Lost Melnibonean Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Actually, IIRC Jorah said the caravan had just arrived, so perhaps the merchant intended to seek her out shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ravenstark Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Honestly, Doran was right. The Martells were the best chance of Dany in Westeros. The WTF moment was her refusing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Thornes Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 But the top prize goes to Doran Martell: send your kid halfway around the world with a moldy piece of paper that says her dead older brother was to marry his old sister and this is somehow going to convince Dany that she needs to marry Quent and race her and her dragons back to Dorne? Serious? Any others? This was also a big WTF moment for me. Also- when Quentyn decides to go "get" the dragons, with what, for me, is the inexplicable reasoning that by taming Dany's dragons and rescuing them, he will prove to her that he is a worthy husband for her. I just re-read the chapter and the notes I made along the way. Deginitely one of my biggest WTF moments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 5 hours ago, The Mountain That Flies said: Literally everything Doran Martell does. His plans could (kind of) work in an ideal world, but he never actually does the practical stuff needed to make them a reality, which is just baffling. Stannis not bothering to see what happened to the rest of Renly's troops before marching on King's Landing. I get that he was in a rush and assumed his envoys would bring them over, but why would not be certain before leaving your impregnable stronghold and risking the army you just acquired? Ned telling Cersei about his plans. As honor-obsessed as Ned is, he's a good battle tactician. Why would telling your enemy your battle plans not encourage them to outflank you? In addition to his envoys, Stannis had scouts, but their ability to perform was compromised . . . “It looks as though half the kingswood is burning.” “Lord Stannis wants to smoke out the Imp’s savages.” Dontos swayed as he spoke, one hand on the trunk of a chestnut tree. A wine stain discolored the red-and-yellow motley of his tunic. “They kill his scouts and raid his baggage train. ..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not a kneeler Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 The Old Bear. practically everything he does make me irritated. Why did he drag the great strength of the Night Watch beyond the Wall when so many signs pointed to a growing threat from the wildlings and also the Others? Ned went south even though he saw signs that were unsettling. That's understandable. The Old Bear actually saw the wights attacking, yet forth he went. He knew the wildlings were moving, he had lost a lot of rangers bit by bit. His job, as he understood it was to protest the Wall. He misunderstood everything from every bit of information he had. He was supposed to be the best the Nightwatch had, but he was a doofus. No wonder the whole thing fell apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden-Mackenzie Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 19 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: Qhorin taking Jon with him on the ranging. I'm curious - why is this a WTF moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 18 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Why would Robert have executed LF? Years of bad council. 1 minute ago, Eden-Mackenzie said: I'm curious - why is this a WTF moment? Qhorin chooses Jon for absolutely no reason. Jon - who has never been beyond the Wall and was just initiated into the night's watch - has no business being included. And then Qhorin gives his life so that Jon can live. Really really dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 58 minutes ago, RoamingRonin said: Years of bad council. Qhorin chooses Jon for absolutely no reason. Jon - who has never been beyond the Wall and was just initiated into the night's watch - has no business being included. And then Qhorin gives his life so that Jon can live. Really really dumb. Actually, I think Qhorin was thinking of an infiltration from the beginning,which is why he chose Jon. He is brand new to the watch, which makes his defection plausible, and Mormont has great respect for him, which indicates he is probably pretty capable. His release of Ygritte made his acceptance by the wildlings even more likely. As to the OP,I would say Robb sending Theon to his father, Catelyn releasing Jaime, and Ned refusing Renly's offer of a coup. Even given what they knew at the time, these were poor ideas. Much of what is being discussed here is stupid in hindsight, or given what the reader, but not the character knows. For example, Ned though Robert would have his back when he confronted Cersei. His WTF moment came when Robert died and he didn't seriously revise his plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CryptofCthulhu Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 22 hours ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: The more you think about this the dumber it is. Ned is the Hand of the King, and by extension responsible for the running of the Baratheon rule. Once Ned found out that there was a