[Spoilers] Rant & Rave without Repercussions - First We Take King's Landing Edition

[Wayward Sand Star]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And it's not even a good parody. It can't be considered 'good' in any genre/category, because it's too dumb and too illogical, and the all characters are inconsistent even when compared to the way they were portrayed previously.

And he's a fake, he's not the Night's King from the books, just a generic faux Night King. 

Both excellent points.

[Le Cygne]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah that was still season 2 Cersei, before she had fully morphed into Carol.

It's hilarious how right we ranters have been about the Carolification of Cersei, which is is now proven by how many people see her blowing up the sept full of many innocent people, kinslaying [again] her ex lover Lancel, and torturing a nun as badass, cool, a deserved moment of empowerment and something worth cheering for.

So they Carolified her just to make her evil deeds seem cool. Awesome.

[Aryya Stark]

24 minutes ago, Sir Loin Steak said:

Unless someone's favourite character was Hot Pie, I think pretty much everyone's favourites have been butchered. But yeah they turned her into a psycho-killer, which is abhorrent. Her book character is tragically on a dark trajectory but she's not going to set up elaborate, ironic punishments for people as if she was bloody Jigsaw! Book Arya hasn't lost her humanity and there's still hope for her, this creature on the show is a self-righteous version of Ramsay (with a Wolverine-level healing factor to boot). The show version was well off the rails by the time she killed Trant, they cut her time among ordinary people in Braavos, they cut her killing a Night's Watch deserter (which was significant to her true loyalties and personal sense of justice), they completely messed up the House of Black & White, they inexplicably had her lie about the euthanasia water, they cut her connection to Nymeria, which in turns disconnects her from her siblings. They've always avoided her having any negative reactions to using extreme violence. They gave her the nihilistic viewpoint that "Nothing is nothing".

In this week's outside the episode Bennioff says of Arya's plotline, "In some ways it's the cleanest narrative of them all." Says it all really.

Huh....I didn't know Benioff said that...well that explains a lot. 

25 minutes ago, The Knight in Motley said:

Dany: Swear Loyalty to me.  And no more kinslaying!

Dorne: Done.

It worked with the Dothraki, it worked with the Ironborn.

In the Game of Scripts, you win or you don't.

This is probably what will happen in the show...the one dimensional characters of the show are so disgusting.

[Aryya Stark]

Oh btw, what was the point of Benjen Stark? That was it? He was just supposed to save Bran? And to think that I have spent years wondering about his fate and the great impact he will have on the plot when he returns lol.

[TepidHands]

3 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

Oh btw, what was the point of Benjen Stark? That was it? He was just supposed to save Bran? And to think that I have spent years wondering about his fate and the great impact he will have on the plot when he returns lol.

Normally I'd say they reintroduced him to kill him, but he's already dead. 

[The Wull]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Was the first thing I thought during the crowning scene.... wait! what? didn't they all blow up with the sept?

The first thing I thought during that crowning scene...who were all those worthless Kingsguard filing in?  How many times now have they failed? Why do they even still have jobs?  

[Aryya Stark]

3 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

Normally I'd say they reintroduced him to kill him, but he's already dead. 

I was very disappointed with his entire plot....he was just reintroduced to rescue Bran. There was no explanation of where he had been all this time...what he was up to ....what he is planning...not much dialogue between him and Bran. How come his eyes are not blue....why isn't he a zombie wight? If there was an explanation I missed it.

[Ser Quork]

1 hour ago, TepidHands said:

That's gotta be a nominee for a Carol this season, even if it wasn't actually *IN* the show. Remember last season's Carol nominees for most meta line? 

In all honesty, I voted for Myrcella's line, but Theon's was great, too. The fandom spoke. 

It had to be Theon's.  I burst out laughing when he said it.  It was classic.

59 minutes ago, Neds Secret said:

It was in outside the episode, others have the link

And used to hilarious effect in Preston Jacob's ep.10 review. 

Speaking of which, this also made me laugh.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ0XZPt9uyw Adding a dose of Mel Brooks at the end crowned it.

 

[Le Cygne]

I had to add it to my signature, couldn't resist.

Also just checked the video out, the contradictory clips at the beginning:

Sandra: We have to get Rickon back!... then... We'll never get Rickon back...

The retcon about Theon and St. Tyrion (it was the opposite)...

Stannis saying winter is coming.... then... the shot of green grass.

