My take on why AFfC and partially ADwD was a flop for many

[Lord Parker]

I'm going to try and keep this short, but this is my take on why I think ADwD and AFfC were at least partially a flop to many book readers. 

From the very beginning, the Starks were set as arguably the main protagonists of the story, the Protagonist House, if you will. We come to know them, love them, and weep for them as they endure their adventures in the first three books. They are the foundation of the story, and are who the majority want to win. GRRM even builds them out to be the protagonists in the center of the story. In aGoT, 6/8 of the POVs are Starks. In aCoK it lowers a little to 5/9 and even less in aDwD with 5/10. Still, the Starks remain for the most part consistent as the central part of Act I of ASOIAF, if you would. When you think of the first three books, you think of the Starks in some way. This is where I think it flops in the next two books or Act II of the series. In these books, the Starks appear few and far between. From my point of view, I think this rapid shift is why some people are so taken back with these books. I mean yeah, we have Brienne looking for one of the Starks for nearly all of aFfC, but... how many times do we actually see Sansa herself, or her sister for that matter? Three, four times each? We don't even get to see the other kids until the next book.

When you think of a Feast for Crows or a Dance with Dragons what do you think of? I mean you don't really think of anyone in particular, because they arguably lack central protagonists. I'm not saying these books are bad or anything, I think they are great additions and buildup for the series, but the sudden change of Starks from spotlight to the background while arguably less interesting things are thrusted into the spotlight is a bit... underwhelming. 

To me, ASOIAF will always be the first real chapter of the series, with Bran and the rest of the Starks living safe and normal lives at Winterfell. The chapter that started it all. Thoughts?

[Makk]

There might be a bit to that in terms of Feast, but I am struggling to see it in Dance. I can't be bothered counting the chapters up but I would guess that Dance sees the majority of it's chapters split between Jon, Daenerys, and Tyrion who were well established characters at the start. It also focuses almost half the story on the North, the home of the Starks, and it likely sees the start of the Stark resurgence. But of course I have never understood why anyone dislikes Dance, it's my favourite of the series. It did finish with too many cliffhangers, which get exacerbated with the delay before Winds, but on the whole I loved it.

[Hos the Hostage]

I really enjoyed reading Dance, except for the Dany chapters. Struggled to finish AFFC, but I liked it on re-read. Possible reasons why these books are less loved

>> Too many new  characters. New mean completely new. We wanted to know what happened to the Starks, Dany and Tyrion, instead we had hundreds of pages or Cersei scheming (although some people love this - unfathomable for me how they do it), Arianne dreaming herself to be scheming (same as Cersei - I don't understand her fans either), Asha struggling in a kingdom about which most readers do not care (yet).

>> The familiar characters Sam and Arya being 'boring' (I did not find them boring at all, but I have read posts where other readers thought them boring)  I think this boring-ness is because (i) They are in new places, the politics of which we have not yet started to care about (ii) They are isolated from all other main characters (iii) Nothing ostensibly significant happens in their chapters. Sam have sex for the first time, whereas Arya joins HoBaW and kills Dareon -  while these may be important milestones in their life, hardly the stuff that most readers care about, because these characters do not appear to move the plot forward.

>>In case of Dance, people who like Dany were disappointed because Meereenese knot. Most of the fans had a hard time reading the names of all the 'hozor' type names of Meereenese people. A minor point, but so many minor negatives make Dany's storyline unreadable for many readers. There are also a set of people who hate Jon/Starks/Wall - naturally they would not enjoy reading DwD because too much happening in the Wall which they do not care about.

It might be the calm before the storm, and all the second layer of foundation laid in AFFC and DwD may turn out to be tremendously important in future books (like how Clash had set up for major events of SoS - although Clash in itself was interesting because of the Wo5K). But as of now, it is only natural for the non-obsessed reader to grow weary of the information overload without having any clue as to where all this is leading.

[Aedam Targaryen]

I always thought that people were disappointed in AFfC and DwD because it seemed like the pace of dramatic events really slowed down. By the second half of ASoS it felt like every chapter had huge world changing events going on. Then it really slows down in AFfC with all of the new character/location introductions. And of course that was followed by that lovable Meereenese knot. 

[Dornish Vinegar]

AFfC is by far my fave in the series so far, but I think what you're saying has some truth to it. Feast has several brand new plotlines to introduce and existing plotlines that "slowed down" so to speak off of Storm and became much more introspective. Proved difficult to get some readers engaged after three books that were different tonally and that, to some extent, placed the Starks in the center. 

