Was Lyanna Stark the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

[Mladen]

One word: Dernhelm...

[Kienn]

10 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Infact Jorah says he was never a tourney Knight.

Not sure what you're trying to say with this then.

I'm saying that Jorah would have been trained at jousting even if he wasn't ever a tourney knight. Lances are used by heavy horse in battle and are part of general combat training for knights and lords. That training allows him to enter the tourney after the Greyjoy rebellion because he was conveniently there. Otherwise he simply never went out of his way to attend tourneys and is thus not a "tourney knight".

 

14 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

And what say you on why Howland stayed ever loyal to House Stark? Isn't the fact that their his overlord, and that Lyanna, Neds sister, was so awesome to him a better explanation than Ned being the KotLt? 

Lyanna was good to him without also being the KotLT. She defended him from the squires. Whether it was Lyanna or Ned or Brandon or Benjen that fought as the KotLT would all equally add to his loyalty to the Starks as a whole. Ned also invited him to stay in his tent, a reason to be loyal to Ned specifically. And since he is a Stark bannerman his default status should be loyalty to them.

[Kienn]

5 minutes ago, Risto said:

One word: Dernhelm...

Two words: Danny Flint. 

[Mladen]

3 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Two words: Danny Flint. 

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. We can make some tangential connection between her and Lyanna, but in terms of this debate, it is kinda pointless. Especially as I don't see how it supports (or does it even support?) your argument that it was Eddard, a man who had no reason to hide himself from anyone at the Tourney.

[Macgregor of the North]

10 minutes ago, Kienn said:

Not sure what you're trying to say with this then.

I'm saying that Jorah would have been trained at jousting even if he wasn't ever a tourney knight. Lances are used by heavy horse in battle and are part of general combat training for knights and lords. That training allows him to enter the tourney after the Greyjoy rebellion because he was conveniently there. Otherwise he simply never went out of his way to attend tourneys and is thus not a "tourney knight".

 

Lyanna was good to him without also being the KotLT. She defended him from the squires. Whether it was Lyanna or Ned or Brandon or Benjen that fought as the KotLT would all equally add to his loyalty to the Starks as a whole. Ned also invited him to stay in his tent, a reason to be loyal to Ned specifically. And since he is a Stark bannerman his default status should be loyalty to them.

I am pointing out that Jorah, as no Tourney Knight won the day with determination to please the woman he wanted, by his own admission. Lyanna could easily have been the KotLt who uses her superb horse riding ability and determination to have the three squires taught honour. It's actually very easy to believe this and I struggle to see why you can't. 

Yes Lyanna was good to him, helping solidify Howlands loyalty to House Stark. This is written in GRRMS notes. What is not written anywhere and is not hinted at whatsoever is that Howland was especially loyal to Ned because Ned was the KotLt.

[Macgregor of the North]

@Kienn if the Knight of the Laughing tree was Ned, then why was he wearing ill fitting armour made up of bits and pieces? Ned could easily find proper matching armour that actually fits, he is a sensible cautious man. This goes against what we know of him, to recklessly just throw on mismatched armour that doesn't fit and wouldn't protect him properly. This is jousting, people can get seriously injured or die.

Neds style seems more to talk sternly and openly to the Knights to teach their squires honour. Not to hide behind mismatched ill fitting armour to ride in a tourney. Ned does not really go in for all that secretive stuff.

This is more like behaviour of the wolf blooded Lyanna who loves to ride and fight no?, but she obviously can't openly do it, so had to hide herself.

[The Wolves]

19 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes it was definitely Lyanna.  There's really no other reason for all the references to her being such a good horse rider.  Jon is not a particularly good rider, so it is not to establish that connection, it must be something else.  Then there is her meeting Rhaegar.  This establishes why Rhaegar fell for her, and how they first met.

When I first read the story I thought it was Ned also, since that would explain why Howland was so loyal to Ned.  However there is no reason for Ned to hide his identity.  He is a male who was not already jousting in the tourney. 

Finally George decided to introduce us to a character named Lady Lance, a 14 year old jousting girl.  If that isn't pointing out the truth idk what is.

To the bolded if I'm not mistaken Jon is described as a good rider. 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Yes, it was Lyanna. No good reason neither for Howland nor for Ned to hide their identity before and after the joust. The opposite: both "I'm defending my lord father's man" and "I'm defending my honor" would be perfectly acceptable to everyone around. No good reason to either Howland or Ned to amplify the risk of losing life or limb with the ill-fitting, mismatched armor. Howland was explicitly offered an actual armor by his hosts, and Ned would know how to get one, too. Howland Reed, by his own judgment, was a crappy horseman, so his confrontation with three champions of the day would have ended very differently.