legitimate threat to Robert's line of succession (Joffery is not a Baratheon), and that the Queen, and LC of the King's Guard were traitors then the first thing he should have done is sequester the King to keep him safe (his King's Guard has been compromised and his wife has access to his bed) and have them all arrested. The FIRST THING instead, he pussy foots around, warns the Queen (who's family is the MOST POWERFUL family in Westeros) and generally fucks everything up. Damn it Ned, you are a doofus. Robert was better at leading an army than ruling a kingdom, Ned is basically the same kind of person. I think his sense of honor and duty would have at least given him a little better instinct on what to expect from Cersei and the others. He was either too stubborn or his decision doesn't make complete sense. He basically told the enemy the game plan before stepping onto the field of battle. He never trusted Little Finger and there is no way he would trust someone like Varys completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the trees have eyes Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: Years of bad council. Qhorin chooses Jon for absolutely no reason. Jon - who has never been beyond the Wall and was just initiated into the night's watch - has no business being included. And then Qhorin gives his life so that Jon can live. Really really dumb. Qhorin chooses Jon because he is a warg and he sees that as an advantage. And indeed Qhorin and his scouts never even set eyes on Mance's army before turning round because Ghost does the recon for them and Jon "sees" what the threat is and where it is via Ghostcam. Now Qhorin couldn't know this would be how it would pan out but he was hoping for some kind of edge and he got it. That edge was of course neutralised by another warg, Orell, who went into the eagle after his death but Qhorin was right that Jon would give them something extra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Qhorin was peeling an egg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden-Mackenzie Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 10 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: Years of bad council. Qhorin chooses Jon for absolutely no reason. Jon - who has never been beyond the Wall and was just initiated into the night's watch - has no business being included. And then Qhorin gives his life so that Jon can live. Really really dumb. Who should Qhorin have chosen instead to infiltrate the Wilding army? When the men from the Shadow Tower met up with the men from Castle Black, Qhorin and Mormont went into Mormont's tent to discuss what Qhorin's Rangers had seen and their plans moving forward. Jeor knew Jon, Qhorin knew Mance, and the two of them together decided Jon was the best man for the job, there's no way Qhorin just decided to take the Lord Commander's steward without clearing it with him first. Qhorin didn't give his life so Jon could live. Qhorin gave his life so Jon could infiltrate the Wilding army, discover their plans, and then warn the Nights Watch, all of which he did. The fact the Wildings are now south of the Wall is besides the point, as the circumstances of their crossing were completely different than Mance's planned invasion, and the fact that Bowen Marsh et al. are so opposed to the situation is simply due to shortsightedness and xenophobia. I agreed with just about everything else on your list, but this was one decision that actually makes sense to me, especially in hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 I want to add Tyrion bringing Shae to court to my list of WTF moments. 2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said: Qhorin chooses Jon because he is a warg and he sees that as an advantage. And indeed Qhorin and his scouts never even set eyes on Mance's army before turning round because Ghost does the recon for them and Jon "sees" what the threat is and where it is via Ghostcam. Now Qhorin couldn't know this would be how it would pan out but he was hoping for some kind of edge and he got it. That edge was of course neutralised by another warg, Orell, who went into the eagle after his death but Qhorin was right that Jon would give them something extra. I figured someone would say this. Qhorin doesn't choose Jon because he is a warg. He never asks Jon to use his wolf for scouting purposes. IIRC, Qhorin doesn't know about Ghost until after Jon tells him later on. 12 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said: Who should Qhorin have chosen instead to infiltrate the Wilding army? When the men from the Shadow Tower met up with the men from Castle Black, Qhorin and Mormont went into Mormont's tent to discuss what Qhorin's Rangers had seen and their plans moving forward. Jeor knew Jon, Qhorin knew Mance, and the two of them together decided Jon was the best man for the job, there's no way Qhorin just decided to take the Lord Commander's steward without clearing it with him first. Qhorin didn't give his life so Jon could live. Qhorin gave his life so Jon could infiltrate the Wilding army, discover their plans, and then warn the Nights Watch, all of which he did. The fact the Wildings are now south of the Wall is besides the point, as the circumstances of their crossing were completely different than Mance's planned invasion, and the fact that