[INCBlackbird]

I think what you say is true for some people and not for others. I've seen several explanations for why people tend to like feast and dance less then the other books and those included also complaints about pace and lazy editing. which holds some truth too I think. some people are more focussed on the story and the events that occur and others are more focussed on the characters. I'm one of the people who is more focussed on the characters and I happen to enjoy feast and dance more. Mainly because there are more characters that have their own point of view chapters whom I enjoy in those books. I like the Greyjoys, I like the martells, Theon is my fav, Cersei is in my top 5, so is Jaime. I am also one of the few people who actually enjoys both Tyrion and Daenerys' Dance arcs more then the other books.

It's all very personal, though I do think that an argument can be made for the first three books to be technically better, maybe? But I'm not an expert on that, nor does it matter too much to me so i'll let other people elaborate on that if they want to.

[FrostyDornishman]

11 hours ago, Makk said:

I can't be bothered counting the chapters up but I would guess that Dance sees the majority of it's chapters split between Jon, Daenerys, and Tyrion who were well established characters at the start.

If we look at it by measuring "fraction of POV characters in the book", those three obviously only account for 3 out of 16 total POV characters (not counting the prologue and epilogue) in ADwD.

But, those same three (who I would consider the central protags for the book) account for 35 out of 71 chapters, once again not counting prologue or epilogue.  Jon, Dany, and Tyrion certainly act as flashpoint characters where once-separate storylines get pulled together, and I think their big presence in ADwD keeps the story feeling cohesive.

[The Fattest Leech]

59 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I think what you say is true for some people and not for others. I've seen several explanations for why people tend to like feast and dance less then the other books and those included also complaints about pace and lazy editing. which holds some truth too I think. some people are more focussed on the story and the events that occur and others are more focussed on the characters. I'm one of the people who is more focussed on the characters and I happen to enjoy feast and dance more. Mainly because there are more characters that have their own point of view chapters whom I enjoy in those books. I like the Greyjoys, I like the martells, Theon is my fav, Cersei is in my top 5, so is Jaime. I am also one of the few people who actually enjoys both Tyrion and Daenerys' Dance arcs more then the other books.

It's all very personal, though I do think that an argument can be made for the first three books to be technically better, maybe? But I'm not an expert on that, nor does it matter too much to me so i'll let other people elaborate on that if they want to.

I agree with this as the difference between telling a fast paced story and character development really changes the pacing and the pacing is easily the most complained about issue. And it's true that some people are more in to the battles and politics while some are a little more into the prophecies and fantasy animals. (come on ice dragons!!!)

The first three books started amazing and we got to know the world of Planetos fairly quickly and then a ton of battles and a huge war happened and then the Others came through and a battle at the Wall and then Stannis shows up and then, holy crap!, giants do exist.

However, this was all act 1 and a ton of people died and we needed to be reintroduced the the "new" after war Westeros, after conquered Essos and the evolved characters that came with it. Act 2 is a AFFC and ADWD were we are kinda starting over again on a few arcs, even though they are still tied to the real central plot.

Now that we are through (mostly) act 2, the third and final act will come with The Winds of Winter and then A Dream of Spring. Who knows if we will still need A Time for Wolves? I almost think that a third, final, end book will be needed to wrap up all loose ends the right way.

[Faereth]

I'm actually in the middle of re-reading the books at the moment and have just finished ASoS - I had unbelievably managed to forget quite how many deaths there are in that one! 

About to star AFFC tonight so I think I'll come back to this thread once I've finished it to share my view.

I know first time around I found both AFFC and the first half of ADWD a real struggle to get through. I think it was a combination of too many new characters, new plot lines and the at times excruciating (to me!) pace as to which existing plots are moving forward. So we shall see how I feel after a re-read.... 

[The Mountain That Flies]

I think a lot of people underestimate how much the series changed between Storm and Feast. The former was ended with the intention of the entire series being two trilogies, with a five year in-universe time gap between them. Obviously that changed when the author couldn't make it work, but this naturally moved a lot of the "filler" material from the time gap into exposition in both Feat and Dance. This necessitated a change of pacing, which was a notable shift in style than many readers probably weren't looking for.

In the end the way the series finishes will likely affect how the 4th and 5th book are viewed long term, though unfortunately who knows when that will be.

