King Ned Stark Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 The two great patriarchs of the westerlands and the north seem to be polar opposites, as if they were meant to be juxtaposed with one another. From politics to family, their approaches seem as different as night and day. How they govern: Quote Ned Stark, "know the men who follow you and let them know you. Do not ask your men to die for a stranger." Compared to... Quote Tywin Lannister, "there is a task for every tool and a tool for every task." Tywin moved men like pieces on a chessboard, whatever it took to advance his agenda. Ned, by contrast, led by serving, dining with his subjects, and not just his lords' bannermen, but men most/some lords would never take notice of. Ned even traveled to his bannermen's castles, a practice that seems unique to his style of rule. Their philosophy: Quote Ned Stark, "a wall is only as strong as the man who defends it." Compared to... Quote Tywin Lannister, "one man atop a wall is worth ten men below it." An interesting difference in beliefs. Tywin views strong structures as a catchall for actual strength. Whereas Ned puts strength in the human spirit; a man's courage, loyalty, dependability. Tywin depends essentially upon two men; Kevan, his younger brother and puppet, and Jaime, who utterly fails him. Compared to Ned, when he thinks trouble between himself and the crown is inevitable, tells Cat to send word to Glover and Tallhart to fortify Moat Cailin, two "lesser" lords of the north, and not the closest to MC. And their children: Quote Ned Stark, "when winter comes the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Compared to... Quote Tywin Lannister, "you are not my son." And, "you are no son of mine." Said to both of his sons. If they don't adhere strictly to Tywin's view of what a Lannister is, they're disowned. Ned hires a Braavosi First Sword to train his daughter because she's unconventional, Tywin puts his son on a weak left flank to ensure victory. On compassion: Quote Ned, "mercy is never a weakness," to Renly. Reynes of Castamere, Tarbecks, the Antlered Men, "a fool more foolsish than most once jested even Tywin's s*** is flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep within the bowels of Casterly Rock." Tywin, consumed by his legacy, all three of his children have turned upon each other, and denied him what he wants. Ned's children do the opposite. Ned sullied his own legacy to protect a nephew, Tywin helps rig a jury against his son while sleeping with the woman Tyrion loved. So Ned will bear the shame to protect his, Tywin will push the shame on his own to get his jollies. Catlyn remarks that Ned would go where the fighting is the most dangerous. Tywin leads from the rear. Ned will die to keep his word, Tywin lies to his own child and has a woman gang-raped to protect the legacy. Does anyone think Tywin would have dared trade Ned for Jaime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 hours ago, King Ned Stark said: On compassion: Quote Ned, "mercy is never a weakness," to Renly. Reynes of Castamere, Tarbecks, the Antlered Men, "a fool more foolsish than most once jested even Tywin's s*** is flecked with gold. Some said the man was still alive, deep within the bowels of Casterly Rock." I don't agree. There is a difference between mercy and forget about traitors. As Tywin told Quote When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you So serve the traitors what their betrayal had cost them but after that you help them so you are merciful. The Reynes and the Tarbeck were given many chances to correct their mistakes and they thought that they didn't had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 And we clearly see which one worked better. House Stark has been cast down is entirely reliant on others to restore it, including a southron king. Tywin's children may be a wreck but at least CR still stands and the Lannisters still rule the West. Tywin alienated one son to the point he killed him but Ned isn't that great a father honestly, his own son is a disaster of a king, he was too weak to put his foot down on Bran's climbing, and he let's Arya do whatever she wants too. Tywin is too strong and overpowering for his own good while Ned is too soft and weak for his own good. It's actually quite funny when you consider the Northmen are often perceived as the harsh bunch but Tywin makes Ned look like a little kitten in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 18 minutes ago, Boarsbane said: And we clearly see which one worked better. House Stark has been cast down is entirely reliant on others to restore it, including a southron king. Tywin's children may be a wreck but at least CR still stands and the Lannisters still rule the West. Tywin alienated one son to the point he killed him but Ned isn't that great a father honestly, his own son is a disaster of a king, he was too weak to put his foot down on Bran's climbing, and he let's Arya do whatever she wants too. Tywin is too strong and overpowering for his own good while Ned is too soft and weak for his own good. It's actually quite funny when you consider the Northmen are often perceived as the harsh bunch but Tywin makes Ned look like a little kitten in comparison. Ned wasn't a true Northman. He was raised in the Vale, and so his obsession with honour comes from the Arryns, not the Starks. The true Starks who made the North their own are compared to savage wolves like Ned's brother Brandon. He was large, strong, hot-blooded, and unafraid to fight when he was challenged. He wasn't smart at all, but in a way, neither was Ned. Neither were made for Southern courts, but when we look at those Starks who made the North their own, it's clear that they were more like Ned than Brandon. Just look at Theon the Hungry Wolf. And I maintain that Rickon will be that same wild wolf when he returns from Skagos with an army of ruthless Stoneborn at his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 1 minute ago, Canon Claude said: Ned wasn't a true Northman. He was raised in the Vale, and so his obsession with honour comes from the Arryns, not the Starks. The true Starks who made the North their own are compared to savage wolves like Ned's brother Brandon. He was large, strong, hot-blooded, and unafraid to fight when he was challenged. He wasn't smart at all, but in a way, neither was Ned. Neither were made for Southern courts, but when we look at those Starks who made the North their own, it's clear that they were more like Ned than Brandon. Just look at Theon the Hungry Wolf. And I maintain that Rickon will be that same wild wolf when he returns from Skagos with an army of ruthless Stoneborn at his back. Ned did not get his honor from any Arryn. Arryn was not an honorable man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolorous Gabe Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 17 minutes ago, Boarsbane said: And we clearly see which one worked better. House Stark has been cast down is entirely reliant on others to restore it, including a southron king. Tywin's children may be a wreck but