[TheSerb]

28 minutes ago, Aryya Stark said:

I was very disappointed with his entire plot....he was just reintroduced to rescue Bran. There was no explanation of where he had been all this time...what he was up to ....what he is planning...not much dialogue between him and Bran. How come his eyes are not blue....why isn't he a zombie wight? If there was an explanation I missed it.

IIRC, Benjen explains that he never actually died, but almost died. So now he's somewhere in the middle. Still sucks, though, because we have been wondering about this guy for years and years and if this is what it all amounted to, then fuck.

[Le Cygne]

38 minutes ago, TepidHands said:

Normally I'd say they reintroduced him to kill him, but he's already dead. 

Good one.

They knew we couldn't care about Coldhands, a minor character, unless he was played by a main character, except... Benjen is a minor character. Using this rationale, another minor character could have played Jeyne... And main character Sansa could have kept her own story...

[The Drunkard]

I thought this season was less disappointing than the previous few were, but I'm not very invested anymore. 

Worst part was having a potential Dillane vs Mcelhatton showdown replaced with Harrington and Rheon, and then ending it with Littlefinger saving the day. Jesus.

[kissdbyfire]

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

I thought this season was less disappointing than the previous few were, but I'm not very invested anymore. 

Worst part was having a potential Dillane vs Mcelhatton showdown replaced with Harrington and Rheon, and then ending it with Littlefinger saving the day. Jesus.

Couldn't possibly agree more. UGH.

[Ser Quork]

6 minutes ago, TheSerb said:

IIRC, Benjen explains that he never actually died, but almost died. So now he's somewhere in the middle. Still sucks, though, because we have been wondering about this guy for years and years and if this is what it all amounted to, then fuck.

As I recall, he said he did die but the CotF stopped the Others' magic taking hold.  So he's Undead but not a wight.

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

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Worst part was having a potential Dillane vs Mcelhatton showdown replaced with Harrington and Rheon, and then ending it with Littlefinger saving the day. Jesus.

Yep, we were swindled out of great older actors.

[Apathetic Onlooker]

1 hour ago, Wayward Sand Star said:

I understand your point, but I feel you sort of miss the point in literature and film as art. That is to say, that one of the values of art as mimicry of real life is that it allows its viewer to explore a whole variety of ideas and notions about human existence without having to experience them in real life. So, yes, of course, war and rape are abhorrent, but they are also unfortunate parts of our reality; if simulated rape or war -- or whatever other dark and horrible part of human nature is portrayed to viewers -- somehow lead to the glorification of rape and war, the fault lies with the viewers, not the book/show.

But you should be able to differentiate between giving accolades to a show that features (rather graphical) instances of violence, and glorifying the horrific content it showcases. 

if there's anything I despise, it's having to disabuse people of viewpoints I never expressed.  Where in my post do I condemn the idea of depicting violence, war, and rape in fiction?  What I dislike is the glorification of it-- especially in a body of work that largely condemns it.  Do you think if I hated the very depiction alone of violence or controversial material in art that I would even be on this forum about A Song of Ice and Fire?  Please stick with my actual arguments, read carefully, and do not attempt to infer things I never stated.  

My argument was in criticism of how the show extols these acts.  How it takes a story that is largely about the horror, tragedy, and sadness of war and turns it into "Yeah!  Hurrah!  Torture them bastards!  Kill those scum!   War is justice!  Rape that bitch!  Those people were bad guys anyway so they deserve it!"  On Youtube, you've got videos like "Top 10 Game of Thrones Moments of Justice" and other nonsense where people all gather around and scream hell yeah to butchery, sexual assault, and death on a show that is supposed to condemn it.  This is not art.  Its pandering to the lowest common denominator who like to imagine these concepts in comfortable terms rather than challenging them. Who like to see people as heroes and villains (or us versus them) instead of layered individuals that may just not deserve what you wish upon them. Instead of telling the story in a way that may make them feel uncomfortable about seeing their wish-fulfillment come to life, it just gives them exactly what they want.  

Hell, Theon Greyjoys chapters are exactly made this way for a reason.  We're introduced to a character that does a lot of abominable things.  People look at him and just imagine all they'd love to do to him.... And then he gets tortured by Ramsey Snow and we find ourselves horrified of what we wished on this poor man.  Did he do horrible things?  Absolutely.  He murdered children, killed a mentor, and betrayed the family that raised him. Did he deserve to be so destroyed and tortured in the way he was?  Well-- I'm pretty sure the book and even the show of the first 3 seasons were abundantly clear in that regard.  But now suddenly, it's okay for Arya to go ax-killer on the Freys and we're supposed to pump our fists and cheer and find this empowering and just?  This is the problem.