[Creepy Doll]

Like others have already mentioned these two books for me were all about the pacing. We went from three books that were a whirlwind of chaotic events, followed by the calm before yet another storm and it was a really engaging roller coaster in that sense. But with books 4/5 it felt more like it was just like the moments where there would have been chaos it was just setup, and sometimes followed up with some of the eventfulness we were used to from books 1-3. And I think that this is mostly due to the fact that essentially each book is restricted to a timeline(it's why we see major PoV characters absent in either book.) How could G.R.R.M possibly include the pacing we're used to if he's got himself trapped in a box?

Now, that is not to say that I disliked Feast or Dance, I appreciate them and find myself enjoying them on re-reads, but when comparing each to books 1-3 that magical pacing and balance between chaos and calm is just not there.

[Maxxine]

To me the biggest issue with Feast and part of Dance is the pace. I could deal with the new POVs if something was actually happening in the grand scheme of the story. I actually really like Asha and Arianne. The only POVs I can't stand is Hotah and Brienne. But the fact that you get all the way to the end of Feast & absolutely nothing has happened. It's fine on the first read but you don't really know nothing is going to happen, but on the re-reads you really realize how bad it is. Dance is much better especially the second half.

[The hairy bear]

There are always many different reasons about why some books are generally more liked than others, but the one that the OP proposes is certainly one of them.

The percentage of Stark chapters in each book: 73% in AGOT, 57% in ACOK, 52% in ASOS, 13% in AFFC, and 25% in ADWD.

[JonSnow4President]

I think the real reason is that we almost have plot curves built into the larger story. I think AFFC and ADWD are the period of additional exposition, conclusion on some of the action from the first act, and the slow start of rising action for the second act. Coming off the high of ASOS, it feels like a massive letdown because of the change in pace.  But as of the end of ADWD, we are set up for major events at every locale.  As books on their own, they do suffer from massive pacing problems. But George has masterfully set the chessboard to get a fast start in TWoW.  

[Joy Hill]

I loved AFFC, mostly because I loved the three POVs (Cersei, Brienne, Jaime) that dominated the book.

Dance might be my least favorite overall because I didn't care very much what was happening in Slaver's bay, but I loved Theon/Boltons/Stannis's storylines., and what little we saw of KL.

I read all the books after ADWD came out. My experience would probably have been different if I had to wait for years between ASOS/AFFC/ADWD.

[WSmith84]

Well that might be one reason. But Feast and Dance suffer from plenty of actual issues not related to that. They have an enormous amount of bloat, issues of repetition, uninteresting PoVs (Hotah, Aeron), paper-thin characters (hey Meereen), no resolutions to plot arcs or character arcs and terrible pacing. And I count Dance as my second favourite.

[JonisHenryTudor]

6 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

 

Now that we are through (mostly) act 2, the third and final act will come with The Winds of Winter and then A Dream of Spring. Who knows if we will still need A Time for Wolves? I almost think that a third, final, end book will be needed to wrap up all loose ends the right way.

That was the original title for Dream, but Martin apparently thought it gave too much away. 

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, JonisHenryTudor said:

That was the original title for Dream, but Martin apparently thought it gave too much away. 

I love that title.

I used that particular one somewhat in jest in the event that there needs to be a book eight. By then most of the major conflicts we know of now will be resolved and a final book such as this will deal with the aftermath and reformation of Westeros (Iron Throne, Iron Bank, BWB, Faith of Seven, etc) and any niggling little "prophecies" that are still unresolved. Oh, and weather patterns. Do they ever go back to normal?

[JonisHenryTudor]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I love that title.

 

Yes as do I...

Dream of Spring is pretty swell too. But for most fans it might as well be Dream of a Conclusion

 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I think the real reason is that we almost have plot curves built into the larger story. I think AFFC and ADWD are the period of additional exposition, conclusion on some of the action from the first act, and the slow start of rising action for the second act. Coming off the high of ASOS, it feels like a massive letdown because of the change in pace.  But as of the end of ADWD, we are set up for major events at every locale.  As books on their own, they do suffer from massive pacing problems. But George has masterfully set the chessboard to get a fast start in TWoW.  

Yes, yes, yes! And I cannot wait

On a semi-related side note, GRRM has been saying not to trust any info on Winds that he does not post on his website or blog. I check his sites everyday, about 100,233,455,79879 times a day and I am happy to report that it has stayed the same for a week. Could be nothing? Could be that he is focusing as he said he would do in his Jan 2 post?

http://grrm.livejournal.com/