Baratheon-Targaryen division and hatred

[Valens]

I wonder, did the division start with Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna or was there any other conflicts or disagreements between the two families previously? Because...they are related after all, even if that relation goes waaay back.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well seeing how Tywin, Aerys and Steffon were all best friends and how Steffon actually died for Rhaegar's sake, not that Rhaegar is to blame for the storm,  I don't think that things like Lyonel's small rebellion or what happened with Rhaenyra during the Dance was what started the animosity between the families. I believe that it was Rhaegar's action to elope with Lyanna.

[Nyrhex]

Also Robert, while probably pissed that Rhaegar went to his girl with the crown of roses despite clearly knowing that they are to wed soon, played it off all cool and all while Brandon was almost challenging Rhaegar over what he saw as an insult to his family's honor (and considering the universal reaction from the crowd, justifiably so in context).

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 minutes ago, Nyrhex said:

Also Robert, while probably pissed that Rhaegar went to his girl with the crown of roses despite clearly knowing that they are to wed soon, played it off all cool and all while Brandon was almost challenging Rhaegar over what he saw as an insult to his family's honor (and considering the universal reaction from the crowd, justifiably so in context).

Ya the worldbook says Robert "soured on Rhaegar" after that.

[Nyrhex]

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Ya the worldbook says Robert "soured on Rhaegar" after that.

Soured on Rhaegar specifically, he was still not in "Kill all Dragonspawn mode". Rhaegar was just an ass who insulted his wife, the Starks over making an obviouse move on Lyanna, and Robert for doing so while knowing that Robert and Lyanna were to wed. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I kinda feel that neither Rhaegar and Robert liked each other due to their personalities. The difference is that Robert had to be nice to Rhaegar, while Rhaegar had no obligation to be nice to Robert.

The fact it's mentioned that Connington never liked Robert makes me wonder if Rhaegar's clique went full Mean Girls on Robert (with the exception of Lonmouth) whenever they were plotting something.

[The Wolves]

5 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I kinda feel that neither Rhaegar and Robert liked each other due to their personalities. The difference is that Robert had to be nice to Rhaegar, while Rhaegar had no obligation to be nice to Robert.

The fact it's mentioned that Connington never liked Robert makes me wonder if Rhaegar's clique went full Mean Girls on Robert (with the exception of Lonmouth) whenever they were plotting something.

The bolded made me laugh so very hard for some reason. 

But really Robert is a very unlikable person I wouldn't really blame anybody if they didn't like him. 

[Bael's Bastard]

3 hours ago, Valens said:

I wonder, did the division start with Rhaegar's "abduction" of Lyanna or was there any other conflicts or disagreements between the two families previously? Because...they are related after all, even if that relation goes waaay back.

There were previous conflicts between the Targaryens and Baratheons, but I don't think any of them lingered up to Robert's Rebellion.

The Baratheons supported Aegon II against Rhaenyra in the Dance of Dragons, but those rifts were apparently forgotten some time during the reigns after Aegon III.

The Baratheons rose up against Aegon V when his son and heir Prince Duncan broke his betrothal to Lyonel Baratheon's daughter around 239, but things seemed to be worked out after Dunk defeated Lyonel one on one, Duncan renounced his claim to the throne, and Egg's daughter Rhaelle was betrothed to Lyonel's son and heir Ormund Baratheon. And up to this, Lyonel had always been a friend and supporter of Egg.

Relations between Targaryens and Baratheons seem to have been pretty strong in the two+ decades leading up to Robert's Rebellion. I am not sure that Robert was as close to Aerys or Rhaegar as Steffon had been with Aerys, but even as late as the Knight of the Laughing Tree incident Robert seemed to have no real demonstrable hostility toward the Targaryens.

My impression is that Robert began to sour on the Targs at the end of the Harrenhal tourney, when Rhaegar named Lyanna Queen of Love and Beauty, and that the abduction of Lyanna by Rhaegar, and the killing of Rickard and Brandon and calling for Robert's and Ned's heads by Aerys were responsible for the explosion of the most recent conflict.

I really think the Targs and Baratheons had been on pretty good terms prior to that, and I don't think there was any lingering hostility between the two from previous conflicts.

[Kal-L]

2 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

I kinda feel that neither Rhaegar and Robert liked each other due to their personalities. The difference is that Robert had to be nice to Rhaegar, while Rhaegar had no obligation to be nice to Robert.

The fact it's mentioned that Connington never liked Robert makes me wonder if Rhaegar's clique went full Mean Girls on Robert (with the exception of Lonmouth) whenever they were plotting something.

I always felt there was more a dislike between Rhaegar and Brandon, I mean with the whole crowning Lyanna thing, maybe the Ashara affair and obviously the 'come out and die'. On the other hand Rhaegar called Robert 'cousin' before going war against him, that's seems a bit odd for someone you supposedly don't like. Jon Con despised Robert as a man but I doubt Rhaegar would be as judgmental as his friend, dude was still good friends with Lonmouth after all and at the time the whole Lyanna affair wasn't yet on the table.