You won't find many popular artist known for works made to appease governments, peoples, institutions, or social norms of their time.  The best ones are always the ones that depict controversial material either subversively or overtly.  Example:  "The Master and Margarita" by Mikhail Bulgakov, who had to keep his work of parody against the Soviet Union in secret for fear of death by firing squad, versus ALL of the socialist realism 'artists' that were all party hacks trying to curry favor.  His work is remembered to this day.  Their's isn't.

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if simulated rape or war -- or whatever other dark and horrible part of human nature is portrayed to viewers -- somehow lead to the glorification of rape and war, the fault lies with the viewers, not the book/show.

Implying I think people aren't responsible for their own actions...?  What is this logic of yours?  No, I of course am not saying that.  Jesus, you really do presume a LOT, you know that?  I'm not saying someone who watches this show is gonna go pick up an ax and rape his neighbor.  But art does often hold a message that is meant to resound within us.  And it, like debate, can have the power to teach and influence thinking, especially if it's willing to tackle difficult topics that people aren't used to confronting. When that message is so backward and ridiculous as it is, it's absolutely worthy of condemnation and reality-checking. Especially when it betrays a source material that promotes the exact opposite (thus the word 'bastardization').  

And like it or not, a piece of popular fiction that does promote a destructive theme, does have influence.  Like when you see Business Insider making articles about 9 Political Lessons From 'Game Of Thrones', or Eurasia Review with Middle Eastern Chaos Is A ‘Ladder’ In The Real Game Of Thrones – Analysis, or other nonsense articles.  People do actually look to fiction and compare it to the real world.  How many kids that watched war movies that made it all look fun and cool suddenly shat their pants when they signed up for the military and found out what REAL war looks like?  

And before you start, I'm not advocating censorship or some other such nonsense.  If people want to write garbage where they glorify violence, rape, etc.,  fine.  But do I advocate publicly challenging when a piece of fiction is passing off ridiculous themes and when people actually revel in the grotesqueness of what they're seeing.  I do believe in exposing stupidity where it exists and pointing out how disgusting a message may be.  I do believe in calling trash what it is.  I do believe in calling out the show writers as being hacks that have completely butchered their source and twisted its message to match their own nihilistic view.  I do believe in showing the people that walk away thinking war, violence, torture and such are cool the reality of what they're espousing.  That's what a free market place of ideals is for after all.  

I apologize for the length and my tone, if it comes off harshly.  But I am annoyed at having to defend myself from a strawman argument (whether deliberate or just a misunderstanding of what I wrote), clarify the obvious, and respond to an accusation that I don't understand 'the point' of literature or film as art.  

[Liver and Onions]

In regards to Cersei and the fate of Septa Unella, I can certainly see Book Cersei enacting a terrible revenge if/when she gets a chance. Pre-Walk of Shame Cersei can't quite stomach witnessing Qyburn torture the Blue Bard. But post-walk? I can trust GRRM to make it every bit as uncomfortable as Theon's torment. For some readers, it may be a case of, "okay, Cersei's gonna get revenge... OH MY GOD!" going from (perhaps) anticipated satisfaction to horror. 

I agree that such torture and rape is inexcusable. Often, that's the thing that pushes a character over the point of no return. Compare book Arya's quick kills to the torture of Trant, who of course has a case of Sudden Pedophilia. Even book Dany has a moment, ordering the torture of the wine seller in the investigation of the murdered Unsullied. 

I can only see post Walk of Shame Cersei sitting there quietly, smiling at Uncle Kevan's words, letting everyone think her claws are well and truly clipped, all the while hoarding her hates and plans for revenge. If she does set fire to King's Landing, the whole city may indeed burn, and she will be Queen over ashes and ruin. 

Cersei IS the patriarchy, really. She follows its rules except the ones that say she can't play the game. She is all too eager to push out those in charge so she can step into their spots. She isn't out to make things better for anyone but herself. Does she make legitimate points with how she's treated with regards to being a "brood mare?" Yes, we all see that. And that is the problem with a lot of the female cast on GOT right now; Are they winning for a broader sense of justice and equality? Or are they just winning the ability to do what they want, right the wrongs done to them personally, and no farther, and being unburdened by any sense of family loyalty (I guess Yara still cares about Theon, maybe?), compassion, or conscience? 

