Why I really hope Tyrion isn't Aerys' son

[Balerion's Whiskers]

I think there will be more than 3 people to ride dragons but there are specifically Three Heads of the Dragon. Even if Tyrion is one of those Heads, he's not a Targaryen, no more than Aegon Blackfyre/Brightflame/Mopatis is. If Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married, Jon isn't a Targaryen either. So GRRM gets around the 'all dragon riders don't necessarily have to be Targaryens' issue with no problem. Chances are, Rhaegal and Viserion (and maybe even Drogon) will have several riders between them and as those riders die, new ones control them. Or a dragon may die. Some of the Three Heads may not physically ride a dragon either. Dragon riders and Three Heads of the Dragon mean two different things to me.

[ravenous reader]

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Never have I claimed there is proof but to dismiss all the evidence seems unreasonable

I agree.  There is plenty of textual evidence for Tyrion as a Targ bastard, a convincing account of which I might be able to recite for you had that been my intention.  As you know, I am no stranger to undertaking close readings of the text, as well as acknowledging the close readings contributed by others.

That is however not the point of this OP.  We were invited to share how we feel about the potential authorial decision to make Tyrion a Targ, not to prove he is or isn't.

Although there's plenty of evidence supporting it, I nevertheless feel it would be a cop-out and diminishes the dramatic impact in terms of irony and most of all tragedy.

Basically, he would be let off the kinslaying in retrospect -- OK, all good, no harm done, didn't kill my father after all, just killed the enemy and got vengeance for my 'real' family. Basically, it would provide Tyrion easy justification for hating and therefore killing Tywin -- he's an old family enemy, after all.  It's all a bit too cheesy for my taste.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

What about the 'snarling'...Do dragons 'snarl'?  Or is that just another of GRRM's unfortunate vocabulary missteps when it comes to describing sounds and voices, like the 'booming' voice of the knight of the laughing tree...

Maybe I just don't see why a dragon wouldn't be described as "snarling"? But once again Tyrion would still be half Lannister and Lions do snarl...

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Fair point.  And in AGOT, Tyrion is described as 'wolfish' while breakfasting with his brother and sister the morning after Bran was thrown from the tower.  So, GRRM needs to work on the precision of his sounds, because these identities are all over the place!  However, had GRRM intended to emphasise Tyrion's affinity with the dragons in the Moqorro prophecy, instead of his separateness, surely he could have chosen a more convincing adjective than 'snarling'?

@Lost Melnibonean once said that Tyrion may be a 'deuteragonist' rather than 'protagonist.'  In other words, an important sounding board to the main characters, not excluding serving a vital role as fulcrum point around which much of the action turns, but not necessarily biologically related to the main character/s, e.g. Dr Watson as deuteragonist to Sherlock Holmes as protagonist.

You'll hate this but I think the "howling" was intentional and meant to reference a wolf...

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

How do you know the rock in question is Casterly Rock?  Perhaps it's under Aegon's rock, an ancient sacred site upon which the Red Keep is built and out of which the dungeons are carved:

Interesting, it's a valid question... is Aegon's Rock ever referred to as "the Rock"?

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"Down here, beneath the Rock?"

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Jaime fears some kind of fell beast lurking beneath the waters -- perhaps dragons beneath the 'Waters', signifying the mystery at the base of his identity.  If he were a Targaryen bastard, he could be a 'Waters' like 'Rennifer Longwaters' the gaoler he meets in the Red Keep dungeons when he's trying to get to the bottom of the conspiracy involved in Tywin's murder:

My thought is that a beast beneath the waters is a kraken... but that's purely speculation.

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I think Jaime misheard the three-headed dragon.  The beast only 'seemed' to be saying, just as Jaime 'seems' to be a Lannister...'seems' is not the same as 'said'; 'seems' is not the same thing as 'is'.  I believe he misheard the dragon's words, because what the dragon was actually saying to him was 'I know you, Kin-slayer.'

