Outcome of the battle of the bastards[ potential spoilers]

[The Bastard Dayne]

12 hours ago, tugela said:

Barristan is pretty sure, they only reason he dismisses the idea is because Ashara and her child are supposed to be dead. He is pretty clear about that too. She disappeared, and if she disappeared with a Targaryen bastard, the logical place for her to go would be the last holdout of Targaryen loyalists. Guess where that is and who is there.

Except that she didn't go there. She was at Starfall. Where Ned returned Dawn after Ser Arthur's death.

Rhaella was pregnant, but she may have been the one that had a stillborn daughter, not Ashara. The babies were just switched.

When and where? As I said; Ashara was in Dorne. Rhaella was on Dragonstone. And given that Ned traveled to Starfall right after Lyanna died in the ToJ, we have a pretty clear timeline.

There has a to be a reason why Ashara keeps getting mentioned by disparate characters. She clearly has a role to play in the story.

Faegon has a part to play in the story too. But, since the show completely omitted him, I'll let you guess how important his part is likely to be.

The Daynes are not Targaryens. Their family is ancient and far older than the Valyrian freehold. They have a mysterious origin story involving falling stars, unique titles and special blood.

Yes, yes. Bad wording on my part.

I didn't say the Daynes were Targs; I said they have Targ traits. I should have said Valyrian traits.

Many still have them. Hell, even many commoners in the east. That was my point; Ashara having purple eyes doesn't mean jack-shit.

Replies in Bold.

[~DarkHorse~]

7 hours ago, Frejac said:

 

It is and it isn't.

From the pure plot-point perspective of figuring out how the Starks can successfully retake Winterfell, it does make sense that the situation will play out this way.

How does Jon get Ramsay on an open field where he has at least a chance to fight him rather than having to try to siege Winterfell?  By attacking him with a significantly smaller army.

How does Ramsay lose against this significantly smaller army?  He gets blindsided by the Vale.

This makes sense.

What does not make sense is the way this is actually implemented on the show.

It would be one thing if Jon had been aware of the Vale from the beginning and, together with his advisors and consultation from the Vale, had planned this strategy to lure out and beat Ramsay.  It is another to see what's happening on the show where the Stark army has to attack and basically pray for miracle.

This is why the whole Sansa keeping Littlefinger and the Vale a secret thing has annoyed me so much this season.  Had she shared the information, we could have seen a lot of interesting character driven interactions between the main players in the North trying to strategically figure out how to retake Winterfell while simultaneously trying to figure out how to safeguard themselves against Littlefinger's machinations.

Instead, we have the Starks being put into a situation with a level of artificially inflated desperation, making decisions that undercut their growth as characters.

In either case, the battle would likely have played out the same, but in one of them, I would have been much more excited and intrigued by the action happening around it.

As things stand now, even though I'm still really looking forward to watching the episode, I can't help but also feel disappointed.

I am disappointed in the shows execution of the battle, as well. (Based on what we know so far, I might feel differently when I see it play out on screen). 

People keep criticizing Jon, but I think Sansa comes across as worse, with her secrecy over the Vale army. At least we can understand Jon's grim perspective, based on what he knows. He is in a tight corner, with the odds and time against him. There is little more he can do at this point. His biggest problem is that he is vastly outnumbered, and cannot rely on the North for more troops. They sent out letters and got few replies. As Jon said, "If they have not answered now, they are not coming," he is right. With the possibility of bad weather screwing them over, or Ramsay running out of patience, he cannot waste time trying to find more troops. The obvious solution is the Vale army, yet he knows nothing about it, all for the sake of drama. This is in Sansa's hands, not Jon's. 

I imagine, they want to give Sansa something to do, so they will portray the Vale army as her saving the Stark forces. Instead, it actually reflects poorly on her. Withholding that information to begin with was a bad move. Or maybe, they will have Jon shrug off the Vale army and go at it alone regardless, making him look like an idiot. Then, it will be Sansa who saves Jon. (The show have not been very good at showing empowered Sansa, so making Jon look bad to prop up Sansa, seems right up their lane. As long as Jon gets to swing a sword around, his worth is there.)