[Le Cygne]

This article says it well, it's not enough to just depict the horrors, there should be clear critique, or it just comes off as aesthetic:

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The rationale, or even excuse, that shows with this philosophy offer is that the kind of racism or sexism they portray is historically accurate (never mind, of course, that Game of Thrones takes place in a fictional universe). In other words, these shows depict women who are treated like disposable objects and ethnic or racial “others” who wantonly destroy life because that's the way it was.

But historical accuracy and fear of anachronism are not good excuses for representing racial and sexual politics in the way that Game of Thrones does. Deadwood began its run with some similarly shocking occurrences of sexual violence and racial caricature. But that show also offered blistering and uncomfortable critiques of the culture that enabled and encouraged those acts, and it offered layered portraits of women and ethnic and racial minorities who survived and resisted that dismal age.

There's no evidence of such critique so far in Game of Thrones. Every act of brutality, every assaulted woman, every exoticized barbarian is presented for the delectation of the audience. No prostitute appears on screen without her bosom already exposed, no transgressive sex act occurs without the frame of luxuriant tapestries or the glow of moonlight upon it. This show's historical misogyny and racism are purely aesthetic, and that's a problem we should hope this series works out on the double...

It follows, then, that, if Game of Thrones can find its place in the personal (in the power, corruption, and integrity to be found in individual souls), then it can transcend the ugly social and historical dynamics that it so casually relies on and reproduces.

http://www.slantmagazine.com/tv/review/game-of-thrones-season-one

[Liver and Onions]

14 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

I thought this season was less disappointing than the previous few were, but I'm not very invested anymore. 

Worst part was having a potential Dillane vs Mcelhatton showdown replaced with Harrington and Rheon, and then ending it with Littlefinger saving the day. Jesus.

I admit, book Jon is a favorite of mine, and I don't think Kit does a bad job, with good direction. But now you've got me dreaming of a Stannis/Jon battle team-up versus the Boltons Senior and Junior. (Multiple characters being awesome and consistent in one place? Pinch me!) 

As long as I'm dreaming, the TARDIS teleports into the North, Sandor steps out, kills Littlefinger, declares everything, "sorted!" And then there's a big dance number. Stannis grinds his teeth. It makes more sense than season 6 as a whole. 

[LadyFrostheart]

May I rant a little? Usually not much of a talker, but upset and have to vent... Here goes.

The finale got a perfect 10 on imdb, unbelievable. Blowing up stuff and killing is more important than decent writing apparently.

I'm not complaining about direction, effects, music and all that, it's the writing and some of the acting that ruins so much for me. The last two seasons have gone downhill really fast for me. D&D knew for years in advance that they would have to finish the story themselves, they had plenty of time to come up with something much more decent than this. Honestly, when viewers/fans can come up with better story lines/theories than professional, paid writers, something is wrong.

Characters are suffering from multiple personality disorder, making it very hard for me to root for anyone anymore. Tyrion is a cliche of his former self, literally 'drinking and knowing stuff', Sansa is a dumb lying broad, Arya a psycho and it goes on and on. Not to mention a lot of the important roles are played by actors with not too little range. Probably why Dany's scenes have always been so boring.

Story lines being brought up only to lead absolutely nowhere, Riverlands was pointless, no characters evolved or anything. I was looking forward to some nice Tully Frey action but was left disappointed. Cercei gets away with mass murder and is crowned like its no big deal. Wildfire also didn't seem very wild anymore. I could fill pages with everything wrong with the last two seasons...

Oh and the teleporting, Bran and Sam take ages to get anywhere, but LF, Varys, Jaimie etc get wherever in less than an episode?

Not to mention bringing back characters only to kill them off almost immediately, like D&D have this giant broom and they are hastily sweeping the map of unwanted characters to prepare for the endgame. Next season characters will spontaneously drop dread the moment a new scene starts, that's how bad it will get. Death used to be shocking, sad, now it's not doing much for me anymore.

Also, some people actually prefer wolves over dragons, it's so unfair to cut and kill the wolves the way they do, and yet we get dragons shoved into our faces over and over(all 3 are still alive and well by the way)? Can't wait for a better adaption of the books, show D&D how it's supposed to be done. Are D&D reading these forums, do they care about our opinions?

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

39 minutes ago, Ser Quork said:

It had to be Theon's.  I burst out laughing when he said it.  It was classic.

And used to hilarious effect in Preston Jacob's ep.10 review. 

Speaking of which, this also made me laugh.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ0XZPt9uyw Adding a dose of Mel Brooks at the end crowned it.

 

This is great, took more thought about themes and paying attention to previous writings than then entirety of season 6.