'A man takes much for granted when he has two hands.  Ladders...crawling...' as well as his identity as a Lannister, which is being dismantled, the further down he goes.  Jaime's looking for answers, and what does he find?  A confluence of the ways, like a web at the center of which he 'finds himself,' in more ways than one -- and dragons upon dragons.  Even Longwaters goes on at length, much to Jaime's annoyance, about hidden drops of dragon blood:

Well on the one hand Jaime is known as the Kingslayer because he killed a Targaryen King, so it's not like it would be out of place for these skulls which were mounted above him as he killed Aerys to remind him of it... Also, Jaime did free Tyrion from his cell which lead to Tywin's death.

51 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Jaime spilled his own royal blood, proving that the oath of a man with royal blood is as dubious as Jaime thinks it is!  He's sick of bumping into dragons and hearing about the blood of the dragon, but you see Jaime just doesn't get it and nor do most of the readers who interpret the preponderance of dragons in Jaime's quest as being merely indicative of a guilty conscience-- like Jon Snow, Jaime knows nothing about who he really is.

He also mentions Aerys in the quote you provided, whose blood he spilled, so I see what you are saying but I guess it all just seems much more far fetched and than the Tyrion-Targ indications...

I also really like the idea of Tyrion and Jaime killing each other's fathers as an idea, so maybe I'm biased (no for sure biased)

[Little Scribe of Naath]

23 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

You can't just ignore "in the midst of all" and at he's crystal clearly set apart! That's not wishful thinking it's basic literacy. If Moquorro said I saw you as a dragon, it would be sort of a give away right? But Dany and Jon both appear as people in their dreams, even when they include flaming swords, wings springing from her back, or a shadows... Trying to claim that a dream of dragons with Tyrion in the middle is evidence against him having a Targ dad seems counter intui

So there are dragons all around him, but he's a small man casting a large shadow snarling in the midst of that....apparently that means he's a dragon too. Cool, I'm illiterate then.

Really, what was the need for that line at all? What was the need for GRRM to specify that he appeared as a small "man" in the vision in the middle of the other dragons? He could have just ended that sequence at "and you." 

This is not Dany's or Jon's (prophetic, ahem) dream, this is Moqorro's vision in the flames.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

I agree.  There is plenty of textual evidence for Tyrion as a Targ bastard, a convincing account of which I might be able to recite for you had that been my intention.  As you know, I am no stranger to undertaking close readings of the text, as well as acknowledging the close readings contributed by others.

That is however not the point of this OP.  We were invited to share how we feel about the potential authorial decision to make Tyrion a Targ, not to prove he is or isn't.

Although there's plenty of evidence supporting it, I nevertheless feel it would be a cop-out and diminishes the dramatic impact in terms of irony and most of all tragedy.

Basically, he would be let off the kinslaying in retrospect -- OK, all good, no harm done, didn't kill my father after all, just killed the enemy and got vengeance for my 'real' family. Basically, it would provide Tyrion easy justification for hating and therefore killing Tywin -- he's an old family enemy, after all.  It's all a bit too cheesy for my taste.

I hear you and my posts up-thread were intended to share my feelings on just that... how I think it improves the story, creating a great foil between Tywin and Ned while at the same time I don't think it takes away from the tragedy... Much in the same way people call Theon a Kinslayer for killing Starks when there is no blood relation at all... The father who raised you is as, if not more, important than blood... something I think is supposed to be important.

If we are talking about the complete picture, I think that Tyrion being a Targ Bastard also could provide great symmetry to the picture. As I find I'm so often drawn to looking at the original cast of POV's from GoT and am reminded that the six left alive are (in order of age) Tyrion, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, and Bran. I suspect that these, in The Song of Ice and Fire, are three Starks (unless anyone seriously doubts the legitimacy of Neds other kids...) and three Targaryen Bastards, but I know that I may be a minority in suspecting the classic tales of the heritage of Tyrion and Dany... though most have come around on Jon at this point, so rather than focus on that I'll try and stick to Tyrion.

