Discussing Sansa XXIII: Lady Stork and her flock

[permaximum]

I don't want to sadden Sansa fans but it seems the actress talked about the scenes in this episode and she said Sansa doesn't have the Stark way about her anymore and she doesn't even trust her own family. And more importantly she says Sansa wants all the power and information that comes with Littlefinger for herself alone after realizing she can do whatever she wants with LF now because he owes her big time.

I guess Sansa will want to go to Kings Landing with Littlefinger and his army after naming Jon "Stark" Warden of the North. However I feel LF will be caught by Bolton men on his return to Moat Cailin (at the forest area with lots of snow where we saw LF at the trailer) and will die at the hands of Ramsay in the end of this season. Then Sansa will persuade or marry Robin Arryn, or worse kill him if she can't manipulate him and go with Royce as the Lord of the Vale and persuade him to go to King's Landing with the Vale's army.

As a Petyr Baelish fan this saddens me also but it looks like he will die at the hands of Ramsay or Sansa this season soon after the war.

 

[Raksha 2014]

1 hour ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I don't think Sansa is being malicious, or intending any harm on Jon, but I do think there is a degree of manipulation going on. I am not sure how I feel about that. I like seeing Sansa gaining agency and becoming a cunning player, but not at the expense of taking advantage of Jon (aka naive Ned 2.0) and making him the pawn. 

Sansa gifting Jon with a cloak that looks exactly like Ned's is not just a sweet act that proves her love and acceptance for him. No, it is a politically cunning move. She wants Jon to look like Ned, to encourage the Northerners to follow him into battle. It is to her benefit as much as it is to make Jon happy. 

It is as Littlefinger says: 

"And when you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden’s cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back… why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright." - AFFC

Except, it is Sansa doing this with Jon, rather than Littlefinger with Sansa. She is making him look like a Stark because he is the one who needs to fight her the battles. 

She is playing the game and arguably, Jon is being played. 

 

 

 

I think it was a smart move for Sansa to make and give the cloak to Jon.  Would it be better for him to wear some ragged Night's Watch castoff cloak when he tries to enlist support from former Stark vassals, as Ned Stark's son, to retake Winterfell?  He should be reminding them of his Stark blood as much as he can.  A cloak can help with the Stark identification; and this is something Jon would not necessarily realize, but Sansa would.  The cloak will help Jon in the Stark mission to rescue their brother Rickon, retake their home, and have a strong base for the family - all of which benefits Jon as much as Sansa.  Sansa knows that she cannot be Queen in the North while Bran and Rickon live; yet she's urging Jon to help save Rickon.  

[Helena Stark]

Sorry if it has already been said, but I don't think Sansa distrusts Jon. I don't even think she doesn't love him. I'm sure she loves him and very much, but now she is a player in the game and she knows that right now Winterfell is rightfully hers, not Jon's, and if takes a nap while Jon does all the hard work he will be the one to have an army, power, and the northener's trust: not her.

This is her taking an active role to retake Winterfell. This is her not taking any chances, because she has been betrayed enough. She won't let Jon -or Davos, or Melisandre, or anyone- forget that she is the Stark, that she is the rightful heir to Winterfell, and that she is the one that should have the support from the North. She won't rely on somebody else to get stuff done again because we've seen how that has turned out for her. She won't stand by Jon's side so he can get an army of Northeners just because she is there with him, but rather she'll get the army and unite forces with Jon.

She is making a name for herself, and that is what I've been waiting for since the first season/book.

Edited: I know that, as far as Sansa knows, Rickon is the rightful heir, but hey! He's just a child. The one to rule Winterfell will be her if they retake it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Quote

I don't want to sadden Sansa fans but it seems the actress talked about the scenes in this episode and she said Sansa doesn't have the Stark way about her anymore and she doesn't even trust her own family. And more importantly she says Sansa wants all the power and information that comes with Littlefinger for herself alone after realizing she can do whatever she wants with LF now because he owes her big time.

