How Daenerys will die

[TyrionTLannister]

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The resurrection concept via the kiss of fire was introduced as early as ACoK/ASoS. Jon was also only killed in ADwD. He might have known all that for a very long time. The magical concept is already there. We don't know everything about it. Just as we don't yet know the truth about Jon's heritage yet despite the fact that he has been a character since the first book.

 

Do you happen to have any textual evidence to support your claim?

[bent branch]

58 minutes ago, TyrionTLannister said:

GRRM has known Jon's ultimate fate since 1991, so if what you say is true, he would have laid the seeds for this all the way back in AGOT. I don't think he's the type of writer that would introduce an entirely new concept in the penultimate book and then have the main character die because of it. 

The idea that magic is at times weaker and stronger is a constant throughout the book. If defeating the Others causes magic to disappear entirely in the world, then all things magical will cease to exist and/or function. If Jon is resurrected with magic, then Jon only continues if magic continues. This would not be a new concept in the book. Rather it is one that has existed from the beginning of the story.

I have always been pessimistic about Dany's chance of survival (10% or less). I have always thought her story is one that leads to her death (I think she is Azor Ahai and AA is a sacrificial figure). My feelings about Jon were at first very optimistic. Once he was stabbed in ADWD I wanted to believe that he was only injured and would recover normally, never having died. However, if Jon is resurrected through R'hllor's fire, then it is very likely Jon also dies close to the end of the series. At this point I only give Jon 50-50 chances of surviving the book. I am also fairly certain he doesn't sit the Iron Throne. This is was a huge change in my thinking over the course of the books. After AGOT I was sure he would live and be king. But many other things have happened in the story and  I'm no longer so optimistic about his chances.

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, bent branch said:

I have always been pessimistic about Dany's chance of survival (10% or less). I have always thought her story is one that leads to her death (I think she is Azor Ahai and AA is a sacrificial figure).

I'd not be so sure that Azor Ahai really is a sacrificial figure. There is no confirmation that the legendary Azor Ahai sacrificed himself to defeat the darkness, nor is there any confirmation that the Last Hero did not survive his fight against the Others.

And while Dany clearly is going to be a leader in the coming War for the Dawn and is also being the promised princess insofar as she brought the dragons back it is very unlikely she will ever lead armies into battle. If that was her thing she would have developed more into some sort of warrior-queen in ACoK/ASoS, taking fighting lessons from Jorah, Selmy, and Daario and actually killing people with her own hands when she sacked Astapor and conquered Meereen.

If I'm right that there is a savior trinity - Dany, Jon, Tyrion, in my opinion - then the two men are more likely to play that part, with Dany being the commanding general/monarch.

13 minutes ago, bent branch said:

My feelings about Jon were at first very optimistic. Once he was stabbed in ADWD I wanted to believe that he was only injured and would recover normally, never having died. However, if Jon is resurrected through R'hllor's fire, then it is very likely Jon also dies close to the end of the series. At this point I only give Jon 50-50 chances of surviving the book. I am also fairly certain he doesn't sit the Iron Throne. This is was a huge change in my thinking over the course of the books. After AGOT I was sure he would live and be king. But many other things have happened in the story and  I'm no longer so optimistic about his chances.

Indeed. It will even more likely that he is not going to make it if his resurrection leaves him physically or mentally changed - say, either due to the effects of the spell or due to a prolonged stay in Ghost's body. Not to mention the possibility that this trauma is going to set him more and more apart from humanity and his peers, resulting in him taking more and more risks. Beric only lived for the mission in the end, too, and Jon has made it clear what he saw as his mission and war just before he was killed.

I mean, what exactly is your take on yourself after you have died and been resurrected? Death easily enough can become a joke in such a situation.

[Lord Friendzone]

On 1. 12. 2016 at 11:40 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Bran is going to die, and he is one of the most magical characters. But then, I honestly hope magic is not going to die again in this series so I don't like the idea that those magical people have to die. In Jon's case it is more the fact that resurrections should come with a price, a price that is going to affect your own life quite severely.

Thinking about that, it would be ever quite a stretch to assume that Jon should be able to father children after this whole thing. If Dany gets pregnant Tyrion could do the job, or whatever other consort she is going to take aside from them.

We don't know much about Jon's resurrection in the books. It might come with in a price of Ghost, he might became a follower or believer in R'hllor and trusting Mel., He already saw how accurate she was, post ressurection he could truly change Old Gods for R'hllor if it means to save the world. He'll lose part of himself. Show will be different in this and George apparently hated Jon's resurrection. I am of that opinion that magic should leave Planetos dragons, white walkers, direwolves if we count me as magical animals,. the're sort of rare species and lived there most Beyond the Wall.

I think Dany will get pregnant only by a magical blood and some who was touched by magicv like her and that is Jon, not Tyrion. In fact that he wanted a son, being a bastard and Dany wanting a daughter, It ill naturaly come to them having a child.

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Still, all female Targaryen dragonriders but Visenya weren't warriors. Thus it is not likely that Dany is going to lead an army against the Others aside from, say, flying over them and bathing the wights and Others in fire. Jon might actually engage some Others in hand-to-hand combat, or leading his men in a more direct fashion. And this would put him in a much dangerous position than Dany simply by default.

