesis of Sauron and established a reason to fight other than just The Shire. 

[HexMachina]

I haven't read the books since the 90s so it's hazy, but didn't the Barrow monsters involve, of at least lead directly to Tom

I remember going to Fellowship in the cinema and Tom's adaptation was what I was most looking forward to, like just the curiosity of how the fark were they going to put that character on screen, so it was disappointing. In hindsight i'm glad they left him out. Who could you even cast for him? Brian Blessed is the only person that comes to mind.

Tom rescues them yes. But, I'm not totally averse to changes - I'm sure there would be a way to have them get away without Tom, if I gave it a little thought. But the creepiness of the barrow downs was something I did enjoy. If we stuck with the film version, they could have ended up there while fleeing the Ringwraiths in the Forest (not vastly different to the books when it comes down to it). I wasn't arguing for the inclusion of Bombadil on screen. While I personally enjoyed that part, I know it's not really for the films. 

The Scouring of the Shire is arguably one of the saddest omissions for me, and I think it absolutely works and could probably have fit in with some cutting in other areas (like 90% of Legolas for example...)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I understand and can see why the Scouring of the Shire was cut, however, I think cutting it was a mistake.

[Which Tyler]

I haven't read the books since the 90s so it's hazy, but didn't the Barrow monsters involve, of at least lead directly to Tom

I remember going to Fellowship in the cinema and Tom's adaptation was what I was most looking forward to, like just the curiosity of how the fark were they going to put that character on screen, so it was disappointing. In hindsight i'm glad they left him out. Who could you even cast for him? Brian Blessed is the only person that comes to mind.

That bit's easy - Spike Milligan, the part was practically written for him

[sologdin]

Tom Bombadil provided resounding effect through the rest of the story.He was the antithesis of Sauron and established a reason to fight other than just The Shire. 

with you. am an unrepentant bombadilite. (bombadilist?  bombadildo?)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I love Bombadil but I can see why he was cut.

[Spring Bass]

I understand and can see why the Scouring of the Shire was cut, however, I think cutting it was a mistake.

They might have been able to film it for an extended version, but the third movie was already three hours and 20 minutes long. There was just no room, although they might have been able to fit it if they'd cut out most of Faramir from Two Towers and ended it with the Shelob sequence. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

1. The Fellowship of the Ring. Curiously, I didn't think much of it when I saw it in the theatre - I recall feeling downright embarrassed by Galadriel in a microwave. I've subsequently realised it is the best of the three.

2. The Two Towers. The other bona fide classic.

[Insert gaping abyss]

3. The Desolation of Smaug. I think this placement says more about how much I hate ROTK than anything else. On the other hand, I think Thranduil's performance alone makes this one the best of the Hobbit movies.

4. Return of the King. Denethor - Ugh. Happy cheery ending - Ugh. The Dawnless Day becomes the Slightly Overcast Day - Ugh.

[Insert another gaping abyss]

5. An Unexpected Journey. Bloated as anything, but at least it has Riddles.

6. The Battle of Five Armies. Ugh.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

They might have been able to film it for an extended version, but the third movie was already three hours and 20 minutes long. There was just no room, although they might have been able to fit it if they'd cut out most of Faramir from Two Towers and ended it with the Shelob sequence. 

Cut the skull avalanche and the Faramir's incredibly stupid suicidal/murderous charge along with close ups of Denethor's mouth.  Cut "go home Sam".  Cut Elrond showing up at Dunharrow.  Cut the lighting of the beacons, while iconic that scene made no sense.  Cut the drinking game with Legolas, Eomer, and Gimli.  Cut Legolas trunk surfing.  Cut hobbits jumping on the bed.  Then they may have figured a way to work in Scouring of the Shire.

[The Marquis de Leech]

As for Jackson, it's not simply the decline in quality I've come to loathe about him. It's also the fact that he's become a union-busting arsehole who (in collaboration with our Tory Government) single-handedly de-unionised the New Zealand film industry.

[SeanF]

RotK, while having some good moments, has real problems mostly from Jackson's interpretation of Characters in RotK. He made Gondor seem weak water and completely obviated the sacrifices made by the defenders Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim who broke the seige with the scrubbing bubbles the of death.

I really enjoyed FOTR and TTT, leaving aside the fact that Treebeard was portrayed as being as thick as nine planks.

But, ROTK, oh dear! Denethor was just horrible. The Ride of the Rohirrim and the Battle of the Pelennor (both well done IMHO) were rendered pointless by the scrubbing bubbles of death. Sam and Frodo's travels through Mordor were a wretched cut and paste job; "go home, Sam!" was stupid. Aragorn charging an army that outnumbered him 20 to 1 was ridiculous.

[BrettG]

BrettG,

Okay, what is being "book snobish" about disliking the scrubbing bubbles of death, recognizing how it obviated the sacrifice of the defenders of Minas Tirith and the Riders of Rohan or perferring the ever more subtle and interesting book Denethor to the carpet chewing lunatic portrayed by Peter Jackson.