On the other hand, Lyanna would not have been allowed to compete in the lists, so she had an excellent reason to hide her face, and to scrounge up an armor, borrowing here and there. And, unlike Howland Reed, she was a centaur. And she showed unladylike interest in arms when she was a child. And her being the KOTLT actually has a point.

To quote Captain Malcolm Reynolds, "why are we still talking about this?".

[1000th Lord Commander]

Upon first hearing the stories, I (like Bran) believed it to be Howland Reed. But with the evidence of the later books, I switched to Lyanna. It fits her better.

I also agree that this is what drew her to Rhaegar's attention, and why he gives her the crown of a queen of love and beauty. He thinks she deserves it for her actions. What happens after that, well.. who knows?

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

To quote Captain Malcolm Reynolds, "why are we still talking about this?".

Too much time and too little TWOW. - BTW, any news when it is due?

[dornishdame]

Yes, it was Lyanna. She had the means, the ability and the motive, and her participation in the tourney provides us with a potential explanation why Rhaegar Targaryen may have named her Queen of Love and Beauty. 

My general rule of thumb with ASOIAF is that if something is mentioned more than once, you are supposed to pay attention to it. 

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one . . . which no doubt accounted for his mother's pinched expression. He puts the point just where he means to put it, and seems to have the balance of a cat. Perhaps it was not such a fluke that he unhorsed me. It was a shame that he would never have the chance to try the boy again. He left the whole men to their sport. (Jaime II in A Feast for Crows)

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." (Reek III in A Dance with Dragons)

So, both Roose Bolton and Jaime Lannister tell us that skill in horse riding is imperative for skill at jousting - to defeat three tourney champions, the Knight of the Laughing Tree must have been a good jouster; it follows, then, that they must also have been a good horse rider. 

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember." (Arya III in A Storm of Swords)

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. (The Turncloak in A Dance with Dragons)

So, we have established from more than once source that 1) jousting requires great skill at horse riding, and 2) Lyanna Stark was a skilled horse rider. Lyanna therefore had the skill required to participate in the jousting - and her size would not have been an issue; we learn that Barristan entered his first tourney at the age of ten (he was not as successful as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, it is true, but his size was no hindrance to wearing armor and participating).  

He limped toward the gallery. At close hand, the brilliant blue armor looked rather less splendid; everywhere it showed scars, the dents of mace and warhammer, the long gouges left by swords, chips in the enameled breastplate and helm. His cloak hung in rags. From the way he moved, the man within was no less battered. A few voices hailed him with cries of "Tarth!" and, oddly, "A Beauty! A Beauty!" but most were silent. The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm. (Catelyn II in A Clash of Kings)

A single instance rather than multiple ones in this case, but when Catelyn reaches Renly's encampment in Clash, she mistakes Brienne for a man, as her voice is muffled by the helm that she is wearing.  If we compare this to:

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

It is possible, as established in the example of Brienne at Renly's encampment for a woman's voice to be mistaken for a man's when she is speaking through a helm.  Thus we have established that Lyanna had the skill to participate in a joust, and the ability to disguise the fact that she was a woman.  The story may refer to 'he' and 'him' and 'his' - but part of the mystery is that we are not supposed to know who the knight is straight away; this would be nigh on impossible if the story referred to 'she' and 'her' and 'hers'. 

As to thematic links, one theme that runs throughout ASOIAF is the idea that those most capable of 'true' knightly behavior are not those with Ser at the beginning of their name.  We see it time and time again with the likes of Brienne of Tarth (another woman) among others.  Yes, I am aware that none of Lord Rickard's children were knights; but that theme is important here. In Brienne's arc, the them is taken further and we are shown a woman who believes in chivalry and in the knightly code of honor but is prevented from opening practicing it at times - and is dismissed as ludicrous at others - as a result of the fact that she is a woman. 

Note that it is Lyanna and not one of her brothers that rescues Howland; the closest any of the other Starks come to trying to avenge him is Benjen, when he suggests that Howland participate in the tourney.  She is the only one of them that actively does something to right the wrong that has been done.  And the only one that need hide who she was - as Brienne would have. 