The show could still make this work, but I am not counting on it. Perhaps, Sansa does actually tell Jon about the Vale army and they are part of Jon's plans. Jon will use his forces to lure Ramsay onto the Battlefield, distracting him long enough for the Vale forces to arrive. Because if Ramsay knew about the Vale army, he would siege, rather than fight a battle he can lose. Keeping the Vale army secret from Ramsay, would actually make sense as a strategic plan in this scenario. Jon cannot afford a siege. 

But drama can still be added by having Jon's army lose their heads and charge into battle earlier than expected, due to Ramsay provoking them (RIP Rickon). Things start getting desperate, the Stark forces are almost wiped out and it looks like the Vale won't come, but they do. In this case, the Vale 'rescue' would be a relief for Jon because they did come (albeit late), not a shock. 

[watcher of the night]

8 hours ago, Arya Targaryen said:

Right now the Boltons are sitting within the walls of Winterfell. How exactly would you use a hit-and-run force on that one? 

 

If the Boltons and the Karstarks and the Umbers are all sitting in Wintefell then Jon has the North, he can go where ever he wants, he can do whatever he wants. He can take Karhold or the Last Heart or link up with Manderly or march to Deapwood Motte en force, etc, anything.

You cannot hold a country 12 times the size of England sitting in a castle, you have to come out.

[Jonnie_The_Irish_Wildling]

I gave my live reaction to the trailer on my youtube, if curious of a Wildling's perspective on this in a sincere first time watch of the trailer then have a look, comments and suggestions are most welcome, I have some crazy theories on it, here is the link below, enjoy:)

Also here is a link if you want to sit back and have a laugh, bloopers of season 6 so far..

[Red Tiger]

18 minutes ago, watcher of the night said:

If the Boltons and the Karstarks and the Umbers are all sitting in Wintefell then Jon has the North, he can go where ever he wants, he can do whatever he wants. He can take Karhold or the Last Heart or link up with Manderly or march to Deapwood Motte en force, etc, anything.

You cannot hold a country 12 times the size of England sitting in a castle, you have to come out.

There's this thing called a garrison.

[Zorral]

Nothing comes to mind as happening on this series that watchers have really wanted to happen.

Therefore LF and the Vale will not come to pull out of the massacre of Jon and Sansa's forces at Winterfell. And if they do arrive, in some manner LF will betray them and ally with the Bolton forces. Umber and / or someone else will change sides and attack their forces from behind. At the very best what will happen is that Sansa will have to go back to RB in exchange for Rickon -- and then he will kill Rickon anyway. Yes, things can be even worse than this --  Sansa learns she's pregnant. (Though about that -- how much time has actually passed since her escape and the battle?)

This is what one learns to expect in this series.

If things turn out other than this, that will be good.  But the chances they will have any kind of success at all are about .05%.

 

[RhaenysBee]

5 hours ago, ~DarkHorse~ said:

I am disappointed in the shows execution of the battle, as well. (Based on what we know so far, I might feel differently when I see it play out on screen). 

People keep criticizing Jon, but I think Sansa comes across as worse, with her secrecy over the Vale army. At least we can understand Jon's grim perspective, based on what he knows. He is in a tight corner, with the odds and time against him. There is little more he can do at this point. His biggest problem is that he is vastly outnumbered, and cannot rely on the North for more troops. They sent out letters and got few replies. As Jon said, "If they have not answered now, they are not coming," he is right. With the possibility of bad weather screwing them over, or Ramsay running out of patience, he cannot waste time trying to find more troops. The obvious solution is the Vale army, yet he knows nothing about it, all for the sake of drama. This is in Sansa's hands, not Jon's. 

I imagine, they want to give Sansa something to do, so they will portray the Vale army as her saving the Stark forces. Instead, it actually reflects poorly on her. Withholding that information to begin with was a bad move. Or maybe, they will have Jon shrug off the Vale army and go at it alone regardless, making him look like an idiot. Then, it will be Sansa who saves Jon. (The show have not been very good at showing empowered Sansa, so making Jon look bad to prop up Sansa, seems right up their lane. As long as Jon gets to swing a sword around, his worth is there.)

