A Paleolithic tribe still in pre-history!

[DireWolfSpirit]

The Last Jarawa- Andaman, India

 

[Corvinus85]

On 3/14/2016 at 10:25 AM, maarsen said:

Paleolithic means they use chipped stone tools. If they were using polished stone then they would be neolithic. Steel tipped arrows puts them firmly into the modern age, especially if they in fact do live in isolation.

 

On 3/14/2016 at 0:43 PM, DireWolfSpirit said:

Read the caption of the tribesman pictured. It shows him using a piece of foraged metal to chip a stone arrowhead I believe. Regardless the paleolithic tag comes from the article. They are grouped as uncontacted peoples such as some of the very deep jungle Amazonian tribes.

You got that backwards. He uses a stone to shape a piece of foraged metal. That spear tip is clearly steel. And there is a plastic jug next to them. So I think that puts them fully in the not so isolated category. Their way of life may still be unchanged, though, so it's a question of whether or not you can call them a paleolithic society despite their use of modern tools which they only scavenge, not actually make.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Just awesome they didn't accidentally exist on an oil field or copper mine, else they'd have long ago suffered for their barbaric aggression towards innocent traellers

Yes I suppose had they been in a strategic area the worlds powers would've needed to "bomb them to bring them democracy" or some similar altruistic measure of cleansing.

Maybe this is an example of what Vonnegut so eloquently described as "bombing them back to the stone age because of petroleum."?

[DireWolfSpirit]

9 hours ago, Corvinus said:

 

You got that backwards. He uses a stone to shape a piece of foraged metal. That spear tip is clearly steel. And there is a plastic jug next to them. So I think that puts them fully in the not so isolated category. Their way of life may still be unchanged, though, so it's a question of whether or not you can call them a paleolithic society despite their use of modern tools which they only scavenge, not actually make.

Yeah I thought I had corrected myself in a later post but maybe that was one of the ones that got deleted? Anyways I did notice the tip is clearly metal in the picture and he's shaping it with a stone object. I'll leave how to classify them to the anthropologist types. They have had contact just as some of the Amazonian tribes have, at what point they are no longer considered isolated I couldn't say. There is this ongoing concern about not interfering with their way of life. I did notice some older press where the Indian govt. had to put a halt to some sort of "human safari" b.s. where people must've been trying to get a glimpse of them like they were some sort of endangered herd. That sounds so apalling, really makes one worry about the future for them.

[maarsen]

15 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Yeah I thought I had corrected myself in a later post but maybe that was one of the ones that got deleted? Anyways I did notice the tip is clearly metal in the picture and he's shaping it with a stone object. I'll leave how to classify them to the anthropologist types. They have had contact just as some of the Amazonian tribes have, at what point they are no longer considered isolated I couldn't say. There is this ongoing concern about not interfering with their way of life. I did notice some older press where the Indian govt. had to put a halt to some sort of "human safari" b.s. where people must've been trying to get a glimpse of them like they were some sort of endangered herd. That sounds so apalling, really makes one worry about the future for them.

The iron age began with lumps of bog iron being worked with whatever tool were handy. Smelting iron ore to get to steel is a much later process. Using stone to work iron definitely puts them in the iron age.

[The Anti-Targ]

it seems rather paternalistic for the govt authorities to prevent the tribe from coming into greater contact with the wider society. Self determination should mean its up to the tribe how it wants to  develop and become more integrated (or not) with modern society. More than likely, if the govt restricts engagement, then what engagement will occur will likely be of the less than savoury kind. As the article mentions, it seems the most common connections they make with outsiders is poachers. And one of the accessories to the murder was plying the Jarawa man with booze.

First bring in education and health care, which they seem to be starting to do. The tribe should be regarded as a child when it comes to it's interaction with modern society. You start out by nurturing a child, educating and feeding it according to its capacity, and vaccinating it against all the life threatening diseases. With time the child grows up and can be exposed to more challenges as it matures and develops understanding. Then eventually the child reaches a stage of maturity where it is no longer dependent on others and can engage with the world independently.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TAT,

You condemn "paternalism" and then say this:

First bring in education and health care, which they seem to be starting to do. The tribe should be regarded as a child when it comes to it's interaction with modern society. You start out by nurturing a child, educating and feeding it according to its capacity, and vaccinating it against all the life threatening diseases. With time the child grows up and can be exposed to more challenges as it matures and develops understanding. Then eventually the child reaches a stage of maturity where it is no longer dependent on others and can engage with the world independently.