1

Even if this is a thing, that doesnt mean Sansa is going to betray or backstab Jon. I think shes just being really wary on how to make the next steps. Sansa had to learn the hard way that the real world is full of salt and nightsoil. That would harden any Stark, especially when she has seen and learned of Stark bannermen sticking knives in backs. 

[sj4iy]

18 minutes ago, permaximum said:

I don't want to sadden Sansa fans but it seems the actress talked about the scenes in this episode and she said Sansa doesn't have the Stark way about her anymore and she doesn't even trust her own family. And more importantly she says Sansa wants all the power and information that comes with Littlefinger for herself alone after realizing she can do whatever she wants with LF now because he owes her big time.

I think you are taking what she said out of context a bit.  She's holding her cards close because she's tired of being a pawn in someone else's game.  She's putting Jon in a position of power...but she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't want to give it ALL away and leave herself vulnerable again.  She's not doing it out of maliciousness...she's doing it in self-protection.

18 minutes ago, permaximum said:

I guess Sansa will want to go to Kings Landing with Littlefinger and his army after naming Jon "Stark" Warden of the North. However I feel LF will be caught by Bolton men on his return to Moat Cailin (at the forest area with lots of snow where we saw LF at the trailer) and will die at the hands of Ramsay in the end of this season. Then Sansa will persuade or marry Robin Arryn, or worse kill him if she can't manipulate him and go with Royce as the Lord of the Vale and persuade him to go to King's Landing with the Vale's army.

As a Petyr Baelish fan this saddens me also but it looks like he will die at the hands of Ramsay or Sansa this season soon after the war.

 

I don't think they will ever get the chance to go South.  The White Walkers are nearly on their doorstep and Jon is fully aware of it.  He's not fighting Ramsay for power...he's fighting Ramsay for survival.  Will Sansa have other ambitions?  Maybe, but I would assume that even she would understand what kind of threat the White Walkers are to all mankind.  My guess is that KL will be destroyed by the end of the season and Dany will swoop in early next season, only to find nothing else and an army of ice zombies headed their way.

I don't see Littlefinger dying this season.

[permaximum]

 

1 hour ago, Florina Laufeyson said:

Even if this is a thing, that doesnt mean Sansa is going to betray or backstab Jon. I think shes just being really wary on how to make the next steps. Sansa had to learn the hard way that the real world is full of salt and nightsoil. That would harden any Stark, especially when she has seen and learned of Stark bannermen sticking knives in backs. 

That interview is true. Below I'll quote it. I never said she would betray or backstab Jon. She loves him and even the thought of it is absurd.

 

1 hour ago, sj4iy said:

I think you are taking what she said out of context a bit.  She's holding her cards close because she's tired of being a pawn in someone else's game.  She's putting Jon in a position of power...but she's smart enough to realize that she doesn't want to give it ALL away and leave herself vulnerable again.  She's not doing it out of maliciousness...she's doing it in self-protection.

I don't think they will ever get the chance to go South.  The White Walkers are nearly on their doorstep and Jon is fully aware of it.  He's not fighting Ramsay for power...he's fighting Ramsay for survival.  Will Sansa have other ambitions?  Maybe, but I would assume that even she would understand what kind of threat the White Walkers are to all mankind.  My guess is that KL will be destroyed by the end of the season and Dany will swoop in early next season, only to find nothing else and an army of ice zombies headed their way.

I don't see Littlefinger dying this season.

 

Sophie Turner's own words

"She doesn’t tell Jon because -- it’s difficult because she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore. She’s been broken down; she no longer feels like she can be completely honest with anyone, even her own family. Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court. "

[lakin1013]

1 hour ago, Newstar said:

Something about this episode and the Inside the Episode comments by D&D (in general, but also in particular the comment that Sansa wouldn't have lied to Jon if she were a "clean, pure Stark") left me with a bad feeling about Sansa's prospects. If she aligns against the hero Jon....

 

While I was watching the episode, I had the strangest feeling when Sansa lied to Jon.  It was like hearing a click when you are playing a pinball game and suddenly a timer appears and begins counting.  Or like there was a disturbance in the force when you watch a good character do something gray, for no good reason.  And they are asked about it, and they have no good answer.  And you are left with a bad taste. 