The show could still make this work, but I am not counting on it. Perhaps, Sansa does actually tell Jon about the Vale army and they are part of Jon's plans. Jon will use his forces to lure Ramsay onto the Battlefield, distracting him long enough for the Vale forces to arrive. Because if Ramsay knew about the Vale army, he would siege, rather than fight a battle he can lose. Keeping the Vale army secret from Ramsay, would actually make sense as a strategic plan in this scenario. Jon cannot afford a siege. 

But drama can still be added by having Jon's army lose their heads and charge into battle earlier than expected, due to Ramsay provoking them (RIP Rickon). Things start getting desperate, the Stark forces are almost wiped out and it looks like the Vale won't come, but they do. In this case, the Vale 'rescue' would be a relief for Jon because they did come (albeit late), not a shock. 

I really don't think it's any fair to form an opinion about a battle scene we haven't yet seen. It may be good. It may be bad. But I think it's absolutely impossible to tell which it will be based on a 20 second mashup. 

I can see why people criticize Jon. With the resurrection, Jon is even more boring than he was before and Kit's portrayal of emo Jon is even duller than his portrayal of pre death Jon. But when it comes to the characters, I do agree that Jon has an excuse to be emo, while Sansa is a bitch for no reason. I hate the idea that she is not honest with Jon and she's practicing her LF skills on him. Jon is her only family at the moment and yet she is playing him because... Why exactly? To show that she is a "boss ass bitch"? Playing someone who has 100% true intentions and he is doing all he is doing because SHE asked him to doesn't make her empowered. It makes her Cersei and Littlefinger. What does she gain by keeping information from Jon? If the Vale army comes, it won't be Sansa who saved Jon. It will be the Vale army who saved both of them. Sansa didn't save Jon, she wrote a letter, placed the choice of saving or not saving them in LF's hands and kept her fingers crossed. I actually half hope that LF fucks them over, Jon saves Jon and Sansa learns that playing the game takes a bit more than hoping for an untrustworthy creepy dude to like you enough to send an army and lying to your honest brother for no reason. I guess I don't need to say that I absolutely hate Sansa this season. 

And yeah, I know that the Starks will probably prevail with the help of the Knights of the Vale and Sansa will Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell, Empoweredness of the the North...  oh well... 

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

With the resurrection, Jon is even more boring than he was before and Kit's portrayal of emo Jon is even duller than his portrayal of pre death Jon. But when it comes to the characters, I do agree that Jon has an excuse to be emo, while Sansa is a bitch for no reason.

Could you please explain that without using slang like emo?  

Assume for a moment that your readership either doesn't know what you mean by your emo slang, or gets entirely the wrong idea.  What are you actually saying?

[Future Null Infinity]

Events I can see happen with 100% chance :

• If no one shows up to help, the starks will take a miserable defeat, they are so outnumbered, but they will flee if that will happen
• LittleFinger will come, for whatever reason, he wil show up with the knights of the Vale, he made two promises, one to Cersei and one to Sansa
• The destruction of the alliance Boltons-Umbers-Karstarks and the death of Ramsay

Event I'm waiting to see in the show :

• the timing of the arrival of Baelish, if he came in the middle of the battle he will help Sansa and give her WF, if he came after the defeat of the starks, he will take WF for himself, the two options are mutually exclusive, he can't find a compromise between the two because Cersei hates so much Sansa, so will he stay on his little baby masterpiece plan of stealing the Warden of the north position from the boltons, a plan on which he worked as hard or will he do the only right thing in his life and atonne for his mishap with Sansa

[rayarts]

I am pretty sure it will be EXACTLY what it has been this entire season:

Us trying to make sense of stuff, trying to merge things together, from a logical perspective. And as it happened numerous times this season, we will be disappointed, because there will be neither logic nor sense and least of all a good twist. It will be plain and predictable as most was till this point. (For the battle specifically: LF will save the day, Rickon will die, no explanations needed between Jon and Sandra, because that would make too much sense etc.) 

[CrypticWeirwood]

7 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

And yeah, I know that the Starks will probably prevail with the help of the Knights of the Vale and Sansa will Lady Sansa Stark of Winterfell, Empoweredness of the the North. 