[/quote]

Was your irony intentional?

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

10 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

TAT,

You condemn "paternalism" and then say this:

 

The difference is, TAT offers paternalism with an end point, culminating ultimately with this tribe's integration into modern society. The alternative is that this tribe is treated as a perpetual community of moral children, in which they are not held responsible for even the most heinous of moral acts - like murder. 

[Darzin]

I think you guys are mixing up several tribes. There are Andaman islanders who have contact with the government which is where the healthcare and "human safaris" come in, and there is North Sentinel Island which as far as everyone is aware has had no contact with anyone,since the British kidnapped some islanders in the 1880's. They got sick and some died and some were returned to the island. As far as I'm aware they're not isolated by the government it's just they are extremely hostile to outsiders and judging by the poor results of the integration of other tribal groups the government has decided to leave them alone in less they seek contact. 

 

[DireWolfSpirit]

3 hours ago, Darzin said:

I think you guys are mixing up several tribes. There are Andaman islanders who have contact with the government which is where the healthcare and "human safaris" come in, and there is North Sentinel Island which as far as everyone is aware has had no contact with anyone,since the British kidnapped some islanders in the 1880's. They got sick and some died and some were returned to the island. As far as I'm aware they're not isolated by the government it's just they are extremely hostile to outsiders and judging by the poor results of the integration of other tribal groups the government has decided to leave them alone in less they seek contact. 

 

The article was about the Jarawa tribe on South Andaman Island. There's a link to it in the original post. Here's the first few paragraphs of the article-

 

Quote

OGRABRAJ, India — The police on South Andaman Island know what to do when members of the isolated Jarawa tribe venture into the villages that surround them, hoping to snatch rice and other prized goods, like cookies, bananas or, for some reason, red garments.

The policy is to send the Jarawas back into the 300 square miles of forest that has been set aside for the tribe, where they are expected to survive by hunting and gathering, as they have for millenniums. Inspector Rizwan Hassan, whose precinct includes a “buffer zone” beside the tribe’s reserve, is under clear orders: to interfere as little as possible in the traditional life of the tribe, which India prizes as the last remnant of a Paleolithic-era civilization.

This did not prepare him for the criminal complaint that was registered at his station in November. A 5-month-old baby was dead, and witnesses came forward willingly, leaving the police, for the first time in history, confronting the prospect of arresting a Jarawa on suspicion of murder.

The Jarawas, who number about 400 and whom one geneticist described as “arguably the most enigmatic people on our planet,” are believed to have migrated from Africa around 50,000 years ago. They are very dark-skinned, small in stature and until 1998 lived in complete cultural isolation, shooting outsiders with steel-tipped arrows if they came too near.

 

 

[Falcon2908]

I feel that the Sentinelse should be left alone.

[Knute]

People are only being killed by them because they're going there to visit them in the first place; which they shouldn't be doing. I don't think any efforts should be made to contact these people as they are obviously doing well for themselves, and the fear of diseases being spread to an isolated group may spell the end to the group completely.

Perhaps people view their lifestyle of having to kill for food and "raiding" other places as barbaric, but the fact is that when communities like these get "modernized" they become worse than they were. Just like the Native Americans most of these people who are intergrated in to modern society become alcoholics as well as criminals.

[DireWolfSpirit]

The two tribes from the "isolated peoples" wiki site-

 

Edit

Two tribes of the Andaman Islands, in India, have sought to avoid contact with the outside world.

Sentinelese peopleEdit

Main article: Sentinelese people

The Sentinelese continue to actively and violently reject contact. They live in North Sentinel Island, a small and remote island which lies to the west of the southern part of South Andaman Island. They are thought to number 40 to 500 members with a median estimate of 250. Helicopter surveys after the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami indicate the Sentinelese survived, at least initially.

It is estimated that they have lived on their island for 60,000 years. Their language is markedly different even from other languages on the Andamans,^[5] which suggests that they have remained uncontacted for thousands of years. They are thus considered the most isolated people in the world, and they are likely to remain so.^[5]

JarawaEdit

Main article: Jarawa people (Andaman Islands)

Another Andamanese tribe, the Jarawa, live on the main islands. They rejected all contact, but following the completion of a trunk road traversing their territory in 1997, some have begun emerging from the forest into the open.^{[citation needed]} They are thought to number 300 people.