Anyway I feel that they may have been a tense rivalry between Robert/Brandon clique -overall young men of the vale such as Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce, Ned who grew with them- and Rhaegar's clique. What is your opinion on that matter ?

[Nyrhex]

1 hour ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

The fact it's mentioned that Connington never liked Robert makes me wonder if Rhaegar's clique went full Mean Girls on Robert (with the exception of Lonmouth) whenever they were plotting something.

Connington not liking Robert seems to be his own thing, Lonmouth had no issue going into a drinking contest with Robert at Harrenhal. Though the Mean Girls image works for me too 

[Ser Leftwich]

Rhaegar also unhorsed Brandon earlier at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Robert might have been more angry if he was also unhorsed by Rhaegar.

[Bael's Bastard]

7 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Rhaegar also unhorsed Brandon earlier at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Robert might have been more angry if he was also unhorsed by Rhaegar.

Good point, this is definitely worth noting.

[Boarsbane]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The bolded made me laugh so very hard for some reason. 

But really Robert is a very unlikable person I wouldn't really blame anybody if they didn't like him. 

You don't like Robert but he had the charisma and personality that would draw many of his peers to him and it's stressed how easy Robert makes friends, recall the rebellious lords switching sides after he beat them and later dying for him.

[Nyrhex]

30 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Rhaegar also unhorsed Brandon earlier at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Robert might have been more angry if he was also unhorsed by Rhaegar.

That's more Brandon's hot blood rather than an early loss to Rhaegar. Ned is mentioned as no less angry over it, only calmer in his reaction.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I always felt there was more a dislike between Rhaegar and Brandon, I mean with the whole crowning Lyanna thing, maybe the Ashara affair and obviously the 'come out and die'. On the other hand Rhaegar called Robert 'cousin' before going war against him, that's seems a bit odd for someone you supposedly don't like. Jon Con despised Robert as a man but I doubt Rhaegar would be as judgmental as his friend, dude was still good friends with Lonmouth after all and at the time the whole Lyanna affair wasn't yet on the table.

Anyway I feel that they may have been a tense rivalry between Robert/Brandon clique -overall young men of the vale such as Elbert Arryn, Kyle Royce, Ned who grew with them- and Rhaegar's clique. What is your opinion on that matter ?

Well, I guess that Rhaegar and Brandon didn't go along, but they barely meet each other. Robert was somehow closer to court than Brandon, and while they didn't grow up together, they saw each other often. I can see how their personalities could have been very annoying to the other one. Stannis, otoh, could have been someone I see more likely to fit in among Rhaegar's friends.

Now, the thing with Robert is not that he's just "annoying". His whole behaviour is a bit cliché of what people believe a "medieval" man is, but that kind of conduct wasn't the norm. He never seemed to care that much for his people as a Lord and I guess that's one of the reasons the ultra honourable Jon "I love my lands" Connington didn't like him as his own Lord. It could be the same for the KG or Mooton, who was loved by his brother's people. I see no reason why Rhaegar wouldn't believe the same, that cousin Robert was an irresponsible person.

Now, Robert's and Brandon's cliques.. I guess is never wise to have two roosters on the same pen

[JonCon's Red Beard]

2 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The bolded made me laugh so very hard for some reason. 

 

In next books, it will be revealed that what Rhaegar's obsessed about was just a piece of parchment saying "Robert  BAratheon is a fugly skank. Don't trust him!".

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1 hour ago, Nyrhex said:

Connington not liking Robert seems to be his own thing, Lonmouth had no issue going into a drinking contest with Robert at Harrenhal. Though the Mean Girls image works for me too 

Well, if Jon can be an isolated case, why not Lonmouth?

I mean, there is no doubt Robert is charismatic, but he's like the Stiffler of the time. There is no doubt that the American Pie guys love Stifler (he's a good person, imo), but there are moments in which they are embarrassed of him and don't want him around, specially when they are up to do serious stuff.

We're talking about people who were committed to their duties as Lords, Knights or simply bound to such duties for whatever reasons, and Robert is not like that. I can imagine they would see Robert as the Stifler they have to put up with because he's their Lord (that's Jon's case). Some others would simply believe him to not being trustworthy (many who sided with the Targaryens probably saw him as such when he rebelled) because of his ways.

[Lord_Ravenstone]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The bolded made me laugh so very hard for some reason. 

But really Robert is a very unlikable person I wouldn't really blame anybody if they didn't like him. 

Only to us. Robert is extremely likeable to the people of Westeros hence being able to turn enemies into allies

[Valens]

I understand why Jon Con thought Robert was unlordly, he was. He was too fond of drinking and women, always. And was a bit too brash and wild. That wasn't how a lord should be, according to Westerosi standards. I'm not sure wether Jon DESPISED Robert or simply deemed him unworthy of being his liege lord.

[Universal Sword Donor]

5 hours ago, The Wolves said:

The bolded made me laugh so very hard for some reason. 

But really Robert is a very unlikable person I wouldn't really blame anybody if they didn't like him. 

We see a lot more of him than most people do and nearly all of that well after the kingship started heavily weighing upon him. He certainly has his drawbacks and personality flaws, but younger Robert and I would have gotten along very well.