I just don't think that finding out later that Tywin isn't his dad really lets him off the hook... Although I do expect a lot of nice cheesy stuff to happen, I think that its the winding road that leads to the neatly tied ending which makes for a great tale... So it seems like a plus for me.

And while we are talking nice ways things can work out... the original dance of dragons had black, red and a white dragon... dare I suggest the colors nicely match Dany, Tyrion, and Jon...

[chrisdaw]

What will cause the bigger meltdowns, Sansa and Tyrion reuniting in (un)holy matrimony or Tyrion proving Aerys' son?

It doesn't mean GRRM got it wrong, it means you never truly understood the character.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

57 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

So there are dragons all around him, but he's a small man casting a large shadow snarling in the midst of that....apparently that means he's a dragon too. Cool, I'm illiterate then.

Really, what was the need for that line at all? What was the need for GRRM to specify that he appeared as a small "man" in the vision in the middle of the other dragons? He could have just ended that sequence at "and you." 

This is not Dany's or Jon's (prophetic, ahem) dream, this is Moqorro's vision in the flames.

I do think it indicates he is a dragon... if we are being literal, Moquorro dreamed of dragons and ends the list with Tyrion... (sorry about the bold, formatting on this site still gives me fits)

 

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"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

He dreamed of Dragons... old, young, bright, dark, and Tyrion... in the midst of all...

not them all... He's one of the Dragons.

Also, dragons casting shadows appear a ton... Just one example:

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 So he said only, "The dragons will do what the dragons will do. If they do come, it may be that just the shadow of their wings will be enough to dishearten the slavers and send them fleeing."

Ok two...

Spoiler

Dragons wheeled overhead, their shadows sweeping across the upturned faces of friend and foe alike.

I mean Dany even starts calling Drogon a shadow...

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He did not see her, though. The grass concealed her, and he was looking elsewhere. Dany followed his eyes, and there the shadow flew, with wings spread wide. The dragon was a mile off, and yet the scout stood frozen until his stallion began to whicker in fear. Then he woke as if from a dream, wheeled his mount about, and raced off through the tall grass at a gallop.

 

But I would also contend that Tyrion does have prophetic dreams... though we rarely see them, and as pointed out above he seems to fear them and activly avoid dreaming...

Both of these seem examples of prophesy and involve dragons:

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"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

And much later:

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That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel asdragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping.

Two heads, dealing death with an axe as big as him, dragons wheeling above (appearing small, like Tyrion), striking blows, dragons blow fire... red ruin.

But as with all dreams, the prophetic included, interpretation is at best a tricky business. Could they just be nightmares of the normal type, yes, but it just seems like a lot of evidence in a story that begs us to look for "heads of the dragon"

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

27 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

What will cause the bigger meltdowns, Sansa and Tyrion reuniting in (un)holy matrimony or Tyrion proving Aerys' son?

It doesn't mean GRRM got it wrong, it means you never truly understood the character.

I would count all of the above, especially the meltdowns as likely

[Little Scribe of Naath]

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

He dreamed of Dragons... old, young, bright, dark, and Tyrion... in the midst of all...

not them all... He's one of the Dragons.

Sorry, I still don't see it. He's clearly set apart to be a small man, in the midst of the other true,false, bright, dark, young and old dragons we'll be meeting in these books.

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, dragons casting shadows appear a ton... Just one examp

Shadows are used for a ton of people in these books. The Others are described as pale shadows.

Sandor Clegane is often said to cast a large shadow:

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Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.

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A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun. He had lowered the visor on his helm. It was fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound, fearsome to behold, but Tyrion had always thought it a great improvement over Clegane's hideously burned face.

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He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. 

One can easily say Melisandre casts "shadows". Arya often likens herself to a shadow ("Quiet as a shadow")

Wolves, wights, are all likened to shadows.