To take Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree further, I believe it is his unmasking of her as the mystery knight that propels Rhaegar Targaryen towards the fateful decision to name Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. She could not risk unmasking herself at the tourney - particularly not when King Aerys declared the mystery knight to be his enemy, and certainly not after he sent Rhaegar to track the mystery man down:

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

The mystery knight was never identified as only his shield was found, yet unmasking Lyanna as she hid her shield would explain why Rhaegar named her Queen of Love and Beauty; a reward for the chivalry she had shown in fighting for Howland's honor - the only reward that a lady could traditionally be given.  

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, dornishdame said:

My general rule of thumb with ASOIAF is that if something is mentioned more than once, you are supposed to pay attention to it.

Exactly. There are even more quotes about horsemanship being the prerequisite for jousting, e.g. Wyman Manderly mentioned that in his youth, he was decent enough rider to be able to enter the lists.

Besides, in TWOW

Spoiler

we have the young Elia Sand whose favourite pastime is jousting. A pretty unusual hobby which happens to tie to our mystery story involving another young woman known already to be very good at riding as well as sparring.

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

7 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But there are also very strong reasons to doubt the Lyanna argument. Even the good Lyanna arguments.

The novels so far have made it VERY clear that fighting well takes open, supported training. For men and for women. Both actual battle fighting and tourney fighting.

Even when Jaime makes his statement about jousting mostly being riding, he's in the process of watching Loras, an extremely well-trained fighter. And he's watching Loras practice--apparently even excellent jousters need continual practice. Plus, Jaime himself is extremely well trained and extremely talented--makes his statement seem worthy of a grain of salt.

"Lady Lance" Elia--she's been trained openly her whole life. No evidence she was ever afraid of getting found out practicing. Or deprived of necessary equipment and trainers.

What  we know about Lyanna martially: 

• She could ride well.
• She could beat her little brother at playing stick swords.
• She had enough moxie to scatter squires with a tourney sword (no indication in the scene of whether that's due to skill or badass attitude.)
• But her father forbid her from carrying a sword. 
• And she's afraid of getting caught at even playing with stick swords.

Can't see anything in there to fit what the novels have made VERY clear: to fight/joust well, one needs extensive, specialized, supported training.  If anything, it shows Lyanna was forbidden such training.

Could she be some sort of prodigy that can beat three champions without specialized training? Could she have been given training on the sly by Winterfell's master of arms? Absolutely.

But so far, nothing in the books is showing that. Seems rather to point to the opposite.

This is not true, Ser Quentyn ball won a jousting tourny without ever having jousted before.

[aryagonnakill#2]

4 hours ago, The Wolves said:

To the bolded if I'm not mistaken Jon is described as a good rider. 

Well I am not saying he isn't a good rider, but he specifically mentions he is the better sword whereas Robb was the better lance, and I don't think there is any importance placed on Jons riding ability.

[Springwatch]

I do believe it's Lyanna, for all the reasons given above. But it annoys me because I just can't believe you don't need a lot of strength to joust. The armour is heavy. The lance is solid wood, long and heavy. I feel like I'm suddenly being forced to read a story for children - realism not required.

Finally I've got round to researching a bit. I found this excellent site about modern jousting: http://www.thejoustinglife.com though I haven't found all my answers there yet.

There is this, from an interview with jouster Andreas Wenzel:

Quote

I think most readers here will know that the joust is fairly simple as far as horsemanship goes. You canter your horse in a straight line, as close to the tilt rail as possible. Okay, you could debate nuances and get into whether left or right bend is better, and whether a Travere is preferable to a straight line, and whether and when you should accelerate before impact. Nevertheless, even at that level of refinement, I would maintain that the art and complexity of the joust lies predominantly in the handling of the lance – how and when do you couch, when do you lower your lance, how do you lower your lance, where do you then hit with how much accuracy and consistency, at which angle and therefore with how much force. In a good jouster all of this happens semi-automatically, drilled into muscle memory by years of training.

On the other hand, another guy (can't find the quote again) says the horsemanship was the most difficult thing to learn.

I think you need a lot of strength and horsemanship both.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I do believe it's Lyanna, for all the reasons given above. But it annoys me because I just can't believe you don't need a lot of strength to joust. The armour is heavy. The lance is solid wood, long and heavy. I feel like I'm suddenly being forced to read a story for children - realism not required.