There was no reason for her to lie to him.  From the welcome home speeches to each other. she had to convince Jon to help her.  He wanted no part of it until she cajoled and argued.  At no time did Jon show any grand ambitions, in fact, all Jon kept repeating was that he was no longer the LC.  Sansa, even if harboring grand plans, would have no hint and no suspicion that Jon would be in her way. She seemed less interested in his resurrection and more interested in regaining the family home.   {I believe the dialogue leads us to believe Jon told her about his death when he shared about what happened at CB and said ...see how that turned out.]

If I had a family member who returned from the dead, I would have a few questions.  Sansa comes across as far more avid about getting revenge and Winterfell. With Martin, revenge never seems to go the way one would hope. 

 

[sj4iy]

18 minutes ago, permaximum said:

Sophie Turner's own words

"She doesn’t tell Jon because -- it’s difficult because she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore. She’s been broken down; she no longer feels like she can be completely honest with anyone, even her own family. Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court. "

I read the interview myself.  I know what she said.  But like I said, I think you took her words out of context somewhat...making it sound like she doesn't trust her family at all.  That's not what she said...she said that she doesn't feel like she can be completely honest with anyone anymore, and that's a big difference from 'can't trust them at all'.  It's something that a lot of abuse survivors have trouble with, actually.  She trusts Jon...but that doesn't mean she's willing to leave her life in his (or anyone's) hands anymore.  She's been used, abused, discarded, and let down by everyone she's trusted up to this point.  She's simply protecting herself from that ever happening again and taking some agency in her own future for once.  

And really, Jon's arc this season sort of parallels Sansa's journey...he's just been murdered by people he trusted with his life.  He's been let down by an institution that he gave his life and honor for but gave him nothing in return but heartbreak and misery.  He realizes that there's nothing waiting for him after death.  He feels powerless.  He's somewhat lost when Sansa finds him...and while she is taking power into her own hands, she is giving him back his.  Jon isn't eager to take up another lost cause, but Sansa has made him realize that he has something to fight for now.

People might think Sansa is manipulating Jon to her will, but he needed that push.  Right now, their paths are aligned...will that continue after they retake Winterfell and the North?  Will her lie come back to haunt them?  There's no way to know right now.  But they both need each other right now, even if she isn't completely honest with him and even if he isn't quite ready for what's coming.

[Mladen]

From Ms Turner's quote above, we can see that the entire talk of treason is a bit exaggerated. I think in this case, neither of them have any grand plans, beside of course saving home (for Sansa) and saving world (for Jon). But we have also to understand that these are TWO independent individuals and with that in mind, it is natural that they will have secrets of their own and naturally their own agenda.

And this is nothing new. Catelyn adored Robb and he loved his mother, but at the same time, they acted independently. Yes, it costed them a lot and Sansa isn't where Catelyn was. At least, yet. So, before we start creating a great schism here, let we make a step back and realize that this lie, as wrong as it may look, is also Sansa's grasp towards independence. And there is a huge difference between treason and independence. 

 

[Jojosh]

sansa is going to ruin this great northern reclamation campaign with her trust issues

I want her to trust jon completely but I guess brienne is now her confidant 

[Wilnova]

1 hour ago, permaximum said:

 

That interview is true. Below I'll quote it. I never said she would betray or backstab Jon. She loves him and even the thought of it is absurd.

 

 

Sophie Turner's own words

"She doesn’t tell Jon because -- it’s difficult because she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore. She’s been broken down; she no longer feels like she can be completely honest with anyone, even her own family. Also she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger. Because [with] Littlefinger she can kind of do whatever she wants with him now. He owes her big time and she wants the ball in her court. "

If anything, this quote is more incriminating and goes with what I was saying . Look at the words she uses:

" she doesn’t have that Stark way about her anymore "

" she doesn’t want to tell Jon, I think, because she wants all the information and all the power in her court when it comes to Littlefinger "

She does not have the Stark way of being honest with one's own family. She wants all the information and POWER herself when it comes to LF. She does not want to share it with people like Jon and Davos who may or may not use LF for their cause : Winning the North. She is keeping that info in her backpocket to use it later. It's a trump card for her. We should wait and see if she will use it against or for Jon.