Another example:

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He mounted, the reins in his hand, and wheeled the horse around to face the night. Samwell Tarly stood in the stable door, a full moon peering over his shoulder. He threw a giant's shadow, immense and black. "Get out of my way, Sam.

That's really not evidence.

 

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But I would also contend that Tyrion does have prophetic dreams... though we rarely see them, and as pointed out above he seems to fear them and activly avoid dreaming...

Both of these seem examples of prophesy and involve dragons:

The dream which Daemon II Blackfyre had was of "a dragon hatching at Whitewalls." which turned out to be Egg. That was a prophetic dragon dream. There's no proof Tyrion's dreams were the same.

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Two heads, dealing death with an axe as big as him, dragons wheeling above (appearing small, like Tyrion), striking blows, dragons blow fire... red ruin.

Umm,,,the dragons are in the sky while Tyrion is on the ground fighting with Barristan and Bittersteel. How does this prove Tyrion himself is a dragon?

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But as with all dreams, the prophetic included, interpretation is at best a tricky business. Could they just be nightmares of the normal type, yes, but it just seems like a lot of evidence in a story that begs us to look for "heads of the dragon"

The "three heads of the dragon" is also as much a prophecy as any other. Interpreting that as three Targaryens riding three dragons can be equally tricky, especially when that's one of the most literal and obvious interpretations possible. Except Maggy the Frog, I can't think of any of GRRM's prophecies that have come true literally.

[Maxxine]

5 hours ago, estermonty python said:

He's a Lannister no matter what - don't forget his mother was a Lannister, and her cadet branch of House Lannister will technically become the main branch upon the death of Kevan's surviving son Martyn (unless Tyrek comes back into the story or Jaime or Lancel are relieved from their vows).

Technically yes he will have Lannister blood. But I think in application that's not the way it's going to be seen. He's won't be considered a Lannister.  Plus a lot of the issues comes from specifically being tywin's son. All that gets lost imo if he's a targ bastard.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 minute ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Sorry, I still don't see it. He's clearly set apart to be a small man, in the midst of the other true,false, bright, dark, young and old dragons we'll be meeting in these books.

Hey, we disagree, that's ok I see what you are saying I just don't think he could have come any closer to calling Tyrion a dragon and still have any mystery.

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Shadows are used for a ton of people in these books. The Others are described as pale shadows.

Sandor Clegane is often said to cast a large shadow:

But the quote we are talking about is about Dragons... a list of dragons...

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

One can easily say Melisandre casts "shadows". Arya often likens herself to a shadow ("Quiet as a shadow")

Wolves, wights, are all likened to shadows.

Another example:

Yes absolutely, it's a commonly used phrase in the series... but the quote we are talking about is more than just Tyrion and his shadow... its a list of dragons where Tyrion is referred to as casting a shadow. I think the context is important.

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

That's really not evidence.

Again we disagree, it's evidence, not proof certainly, but evidence.

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The dream which Daemon II Blackfyre had was of "a dragon hatching at Whitewalls." which turned out to be Egg. That was a prophetic dragon dream. There's no proof Tyrion's dreams were the same.

Well he dreamed of his dad dying and he killed his dad... but like all prophesies we could argue about there meaning and legitimacy.

But Tyrion does have dreams of dragons, and he does dream of his dad dying and he does kill his dad... not proof, I mean normal dreams can come true too, does that make them prophesy? I don't know, but what he claimed to dream of came true.

Again however I'd like to point out that I think while tied together dreams of dragons and prophetic dreams don't all have to be one and the same. Aemon dreamed of dragons so real as to appear more than just a dream even though he'd never seen one... and Daemon Blackfyre dreamed of Duncan the Tall being a member of the Kingsguard:

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"You're drunk." And the crow once called the raven black.

"Wonderfully drunk. Wine makes all things possible, Ser Duncan. You'd look a god in white, I think, but if the color does not suit you, perhaps you would prefer to be a lord?" Dunk laughed in his face. "No, I'd sooner sprout big blue wings and fly. One's as likely as t'other."