That is kind of an accurate assessment. The backstory does, on occasion, diverge from ASOIAF's usual darkness, cynicism and mud into Heroic Fantasy territories. When do ever two opposing princes have a one-on-one in the middle of the battlefield? In real world, if a king/prince/general happened to died in battle, then it was by the hand of some Joe WTFIsthisguy. But Robert and Rhaegar settled the issue in their spectacular duel at the Trident. Like Sauron and Elendil. And, realism be damned, that makes an epic story.

8 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

 

Finally I've got round to researching a bit. I found this excellent site about modern jousting: http://www.thejoustinglife.com though I haven't found all my answers there yet.

There is this, from an interview with jouster Andreas Wenzel:

On the other hand, another guy (can't find the quote again) says the horsemanship was the most difficult thing to learn.

I think you need a lot of strength and horsemanship both.

In real life? Sure you do. In the story? I'm willing to let it slide.

[aryagonnakill#2]

22 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

I do believe it's Lyanna, for all the reasons given above. But it annoys me because I just can't believe you don't need a lot of strength to joust. The armour is heavy. The lance is solid wood, long and heavy. I feel like I'm suddenly being forced to read a story for children - realism not required.

Finally I've got round to researching a bit. I found this excellent site about modern jousting: http://www.thejoustinglife.com though I haven't found all my answers there yet.

There is this, from an interview with jouster Andreas Wenzel:

On the other hand, another guy (can't find the quote again) says the horsemanship was the most difficult thing to learn.

I think you need a lot of strength and horsemanship both.

I get what your saying here, but we do have the character Lady Lance, a 14 year old girl who we know for a fact jousts, so in terms of that we have to suspend realism.

[Free folk Daemon]

4 hours ago, dornishdame said:

Yes, it was Lyanna. She had the means, the ability and the motive, and her participation in the tourney provides us with a potential explanation why Rhaegar Targaryen may have named her Queen of Love and Beauty. 

My general rule of thumb with ASOIAF is that if something is mentioned more than once, you are supposed to pay attention to it. 

Jousting was three-quarters horsemanship, Jaime had always believed. Ser Loras rode superbly, and handled a lance as if he'd been born holding one . . . which no doubt accounted for his mother's pinched expression. He puts the point just where he means to put it, and seems to have the balance of a cat. Perhaps it was not such a fluke that he unhorsed me. It was a shame that he would never have the chance to try the boy again. He left the whole men to their sport. (Jaime II in A Feast for Crows)

"For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." (Reek III in A Dance with Dragons)

So, both Roose Bolton and Jaime Lannister tell us that skill in horse riding is imperative for skill at jousting - to defeat three tourney champions, the Knight of the Laughing Tree must have been a good jouster; it follows, then, that they must also have been a good horse rider. 

Both horses were lathered and flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over, and grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself then. She knew the fight was done. "You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember." (Arya III in A Storm of Swords)

The lantern light in her eyes made them seem as if they were afire. "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I'd later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. And my lord father was always pleased to play host to the heir to Winterfell. My father had great ambitions for House Ryswell. He would have served up my maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, but there was no need. Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing, yes. It hurt, but it was a sweet pain. (The Turncloak in A Dance with Dragons)

So, we have established from more than once source that 1) jousting requires great skill at horse riding, and 2) Lyanna Stark was a skilled horse rider. Lyanna therefore had the skill required to participate in the jousting - and her size would not have been an issue; we learn that Barristan entered his first tourney at the age of ten (he was not as successful as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, it is true, but his size was no hindrance to wearing armor and participating).  

He limped toward the gallery. At close hand, the brilliant blue armor looked rather less splendid; everywhere it showed scars, the dents of mace and warhammer, the long gouges left by swords, chips in the enameled breastplate and helm. His cloak hung in rags. From the way he moved, the man within was no less battered. A few voices hailed him with cries of "Tarth!" and, oddly, "A Beauty! A Beauty!" but most were silent. The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm. (Catelyn II in A Clash of Kings)

A single instance rather than multiple ones in this case, but when Catelyn reaches Renly's encampment in Clash, she mistakes Brienne for a man, as her voice is muffled by the helm that she is wearing.  If we compare this to:

"Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?" (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

It is possible, as established in the example of Brienne at Renly's encampment for a woman's voice to be mistaken for a man's when she is speaking through a helm.  Thus we have established that Lyanna had the skill to participate in a joust, and the ability to disguise the fact that she was a woman.  The story may refer to 'he' and 'him' and 'his' - but part of the mystery is that we are not supposed to know who the knight is straight away; this would be nigh on impossible if the story referred to 'she' and 'her' and 'hers'. 