Is that really the right title or name?  Ok, Sansa is right, but I don't know about the others.  As Lady Mormont observes, Sansa’s surname is a matter of some confusion.

Also, to be a lady, she would have to be the wife or daughter of a lord, right?  Perhaps she gains that honor by virtue of supposedly being Eddard’s daughter, but wasn’t Ned attainted?  If so, all titles that flow through him would be forfeit.

Of course, once they have their own kings again, the North need not honor southron decrees. But if that’s so, then Sansa is no longer merely highborn nobility but royalty itself.  In Continental régimes, she would be the dauphine or infanta.  But I'm not sure we have a Brythonic equivalent we might could apply here.  A prince of the blood was an aetheling, but I don't know that women counted.

[Chib]

My first post here. Some new leak for both ep 09 and 10 I found on tumblr. I don't know where she got the leaks. 
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13509096_294846830903620_619961076836862442_n.jpg?oh=697f3d93c93232802ee853d472b20b95&oe=57D69B70
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13502112_294846834236953_2091349761698510302_n.jpg?oh=22ebe795b656384f99b17bf428d07017&oe=57D10FE8

From http://aster526.tumblr.com/post/146160963212/attention-many-spoilers

[RhaenysBee]

32 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Could you please explain that without using slang like emo?  

Assume for a moment that your readership either doesn't know what you mean by your emo slang, or gets entirely the wrong idea.  What are you actually saying?

I must apologize, clearly, my readership is too sophisticated to differentiate between a four-letter word and a three-letter word as long as they look similar. 

The sentiment I intended to convey with such proletarian vocabulary was actor Kit Harington delivering a tedious depiction of a licitly agitated and downhearted Jon Snow. I also anticipate observing a more captivating performance from actor Kit Harington when Jon Snow's military engagement against Ramsay Bolton concludes with Ramsay Bolton finding himself behind bars (and not). 

18 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Is that really the right title or name?  Ok, Sansa is right, but I don't know about the others.  As Lady Mormont observes, Sansa’s surname is a matter of some confusion.

Also, to be a lady, she would have to be the wife or daughter of a lord, right?  Perhaps she gains that honor by virtue of supposedly being Eddard’s daughter, but wasn’t Ned attainted?  If so, all titles that flow through him would be forfeit.

Of course, once they have their own kings again, the North need not honor southron decrees. But if that’s so, then Sansa is no longer merely highborn nobility but royalty itself.  In Continental régimes, she would be the dauphine or infanta.  But I'm not sure we have a Brythonic equivalent we might could apply here.  A prince of the blood was an aetheling, but I don't know that women counted.

If Jon Snow prevails in military engagement against Ramsay Bolton and the latter perishes, Sansa is once again a Stark, since her holy matrimony to Tyrion Lannister is annulled in the eyes of Men and Gods based on the lack of consummation. 

According to Robb Stark's education in etiquette, every woman of noble birth is to be addressed lady. It is not illogical to assume to his education in etiquette was based on northern customs, which would indicate that Sansa is a lady regardless of being married to or being the daughter of a lord. If the reasoning is found insufficient, I can also argue that Sansa has been addressed Lady Sansa a number of times during her reluctant stay in King's Landing which also indicates that she has not ceased being a Lady in spite of her family's treason and her father's violent and untimely passing. And if the North still considers itself an independent Kingdom even though it seemed to have been reunited with the other six kingdoms by the Boltons after Robb stark's death, it would potentially make sense to address Sansa Princess Sansa based on the example of Princess Myrcella. But I'm probably incorrect being the peasant I am who doesn't know how to speak proper(LY!) to high born ladies. 

[Fayçal]

43 minutes ago, Chib said:

My first post here. Some new leak for both ep 09 and 10 I found on tumblr. I don't know where she got the leaks. 
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13509096_294846830903620_619961076836862442_n.jpg?oh=697f3d93c93232802ee853d472b20b95&oe=57D69B70
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13502112_294846834236953_2091349761698510302_n.jpg?oh=22ebe795b656384f99b17bf428d07017&oe=57D10FE8

From http://aster526.tumblr.com/post/146160963212/attention-many-spoilers

ok now i am freaking hyped

The Manderly's changing alliegences is just freaking great if it's true.