[Knute]

37 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The two tribes from the "isolated peoples" wiki site-

 

Edit

Two tribes of the Andaman Islands, in India, have sought to avoid contact with the outside world.

Sentinelese peopleEdit

Main article: Sentinelese people

The Sentinelese continue to actively and violently reject contact. They live in North Sentinel Island, a small and remote island which lies to the west of the southern part of South Andaman Island. They are thought to number 40 to 500 members with a median estimate of 250. Helicopter surveys after the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami indicate the Sentinelese survived, at least initially.

It is estimated that they have lived on their island for 60,000 years. Their language is markedly different even from other languages on the Andamans,^[5] which suggests that they have remained uncontacted for thousands of years. They are thus considered the most isolated people in the world, and they are likely to remain so.^[5]

JarawaEdit

Main article: Jarawa people (Andaman Islands)

Another Andamanese tribe, the Jarawa, live on the main islands. They rejected all contact, but following the completion of a trunk road traversing their territory in 1997, some have begun emerging from the forest into the open.^{[citation needed]} They are thought to number 300 people.

I hope they do remain isolated as I feel it's better for them in both terms of physical and mental health. It has been shown before how hard it is for these people to adapt to such huge changes. Modern day peoples have had a gradual adjustment to daily technology, but imagine being these guys who have been isolated for thousands of years. I also highly doubt that these individuals suffer from things like depression as well as the daily worries that other people have.

[polishgenius]

3 hours ago, Knute said:

I also highly doubt that these individuals suffer from things like depression as well as the daily worries that other people have.

 

 

They might not have the daily worries we have but I'm reasonably certain that they have other daily worries.

Also, you're saying what- that because their culture didn't gradually grow into technology, they should be kept isolated for the rest of time, whether they want to or not?

[Knute]

2 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

 

They might not have the daily worries we have but I'm reasonably certain that they have other daily worries.

Also, you're saying what- that because their culture didn't gradually grow into technology, they should be kept isolated for the rest of time, whether they want to or not?

They clearly don't want nor do they appreciate people coming to their island as they've attacked people nearly every attempt. I'm not sure how else you'd read that and continued attempts to contact them will lead to continued casualties. Their language is also not very well known nor researched so communication would also be a chore along with the uncertain dangers.

[polishgenius]

7 minutes ago, Knute said:

They clearly don't want nor do they appreciate people coming to their island as they've attacked people nearly every attempt. I'm not sure how else you'd read that and continued attempts to contact them will lead to continued casualties. Their language is also not very well known nor researched so communication would also be a chore along with the uncertain dangers.

The Sentinelese, yes. It seems quite likely that for the foreseeable future- but it's impossible to say forever- they're not wanting to be contacted.

It's a lot less clear with the Jarawa who are the focus of the article that kicked off this topic, though.

[Knute]

Just now, polishgenius said:

The Sentinelese, yes. It seems quite likely that for the foreseeable future- but it's impossible to say forever- they're not wanting to be contacted.

It's a lot less clear with the Jarawa who are the focus of the article that kicked off this topic, though.

The Jarawa mostly got forced out by the construction of various roads throughout their areas. It's impossible to say that they'd have come out willingly and whether they will come out willingly in full numbers.

[Darzin]

22 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

The article was about the Jarawa tribe on South Andaman Island. There's a link to it in the original post. Here's the first few paragraphs of the article-

 

Whoops I apologize for being and idiot.

Also regarding integration I think it's important to remember these tribes are not integrating into a first world country with a social safety net. They are integrating into third world countries as illiterates, who speak a minority language and lack modern skills. Most of the tribes who have been contacted end up having bad outcomes after the cameras go away and the gifts stop coming. The risk of an epidemic is also very high. If they seek  contact they have a right to have it but otherwise I think attempts to contact them are misguided. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

Here's the area of the Islands, it's in the Bay of Bengal-

- Never mind, the boards not letting me post a map image-

Two worrisome developments may be the threat of unwelcome contact from tourist and religious missionaries. I'm sure the majority of people from either of these groups wouldn't intentionally harm the tribes. It's more a case of them being oblivious to the potential harm they pose as outsiders going into a setting not equipped to handle their contact.