Whether she likes it or not, she is holding back valuable info from Jon and Davos because she wants all the power over information and LF. That is beneficial only for herself. Not for Jon. She is acting selfishly.

As for trust issues. Jon has the same trust issues as Sansa. It's not like he is keeping her out of their planning. And the fact that Sansa does not trust Jon is idiotic considering that she thinks the Karstarks are still loyal. No. Sophie got it right. Sansa is not being honest with Jon for selfish reasons to keep valuable info to herself.

Besides, I do think, as much as they have diverted her from her book arc and dumped her in the North, they have to reconnect her to her book story. I think book Sansa will not end up aligning with the rest of the Starks under LF's tutelage. We will continue to see LF's effect on her.

[throney]

I also read the interview but I didn't get the that she wants to "join forces" with Littlefinger or any grand schemes for pulling Jon's strings. That comment seemed all about power over Littlefinger. Not Jon. Sure I think she's being selfish in way but it's not betrayal.

But she also talks about Sansa wanting to forge her own path and wanting people to listen to her. So there is more to the interview then just the lie. As always context helps.

[Wilnova]

10 minutes ago, throney said:

I also read the interview but I didn't get the that she wants to "join forces" with Littlefinger or any grand schemes for pulling Jon's strings. That comment seemed all about power over Littlefinger. Not Jon. Sure I think she's being selfish in way but it's not betrayal.

But she also talks about Sansa wanting to gorge her own path and wanting people to listen to her. So there is more to the interview then just the lie. As always context helps.

The thing is, by keeping back information about LF and the Vale, she is in fact betraying Jon in a way. She basically pushed him into this fight and then holds back a valuable piece of info for her own selfish reasons. It's all well and good to forge one's own path, but don't fool one's own family while doing it. Especially when she explicity states that Jon is Jon and would do her no harm. How would she like it if Jon kept her in the dark about their plans in order to forge his own path?

Like I said, LF and Vale is a trump card for her. I bet that when the Vale arrives as a last minute rescue force during the fight for Winterfell, Sansa will take the credit because she knew about it beforehand or something. I don't see how holding back info about LF gives her power over LF. But it definitely gives her power over Jon and Co. because she has info that they may need in the future.

Considering that the 'inside the episode' also focused a bit on Sansa's lie and her lack of 'Starkness' so to speak, I think it may be significant towards the end.

[Good Guy Garlan]

She might trust Jon but not the people he trusts. And just why would she trust Stannis' Hand, or his Red Witch, or the wildlings? Keeping her cards close to the chest is probably the smarter thing a Stark has done since...ever. For the sake of everyone involved, the less people know about something, the safer the operation. 

I feel like this is one of those things that, if Sansa had told Jon everything people would've complained about her being too trusting after everything she's been through. 

[Wilnova]

8 minutes ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

She might trust Jon but not the people he trusts. And just why would she trust Stannis' Hand, or his Red Witch, or the wildlings? Keeping her cards close to the chest is probably the smarter thing a Stark has done since...ever. For the sake of everyone involved, the less people know about something, the safer the operation. 

I feel like this is one of those things that, if Sansa had told Jon everything people would've complained about her being too trusting after everything she's been through. 

Weak reasoning. So she can't pull Jon aside and let him know? She can't give that explanation to Brienne when Brienne asked her why she did not trust Jon with that info? Besides the behind the scenes interviews suggest that is not the reason.

The point is that there is no reason for Sansa to not trust Jon. None at all. He is the last person ever to backstab someone. He is not ambitious. Sansa is the one who is pushing for the whole thing. I hardly think anyone would complain if Sansa entrusted Jon with the information. Why would they? Sansa confiding in Jon is her being too trusting? By that reasoning, Jon should also not trust her (currently he has very good reasons not to!). Nor should Davos and Mel. They should all keep info to themselves because no one should trust anyone.