 

BUT: the many pictures we had since the shouting of the episode didn't show any Manderly banner, or am i wrong ?

[Schwarze Sonne]

36 minutes ago, Chib said:

My first post here. Some new leak for both ep 09 and 10 I found on tumblr. I don't know where she got the leaks. 
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13509096_294846830903620_619961076836862442_n.jpg?oh=697f3d93c93232802ee853d472b20b95&oe=57D69B70
https://scontent-hkg3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13502112_294846834236953_2091349761698510302_n.jpg?oh=22ebe795b656384f99b17bf428d07017&oe=57D10FE8

From http://aster526.tumblr.com/post/146160963212/attention-many-spoilers

I see. Sansa better hide her plea to LF from Jon and co becaause they'd be very mad at her for concealing important information. I was in support of Sansa until she lied to Jon about LF. Back then I didn't think much since I thought Jon would have found more men to help him. However, with the numbers of soldiers Jon possessed vs Ramsay's, and Sansa's keeping to urge Jon to go to war for her's sake (I highly doubt she was thinking of the world crisis by the WW), I am very disappointed in Sansa. I hope she won't be getting smug like a boss bitch for having the Vale Army saving Jon's army when she concealed things from him, ordering him to fight in a hopeless battle and playing the game on him like LF by lying again and again.

[Fayçal]

6 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I see. Sansa better hide her plea to LF from Jon and co becaause they'd be very mad at her for concealing important information. I was in support of Sansa until she lied to Jon about LF. Back then I didn't think much since I thought Jon would have found more men to help him. However, with the numbers of soldiers Jon possessed vs Ramsay's, and Sansa's keeping to urge Jon to go to war for her's sake (I highly doubt she was thinking of the world crisis by the WW), I am very disappointed in Sansa. I hope she won't be getting smug like a boss bitch for having the Vale Army saving Jon's army when she concealed things from him, ordering him to fight in a hopeless battle and playing the game on him like LF by lying again and again.

Also i wonder what happen after (if?) she marry sweet robyn, cauz in the books he die and a certain Harry who have arryn blood is lord of the Vale.

[CrypticWeirwood]

57 minutes ago, RhaeBee said:

I must apologize, clearly, my readership is too sophisticated to differentiate between a four-letter word and a three-letter word as long as they look similar. 

I am a wizard in a tree. Such scholars do not dip into the future, but the past.

And thank you.

[CrypticWeirwood]

42 minutes ago, Fayçal said:

Also i wonder what happen after (if?) she marry sweet robyn, cauz in the books he die and a certain Harry who have arryn blood is lord of the Vale.

Robert Arryn does not die in the books, and as Sansa’s cousin, he makes the perfect mate for her.  They’re both repressed skin-changers.

[Chib]

48 minutes ago, Schwarze Sonne said:

I see. Sansa better hide her plea to LF from Jon and co becaause they'd be very mad at her for concealing important information. I was in support of Sansa until she lied to Jon about LF. Back then I didn't think much since I thought Jon would have found more men to help him. However, with the numbers of soldiers Jon possessed vs Ramsay's, and Sansa's keeping to urge Jon to go to war for her's sake (I highly doubt she was thinking of the world crisis by the WW), I am very disappointed in Sansa. I hope she won't be getting smug like a boss bitch for having the Vale Army saving Jon's army when she concealed things from him, ordering him to fight in a hopeless battle and playing the game on him like LF by lying again and again.

I think Sansa is walking on thin ice, sooner or later she might turn dark towards either LF and the Vale or Jon.... Hopefully it's LF.

[Unknownfinger]

20 minutes ago, Chib said:

I think Sansa is walking on thin ice, sooner or later she might turn dark towards either LF and the Vale or Jon.... Hopefully it's LF.

Sansa will need to walk the path with LF so she can in the end reject him and be responsible for his downfall. As the show enters ASOIAF's ACT III: Horror, Magic and Sci-Fi Oh MY! The purely political animals of the Spider and Mockingbird are not long for this world.