I wouldn't call either of those criticisms book snobbery!  I think both are perfectly legitimate criticisms, and I'll even go so far as to say I basically agree with the Army of the Dead issue.  I didn't mind Denethor, as I think it's a different interpretation of the same thing that happens in the books.  Denethor in the books has been corrupted by the palantir and is falling deeper and deeper into despair, and Faramir's apparent death is what pushes him over the edge and turns him suicidal and leads to the pyre.  I wish the film had included the palantir, since they strongly hint at it, and it helps explain the madness, but beyond that I didn't have a problem with the character.  He was mad in both the book and the film, for the same reasons, and the only difference is that Tolkien portrays a more subtle madness and Peter Jackson/John Noble made the madness somewhat more overt.  I enjoy both versions, if you don't like the film interpretation, hey, no problem.  I can see why it could be considered over the top.

I would call being upset about Tom Bombadil's deletion book snobbish, as there's no way that sequence could ever have worked on film, and that's not even considering how badly it would destroy the pacing at the start of a movie.  I would honestly also consider being disappointed about the scouring of the Shire pretty book snobbish, as I don't think there's any conceivable way it could have worked in the film and it is also a pacing nightmare.  But that would probably be my least favorite chapter in the entire series, so I might be biased on that account.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

BrettG,

Denethor in the books is noble but despairing and only at the end does he fall to madness.  Book Denethor certainly doesn't feast away while sending his only living son and a big chunk if his army to almost certain death.  He sends Faramir out to lead the battle at the causeway forts.  Not on an insane cavalry charge into a fortified position in broad daylight.

They aren't different interpretations of the same character.  They are as different as night and day.

 

[BrettG]

I certainly got the impression from the books that sending Faramir to reinforce the Rammas and outer walls was a suicide mission and Denethor knew it.  Certainly not as direct as sending a line of horsemen into an overrun Osgiliath, but the book makes it fairly clear that Faramir is on a fool's errand and it's entirely possible he won't return.  And while Denethor was clearly a good man with noble intentions once, by the time Gandalf and Pippin reach him he's already gone.  There's nothing in any of his chapters in ROTK that is designed to make you like him, sympathize with him, or see him as anything other than a loose cannon at first, and a straight-up obstacle and villain by the end.  It's tragic, certainly, but I don't think the films painting him as a sinister guy is some wild invention.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

BrettG,

I disagree.  It's clear Gandalf respects Denethor and values his opinion.  Pippin is impressed by Denethor up until he falls into madness.  In the Film neither Gandalf or Pippin show the crazy man we are presented with much respect.  In the Book while Denethor is despairing he is preparing his defenses and seeking to fight to the end.  Gandalf and Pippin see the beacons being lit as they arrive at MT and watch the messanger with the red arrow speed away towards Edoras.  The stilted presentation of Denethor in the film's contributed mightily toward the perception that the Southern Dunedine as being inept idiots. 

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

The suicide charge in the film makes no sense, but I love it anyway.

Again, with the Scouring of the Shire, I don't think it would have worked. I'd have loved to see it work, but I understand that it would have been jarring with the happy scenes preceding it. Of course they probably could have kept the whole ending bittersweet, but I think most audience members who hadn't read the book wouldn't like it as much.

[SeanF]

I certainly got the impression from the books that sending Faramir to reinforce the Rammas and outer walls was a suicide mission and Denethor knew it. Certainly not as direct as sending a line of horsemen into an overrun Osgiliath, but the book makes it fairly clear that Faramir is on a fool's errand and it's entirely possible he won't return. And while Denethor was clearly a good man with noble intentions once, by the time Gandalf and Pippin reach him he's already gone. There's nothing in any of his chapters in ROTK that is designed to make you like him, sympathize with him, or see him as anything other than a loose cannon at first, and a straight-up obstacle and villain by the end. It's tragic, certainly, but I don't think the films painting him as a sinister guy is some wild invention.

Book Denethor weighs up the pros and cons of defending the Rammas, before going ahead. He evacuates the women and children from Minas Tirith. He organises a cavalry charge, led by Imrahil, to rescue soldiers who are retreating across the Pelennor Fields. He summons aid from Rohan. As a commander, he knows what he's doing.

Film Denethor is mean, cowardly, treacherous, and useless. His soldiers should have run him through.

[BrettG]

Scot,

Gandalf did respect Denethor, and Pippin is at first impressed with Denethor, but by the end of the first scene between the three that is very clearly changed.  Denethor questions Pippin for an hour and completely ignores Gandalf, who already made a fairly pointed comment that "I have not ridden hither from Isengard...with the speed of wind, only to bring you one small warrior."  During Pippin's questioning, Pippin feels "stabbed ever and anon by his shrewd questions" while Gandalf is "holding in check a rising wrath and impatience."  It's very clear from the dialogue that follows that Gandalf is disappointed and frustrated with Denethor, and Pippin is not impressed with him in a good way, but more intimidated and awestruck.  Denethor is not presented to the reader as a strong, noble, good character, from the first time he's presented in the first chapter.

The points about Denethor being better at defending his city made by you and Sean are good ones, however.  He does evacuate the women and children, a good move, and does request aid by himself, both of which are changed in the film for dubious reasons.  So the point about him being a good commander is well taken.  I'm willing to forgive the film simplifying a tertiary character in this case, but if that aspect of it rankles with people, I get that and respect it.