[sj4iy]

2 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

Weak reasoning. So she can't pull Jon aside and let him know? She can't give that explanation to Brienne when Brienne asked her why she did not trust Jon with that info? Besides the behind the scenes interviews suggest that is not the reason.

The point is that there is no reason for Sansa to not trust Jon. None at all. He is the last person ever to backstab someone. He is not ambitious. Sansa is the one who is pushing for the whole thing. I hardly think anyone would complain if Sansa entrusted Jon with the information. Why would they? Sansa confiding in Jon is her being too trusting? By that reasoning, Jon should also not trust anyone. Nor should Davos and Mel. They should all keep info to themselves because no one should trust anyone.

We, the audience, know that Jon is not like that.  But there's no reason that Sansa would know that.  They were never close growing up and they've been years apart.  And she's been let down, abused and used by those she trusted completely.  It's completely understandable why she is holding back on him at this point in time.

Now, it absolutely could come back to bite them later on...but right now, from her point of view, it's understandable.

[throney]

18 minutes ago, Wilnova said:

The thing is, by keeping back information about LF and the Vale, she is in fact betraying Jon in a way. She basically pushed him into this fight and then holds back a valuable piece of info for her own selfish reasons. It's all well and good to forge one's own path, but don't fool one's own family while doing it. Especially when she explicit states that Jon is Jon and would do her no harm. How would she like it if Jon kept her in the dark about their plans in order to forge his own path?

Like I said, LF and Vale is a trump card for her. I bet that when the Vale arrives as a last minute rescue force during the fight for Winterfell, Sansa will take the credit because she knew about it beforehand or something. I don't see how holding back info about LF gives her power over LF. But it definitely giver her power over Jon and Co. because she has info that they may need in the future.

It will either go that way or it won't. I am not saying that you a wrong, I just think that you are reading far too much in Sophie's comment. There are still 4 more episodes for this to come out. Sansa still has to have the "It's all I think about..." speech from the trailers, so perhaps this is where they have a true heart to heart and not that "I was an ass to you" bullshit.

[Good Guy Garlan]

7 minutes ago, sj4iy said:

We, the audience, know that Jon is not like that.  But there's no reason that Sansa would know that.  They were never close growing up and they've been years apart.  And she's been let down, abused and used by those she trusted completely.  It's completely understandable why she is holding back on him at this point in time.

Now, it absolutely could come back to bite them later on...but right now, from her point of view, it's understandable.

This. 

I do agree that the whole thing is odd, but nothing wrong with a little fanwank. 

[Smoke317]

Sansa has always been the Stark least loyal to her family.  Why are we surprised that she'd lie to Jon for her own selfish gains. She did the same thing with both Arya (Joffrey and wolves) and Ned (telling Cersei Ned was gonna sneak his kids back to Winterfell).  How did those situations play out?  Sansa's mentor and father figure is Littlefinger now. A man loyal to no one but himself. Instead of embracing her family bond and learning loyalty from her kin (Jon) she's feeding into her natural selfish nature by learning from the most selfish snake in Winterfell. Isn't it odd that the younger actress playing Sansa in the play, is jealous of another and has hired a faceless man to kill the older more experienced actress? Arya clearly disapproves. Could this foreshadow Sansa eventually trying to pull Sansa into her and LF's selfish schemes against Jon and Arya will disapprove.  Why?  Because she's always placed family first unlike her older sister.  She's a true wolf.  The pack comes before the individual.  And to her Jon is family. Her first instinct is to name him her brother.  Not half brother.  Not bastard.  Sansa is becoming a selfish manipulator like her mentor and father figure LF and that won't play too well with the rest of the Stark Wolfpack. Sansa's only redemption will be that she's playing the game and manipulating LF for the benefit of her entire family, not just herself or she'll finally see the folly in her ways and sacrifice herself to save her family. 

[WinterCloak]

I think Sansa lied about where the news of the Blackfish came from because she knew the others would be mistrustful of the messenger. Perhaps she didn't want to waste time trying to convince everyone?