As to thematic links, one theme that runs throughout ASOIAF is the idea that those most capable of 'true' knightly behavior are not those with Ser at the beginning of their name.  We see it time and time again with the likes of Brienne of Tarth (another woman) among others.  Yes, I am aware that none of Lord Rickard's children were knights; but that theme is important here. In Brienne's arc, the them is taken further and we are shown a woman who believes in chivalry and in the knightly code of honor but is prevented from opening practicing it at times - and is dismissed as ludicrous at others - as a result of the fact that she is a woman. 

Note that it is Lyanna and not one of her brothers that rescues Howland; the closest any of the other Starks come to trying to avenge him is Benjen, when he suggests that Howland participate in the tourney.  She is the only one of them that actively does something to right the wrong that has been done.  And the only one that need hide who she was - as Brienne would have. 

To take Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree further, I believe it is his unmasking of her as the mystery knight that propels Rhaegar Targaryen towards the fateful decision to name Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty. She could not risk unmasking herself at the tourney - particularly not when King Aerys declared the mystery knight to be his enemy, and certainly not after he sent Rhaegar to track the mystery man down:

"That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." (Bran II in A Storm of Swords)

The mystery knight was never identified as only his shield was found, yet unmasking Lyanna as she hid her shield would explain why Rhaegar named her Queen of Love and Beauty; a reward for the chivalry she had shown in fighting for Howland's honor - the only reward that a lady could traditionally be given.  

What she said.

[Sly Wren]

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Also, on Lyannas apparent lack of Tourney experience and training, it appears in GRRMS world it's not needed if you have sheer determination and can at least fight. Ask Jorah.

"I fight as well as any man, Khaleesi, but I have never been a tourney knight. Yet with Lynesse's favor knotted round my arm, I was a different man. I won joust after joust. Lord Jason Mallister fell before me, and Bronze Yohn Royce. Ser Ryman Frey, his brother Ser Hosteen, Lord Whent, Strongboar, even Ser Boros Blount of the Kingsguard, I unhorsed them all. In the last match, I broke nine lances against Jaime Lannister to no result, and King Robert gave me the champion's laurel."

Exactly: Jorah was a well trained fighter, but had not been a tourney knight. And well trained fighters were trained in jousting--which was also tied to a battle skill.

Robb's not a tourney knight, but he's been trained with a lance. As have Jon and Theon--also no tourney fighters.

The point: they've all been extensively trained by a master-at arms for years.

Lyanna was afraid of getting caught by old Nan when she was playing with sticks--she has not been trained, encouraged to train, or supported--as all other fighters, male or female, we've seen in the novels have. 

9 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

Not even Jaime Lannister could knock the man down in nine tries. Now add to this the fact that Lyanna can also ride like she is half a horse herself, and to be a good jouster, you must be a good horsemen(women).

Yes--but even the good horsemen, like Loras, TRAIN extensively. As in the quote from Jaime--he's watching the men train. With Masters at arms. Nothing in the novels suggests that all one must do is ride well. Instead, the novels show that these fighters require extensive, supported, training. Including the women fighters. Lyanna wasn't even allowed a sword.

She'd have to be a lot more than a good horsewoman (as Brandon is also "half a centaur," but is still defeated, even with his extensive training). She'd have to be a bloody tilting savant to pull this off without training. Perhaps she is--but nothing in the novels shows that yet.

[Free folk Daemon]

On 28/09/2016 at 2:17 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Yes it was definitely Lyanna.  There's really no other reason for all the references to her being such a good horse rider.  Jon is not a particularly good rider, so it is not to establish that connection, it must be something else.  Then there is her meeting Rhaegar.  This establishes why Rhaegar fell for her, and how they first met.

When I first read the story I thought it was Ned also, since that would explain why Howland was so loyal to Ned.  However there is no reason for Ned to hide his identity.  He is a male who was not already jousting in the tourney. 

Finally George decided to introduce us to a character named Lady Lance, a 14 year old jousting girl.  If that isn't pointing out the truth idk what is.

I agree. The fact Lyanna was born in 266 or 267AC and the Harrenhal tourney was in 281AC would make her 14 or 15 at the time of the tourney, around the same age as Lady Lance, who is jousting at 14 years old. It would be a huge coincidence, in my humble opinion anyway, if their ages and interests are not somehow linked.