at least CR still stands and the Lannisters still rule the West. Tywin alienated one son to the point he killed him but Ned isn't that great a father honestly, his own son is a disaster of a king, he was too weak to put his foot down on Bran's climbing, and he let's Arya do whatever she wants too. Tywin is too strong and overpowering for his own good while Ned is too soft and weak for his own good. It's actually quite funny when you consider the Northmen are often perceived as the harsh bunch but Tywin makes Ned look like a little kitten in comparison. But why do these others help to restore it? Ned's legacy surely plays a major part in that. By the end of the story, Ned's ways will be vindicated and Tywin's cast into oblivion. In my opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, Canon Claude said: He wasn't smart at all, Why people think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, Dolorous Gabe said: But why do these others help to restore it? Ned's legacy surely plays a major part in that. By the end of the story, Ned's ways will be vindicated and Tywin's cast into oblivion. In my opinion of course. Better to never find yourself completely reliant on others to begin with, imo. And there will always be ruthless and ambitious men like Tywin, maybe not as successful but people aren't going to suddenly stop looking out for their own interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 16 minutes ago, Boarsbane said: Better to never find yourself completely reliant on others to begin with, imo. True. However, there is always the chance that the Liege lord will need a bannerman's help. What is more important then? A loyal bannerman or bannerman who because the Liege lord he is feared and hated will think twice about helping his Liege lord? Do we have actually see any of Tywin's bannerman who would had died for him and his family just as the Northmen were ready to die for The Ned's little girl? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: True. However, there is always the chance that the Liege lord will need a bannerman's help. What is more important then? A loyal bannerman or bannerman who because the Liege lord he is feared and hated will think twice about helping his Liege lord? Do we have actually see any of Tywin's bannerman who would had died for him and his family just as the Northmen were ready to die for The Ned's little girl? They march to war on his command, if they don't realize this could possibly lead to their deaths then they're either immensely arrogant or stupid. He surrounded by enemies at Harrenhal and cut off from the Westerlands but they fight on. I don't expect them to have much loyalty to Cersei because frankly she's proven herself an idiot and vile women, but pretty sure they'd follow the likes of Jaime and Kevan with utter loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Just now, Boarsbane said: They march to war on his command, if they don't realize this could possibly lead to their deaths then they're either immensely arrogant or stupid. He surrounded by enemies at Harrenhal and cut off from the Westerlands but they fight on. I don't expect them to have much loyalty to Cersei because frankly she's proven herself an idiot and vile women, but pretty sure they'd follow the likes of Jaime and Kevan with utter loyalty. They knew what was going to happen if they didn't marched to Tywin's side but that isn't what I am asking. The Northmen are ready to die in order to avenge the Starks and save The Ned's little girl, while the Westerlanders had fought for Tywin who of them has fought to avenge him and die for him because he loved him and not because he was afraid of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Pirtle Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 And yet they both ended up in the same place, the tight embrace of the many-faced god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Ned Stark Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 Woah, forgive me, got busy, will respond when I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said: They knew what was going to happen if they didn't marched to Tywin's side but that isn't what I am asking. The Northmen are ready to die in order to avenge the Starks and save The Ned's little girl, while the Westerlanders had fought for Tywin who of them has fought to avenge him and die for him because he loved him and not because he was afraid of him. Some Northman do, others conspired and succeeded in killing Robb at the Red Wedding. They always are ignored for some reason. Who cares if they love him so long as they respect and obey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 Just now, Boarsbane said: Some Northman do, others conspired and succeeded in killing Robb at the Red Wedding. They always are ignored for some reason. Who cares if they love him so long as they respect and obey. One Northman, Roose. The Karstarks abandoned Robb but didn't gave him to the Lannisters. Once Robb died the Northmen who loved them were conspiring to avenge him and were ready to die in order to help his family, once Tywin was murdered no one batted an eye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 It is the difference between Ned and Ty . The Westermen will fight for Tywin , but the Northmen will die for Ned . The mountain clans mobilized for Ned's girl (Arya) . Ned is a true north man , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Targaryen Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Ned and Tywin were really different, but also had many similarities. They were Lords Paramount, died and subsequently had their legacies shattered/waned. According to some people, they both also hid a Targaryen bastard under their cloaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Neither legacy is shattered, they defined their houses and their children. Jon for Ned, Jaime and Tyrion for Tywin. And they will clash, no prizes for guessing who is going to win. But ultimately, both sides will play a part in saving the world, and do so by adhering to the best of their father's qualities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordPathera Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 The true test of which legacy is stronger depends on what happens when they're gone. When Ned died, the North remembered. It ceded from the Iron Throne and even after the Red Wedding, the North still remembers and marches through ice and snow to save Ned's daughter from traitors and usurpers. When Tywin died, most of House Lannister's power and capability died with him. At this point, it's not a question of if House Lannister will collapse, but a question of who will deal the mortal blow (Dany, Aegon, Euron, or Jon) and when the axe will fall. At this point it appears as though Eddard's methods were better for the North and his family; can't say the same for House Lannister and the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Yeah, the north and Starks are in pretty good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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