"Now you mock me. A true knight would never mock his king." The Fiddler sounded hurt. "I hope you will put more faith in what I tell you when you see the dragon hatch."

So the fact that Tyrion dreamed of dragons, and that he dreamed of his father dying, appear significant to me.

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Umm,,,the dragons are in the sky while Tyrion is on the ground fighting with Barristan and Bittersteel. How does this prove Tyrion himself is a dragon?

Doesn't prove, but Tyrion having "two heads" neither with a nose I'm reading as one his disfigured face and the other a dragon (I don't think dragons have noses per say, more of a snout). I'd imagine we'll see Tyrion cry as a dragon laughs (blows fire). Not the only way to read it surely. But it's a really odd dream to have (and include) if it isn't somehow more significant than just a nightmare.

The Bittersteel bit is interesting right? Blackfyre reference anyone? A great bastard himself... You don't think that seems at all prophetic?

And the multiple head thing is just so reminiscent of the three headed dragon...

2 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

The "three heads of the dragon" is also as much a prophecy as any other. Interpreting that as three Targaryens riding three dragons can be equally tricky, especially when that's one of the most literal interpretations possible.

I agree completely.

However, the original three headed dragon symbol comes from Aegon and his sisters who all rode dragons... so while it isn't at all certain that the "three heads of the dragon" will be three dragon riders with Targ blood, it isn't the most ridiculous of ideas.

It could just mean that there will be three dragons, and that's already the case, but i wouldn't say case closed.

But what I've been trying to say is that the evidence does seem to pile up in favor of Tyrion having dragon blood and that he will ride a dragon...

However, I understand disagreement too... that's what makes discussions fun.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

If you're interested in hearing about this particular 'trick,' see the rest of the article.  Anyway, the description of a 'fonfen' or 'fonfer' certainly sounds a lot like Tyrion, the smooth-talking double-talking trickster.  Do you think GRRM would be aware of this Yiddish expression?  Given that GRRM grew up in New Jersey, he might have heard it, with his keen ear for language, music and culture.

What a fascinating post Ravenous Reader!  I haven't heard that expression.  What comes to mind immediately is Lann the Clever and Jaime's wierwood stump dream with Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey and the shades of all their ancestors going back to Lann the Clever.  Blowing smoke in someone's ear might be a necessary survival skill for someone who was decanted from a liquor barrel, has a price on his head and no friends to speak of . 

I'm reminded that the drunken ash tree doesn't appear in isolation but in association with the 'Old Chestnut' tree like an old man with Mormont's raven perched on it's shoulder.  (Which then transfers it's perch to Jon's shoulder.) Lastly the Oak Tree with a man's raging face.

This threesome is echoed in the towers at Moat Cailin:  the drunken tower, the children's tower with it's broken crennelated crown and the gatehouse tower with it's tree hung with ghost moss (the Black Gate?). 

The drunken god motif is picked up again with Penny and Tyrion at the Fountain of the Drunken God next to the statue of Trios where we hear the story of the dwarf carved into three pieces and fed into the three mouths of Trios.  Except for the head, which is missing.

I've wondered about this recurring theme and what you make of it.  It's also interesting to me that Tyrion is only of two characters with eyes of different color.  In Tyrion's case, green and black and in Euron's case blue and black.  So does Tyrion also have a crow's eye?  It seems to me that his two headed beserker dream where one head is slaughtering hysterically, the other head is weeping.  Not so much a conflict within himself but a battle over his mind and soul perhaps by another agency.  Green and black representing the Storm God and the big bastard racing up behind him (the bar sinister).  Don't look back, Tyrion.  LOL

 

 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yes absolutely, it's a commonly used phrase in the series... but the quote we are talking about is more than just Tyrion and his shadow... its a list of dragons where Tyrion is referred to as casting a shadow. I t

I would be inclined to agree with you if the quote hadn't actually specified Tyrion as a small man in the midst of them.