Bowen Marsh et al. are so opposed to the situation is simply due to shortsightedness and xenophobia. I agreed with just about everything else on your list, but this was one decision that actually makes since to me, especially in hindsight. Qhorin's initial mission had nothing to do with infiltrating the wildling camp. He only encouraged Jon to do that after it was obvious they were going to be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 On 29/01/2016 at 9:36 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said: The more you think about this the dumber it is. Ned is the Hand of the King, and by extension responsible for the running of the Baratheon rule. Once Ned found out that there was a legitimate threat to Robert's line of succession (Joffery is not a Baratheon), and that the Queen, and LC of the King's Guard were traitors then the first thing he should have done is sequester the King to keep him safe (his King's Guard has been compromised and his wife has access to his bed) and have them all arrested. The FIRST THING instead, he pussy foots around, warns the Queen (who's family is the MOST POWERFUL family in Westeros) and generally fucks everything up. Damn it Ned, you are a doofus. His later thought about Cersei not fleeing are as hilarious if not more so: Quote Is this brave show for my benefit? he wondered. If so, Cersei was a greater fool than he'd imagined. Damn her, he thought, why is the woman not fled? I have given her chance after chance . . . Apparently, the only reason Ned came up with on why Cersei didn't run away was that she was stupid. And that was after Robert had died. The idea that Cersei was going to fight for the throne evidently didn't pip into poor Ned's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 11 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: Years of bad council. Not that I disagree with you since we know much more than Robert but the dude increased crown revenue 10x as master of coin. That's somewhere between OG status and actual tomfoolery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Doran Martell's entire existence is so baffling to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruzaderJC Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 The Oberyn/Mountain deal was just like when people point guns at others in movies, but stand close enough for Bourne or whoever to snatch them out of their hands. Bullets shoot very far very fast, and you can yell at someone just as effectively from far away. Stay out of arm's reach dummies. It's like you're just trying to advance the plot or something. A little off ASOIAF. I always wondered this too. I play. Paintball a lot. The first instinct you have when you bump into an enemy up close is to back up and squeeze the trigger like crazy. In movies, it seems like the bad guys love to run up to you and point the gun directly at your head and hesitate. Also, when the good guy is surrounded, all of a sudden all the bad guys decide, "hmm, let's take him prisoner now. I'm glad everyone is in agreement and no one was trigger happy enough to justifiably shoot the guy that just killed 20 of our comrades." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainGhost Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Stannis refusing to ally with Robb because he thinks Robb is trying to steal half his kingdom when he knows full well that Robb believes Joffrey to be the true king and Joffrey just killed his father. Ned trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Tyrion trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Tywin trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Ser Rodrik leaving Winterfell and the Princes undefended. The Freys creating blood feuds with every House in the North and Riverlands when their castle lies right in the middle of the two regions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden-Mackenzie Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 5 hours ago, RoamingRonin said: Qhorin's initial mission had nothing to do with infiltrating the wildling camp. He only encouraged Jon to do that after it was obvious they were going to be killed. Qhorin took his best interrogator, his best archer, and his best climber with him; these men were chosen with care, I just cannot see him choosing Jon on a whim. Qhorin and Jeor were having a closed door meeting, so we do not know what they discussed before Jon entered, but from what Jon overheard it seems as though Qhorin expected he might die on this mission, and he was okay with that: "We can only die. Why else do we don these black cloaks, but to die in defense of the realm?" ... "Be like we shall all die then. Our dying will buy time for our brothers on the Wall... Our lives will be coin well spent." They needed information as to what Mance was planning on doing, if they could get it through scouting and interrogation, great, but if not, he needed a contingency plan. Jon was his contingency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewton Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Jon Snow locking up his presentient wolf because of a goddamn pig. Lock the damn pig up. Also signaled what was to come a mile away, so it was poorly handled to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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