GRRM could have very easily worded the quote as "Dragons. Old and young, true and false, bright and dark, and you."  

or "Dragons. Old and young, true and false, bright and dark, and you, snarling in the midst of it all." 

If it had been something like the above, there's ambiguity there, definitely. But the fact that GRRM could have worded it this way, and yet chose not to, seems significant to me, but YMMV.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well he dreamed of his dad dying and he killed his dad... but like all prophesies we could argue about there meaning and legitimacy.

But Tyrion does have dreams of dragons, and he does dream of his dad dying and he does kill his dad... not proof, I mean normal dreams can come true too, does that make them prophesy? I don't know, but what he claimed to dream of came true.

Again however I'd like to point out that I think while tied together dreams of dragons and prophetic dreams don't all have to be one and the same. Aemon dreamed of dragons so real as to appear more than just a dream even though he'd never seen one... and Daemon Blackfyre dreamed of Duncan the Tall being a member of the Kingsguard:

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Tyrion's dream of his father dying would be prophetic if his dream involved something to do with a privy, crossbow, some element which would make it similar to the real. Otherwise you have no idea if he simply was dreaming of his dad and sis dying because he hated them.

Take Daemon's dream. He dreams of Duncan in white. That's exactly what KG wear. Or Dany's dream of her riding on a dragon to the Trident, melting an ice army away. They are metaphorical representations of a real event. There's a major difference between those dreams and simple dreams of wishes.

It's the same with Aemon and Jon. They dream of dragons in a really accurate way without having seen them. There are clear, specific descriptors of their appearance:

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Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.  

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I see them in my dreams, Sam. I see a red star bleeding in the sky. I still remember red. I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath. My brothers dreamed ofdragons too, and their dreams killed them, every one

Dany before hatching dragons:

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There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. 

These are extremely specific descriptions for people who have never seen them.

OTOH, Tyrion never says anything like this. All he says is "I dream of dragons." As @LynnS said above, how do you know that these dreams are any different from Bran dreaming of being a knight?  We've been inside his head for a really long time, and he's never given us something like Aemon, Jon and Dany's have. 

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Doesn't prove, but Tyrion having "two heads" neither with a nose I'm reading as one his disfigured face and the other a dragon (I don't think dragons have noses per say, more of a snout). I'd imagine we'll see Tyrion cry as a dragon laughs (blows fire). Not the only way to read it surely. But it's a really odd dream to have (and include) if it isn't somehow more significant than just a nightmare.

The Bittersteel bit is interesting right? Blackfyre reference anyone? A great bastard himself... You don't think that seems at all prophetic?

And the multiple head thing is just so reminiscent of the three headed drago

The two heads actually hearkens back to Maelys the Monstrous. Distantly related to a Great Bastard,

The dream seems like an indication of the Golden Company attacking Westeros, though I personally think it's much more like a nightmare.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

However, I understand disagreement too... that's what makes discussions fun

50 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've wondered about this recurring theme and what you make of it.  It's also interesting to me that Tyrion is only of two characters with eyes of different color.  In Tyrion's case, green and black and in Euron's case blue and black.  So does Tyrion also have a crow's eye?  It seems to me that his two headed beserker dream where one head is slaughtering hysterically, the other head is weeping.  Not so much a conflict within himself but a battle over his mind and soul perhaps by another agency.  Green and black representing the Storm God and the big bastard racing up behind him (the bar sinister).  Don't look back, Tyrion.  LOL

This is just my conjecture, but I've always thought the "green and black" eyes of Tyrion refers to his pivotal role during the Dance of Dragons (reinforced by Moqorro's vision.) In the original Dance, the two factions were the "Blacks" and the "Greens".

In a sense, he's the one who's set off the DotD by turning Aegon towards Westeros. I have a feeling he'll continue to have a huge role in the upcoming DotD, possibly play both sides.

[LynnS]

47 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

This is just my conjecture, but I've always thought the "green and black" eyes of Tyrion refers to his pivotal role during the Dance of Dragons (reinforced by Moqorro's vision.) In the original Dance, the two factions were the "Blacks" and the "Greens".

In a sense, he's the one who's set off the DotD by turning Aegon towards Westeros. I have a feeling he'll continue to have a huge role in the upcoming DotD, possibly play both sides.

Hey! Layers upon layers, right?  We might need a different thread for this rabbit hole. 

[ravenous reader]

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It doesn't mean GRRM got it wrong, it means you never truly understood the character.

That's a very condescending statement.  I've read many of your posts from which it's clear you're not in any position to claim a superior understanding.

Anyway, we're not debating 'understanding' here.  This OP is how we view and rate the potential authorial choice to make Tyrion a Targ. bastard. I may understand GRRM's choice -- above, I've offered a viewpoint which takes into account his conflicted relationship to his own father...basically, I suspect he may not have the stomach for that much reality -- that doesn't mean, however, I have to appreciate the choice on an aesthetic level. 

[Gertrude]

I skimmed, but did not read all of the thread, so I apologize if this has been said.

I spent a lot of time really disliking the Tyrion is a Targ theory. I thought it made the conflict between Tywin and Tyrion less powerful, completely gutted it, really. Then it settled in and re-reads happened with this simmering int he back of my head. If Tyrion turns out to be a Targ, I still think we lose a lot of pathos from the Tywin/Tyrion conflict, but we do gain a huge amount in the way of the Aerys/Tywin relationship.

Assuming Tywin knew this, and that Aerys knew Tywin knew ... Aerys is a huge dick. He inducted Jaime into the Kinsguard, stealing the true Lannister heir and making the new heir Aerys's own son and essentially laughing in Tywin's face about it. No wonder Tywin said, fuck this, I'm outta here. I think it really fleshes out that particular relationship and how Robert's Rebellion played out. If this is indeed what happened, then I am actually happy with the Tyrion = Targ scenario. I keep thinking about how everything in this series is dictated by the past, so this seems to fit that theme really well. Just my own opinion, and I get why people don't like J+A=T, but wanted to throw this out there.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

Tyrion is a Lannister.

[chrisdaw]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

That's a very condescending statement.  I've read many of your posts from which it's clear you're not in any position to claim a superior understanding.

Anyway, we're not debating 'understanding' here.  This OP is how we view and rate the potential authorial choice to make Tyrion a Targ. bastard. I may understand GRRM's choice -- above, I've offered a viewpoint which takes into account his conflicted relationship to his own father...basically, I suspect he may not have the stomach for that much reality -- that doesn't mean, however, I have to appreciate the choice on an aesthetic level. 

Condescending and true. This whole topic is about an understanding, or a lack thereof. It's not a case of choosing to make Tyrion a Targ, Tyrion didn't exist and then he decides to plug him in as a Targ for some crazy twist. Tyrion is thought up, his arc is thought up, then the Tywin relationship is developed and plugged in to bring about that Tyrion arc.

Really what this all boils down to is most people wanting the outcome which reflects worse on Tywin, or for a minority Tyrion, as that offers for them the most satisfaction.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

7 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Tyrion's dream of his father dying would be prophetic if his dream involved something to do with a privy, crossbow, some element which would make it similar to the real. Otherwise you have no idea if he simply was dreaming of his dad and sis dying because he hated them.

Exactly. Any dream of someone dying would be prophetic, because everybody dies someday. We know that Tyrion dreamt about dragons as a child, but why not? He grew up a bookworm, read a lot of stories about dragons, where dragons where described and Middle Age books are full of pictures.

Besides that a dragon is symbol of power, noone can withstand a dragon or somebody who has a dragon.

 

[Woman of War]

11 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

What will cause the bigger meltdowns, Sansa and Tyrion reuniting in (un)holy matrimony or Tyrion proving Aerys' son?

..........

Or both? LOL! I'm waiting........this forum is a bit special here.