Depends what you consider a warrior because if she engages in some sort of combat, warfare = she fights whether in a traditional sense of this word or on the back of the dragon.

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I agree that only one of them could raise a child, yet I already pointed out that it is likely that we'll see Dany carry Jon's child to term. She might be pregnant in the end, carrying Jon's child after his death. In fact, that could be an interesting miracle in the end if they really fall in love and want children (and Dany still thinks she is barren).

I think it ight come simply that they fall in love and they happen to have a child Yeash, you kinda need Dany more for it than Jon but then all the foreshadowing of him being a Kong. It might be to throw us off, because not many people expects Jon to die for the second time. That's why we don't have so many threads on it or simpyl people wish for Dany todie most.

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Sure, if he survives he could be among the people reaping the rewards. Or rather working his ass of to rebuild a Realm he helped to ruin while he was the Hand of his nephew.

Tyrion clearly is George's favorite but I don't think that's going to protect him if George's is of the opinion that Tyrion should pay for his crimes.

I think he'll reap the rewards and get CR. Before the war, he qwould be realy unpopular not only for Tywin, Shae or Joffrey but for Dayn's invasion. If she's going to be viewed as a bad thing by smallfolk and lords and Aegon the good one, if she fries him as one of the lies in her HOTU, it won't add to their reputation. But post-war Westeros who knows.

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I don't think the idea of them having a living child is really necessary. It would be nice touch to see that the dynasty will eventually continue but that could also work with Dany simply being pregnant and having a good feeling (not to mention the dragons happily procreating could be a sign that House Targaryen will continue).

I mean, we are talking about people who will most likely be 16 and 17 when the series ends. There is no need for them to rush having children.

Dany will bear a living child, Jon might not be to there to see it. Iam convinced of that Dany will have a baby and that Jon will be the father. It's not so much about rushing but if it happens, it'll happen in the story. Whether they are 14(Lyanna), 16 or 17.

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I don't think so. I really like the idea that he is a permanently rooted voyeur now. Great power should come at a price, and Bran could easily enough participate in events from a distance without ever physically leaving that cave.

Let's say Jon dies or rules as  atarg, Sansa or Arya would take name of their husbands, Bran and Rickon are the only choices to save House Stark, yeah Arya or Sansa can cary their bloodline but House Stark as it was will be gone. If Rickon is truly a Shaggydog story, Bran might be the only one. But then he would get power and just handed them, maybe he'll combine it somehow or maybe House Stark is truly destined to extinguish.

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Sure, but Arya most likely will be 12/13. She should get some time to recover her humanity and heal her wounds. Not be involved in rebuilding a kingdom she didn't destroy.

By kingdom, I meant mostly the North. With her family helping each other rebuild because let's face it, the North will be pretty fucked up after the war. They're right on the frontline.

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Thinking about that - if the R'hllorian resurrection spells works for some reason now that spell might no longer work after the Others are dealt with (or after some other thing has happened) then the fire wights could then just simply die. That would be quite tragic and could certainly be part of this bittersweet ending thing. Jon would basically kill himself by defeating the Others and saving mankind.

It might be that spells works better in a war time, than post-war era.  It might be part of that magic won't be as strong, once the Others are dealt with, Also, what is the purpose of the R'hllor and his followers. What is their plan after the war? Only to defeat the evil the Great Other and his followers or then take control over the Westeros? 

[HoodedCrow]

If I rode a fire breathing dragon and had some guts, you could be sure I would ride it to lead against the Others, weather or not people called me a wimp or a warrior queen.

[AEJON TARGARYEN]

On 17/11/2016 at 4:38 PM, bent branch said:

If Dany dies, it will be because she sacrifices herself to save the world. The idea of Dany dying in childbirth is uninspired to say the least.

Agree.

[MakeThemBurn]

Dany's end is pretty obvious imho. She's bound to become the Night's Queen. Her entire story arc began with her being married off to a scary barbarian. After that she's been all about protecting her children (slaves) whose enemies will "die screaming" for trying to hurt them. The story has established her self-sacrificing nature and the fact that she can be absolutely brutal for those who hurt her children. Add to the mix the Yi Ti explanation of the Long Night in which the Maiden-made-of-light describes Dany to the T and the time loop of a world of ice and fire and you can easily figure out her end.

 

She will give birth to an heir who will get the Throne. Somehow she will become the Night's Queen in some self-sacrificing manner nodding to the Nissa Nissa (Mhysa Mhysa) -prophecy. In the end Dany becomes Maiden-made-of-light, an immortal being, ensuring the safety of all her children. No one dares to put the slaves back in chains or hurt the Targ on the Throne because they know Mama Dany would come back to kill them all. That's what she did even when she was a mere mortal. So we have the restoration of Targaryen dynasty due to the threat of the Night Queen Dany.

 

A song of ice and fire depicts one of the time loops the world GRRM has created is experiencing in a never ending manner. Doom of Valyria killed all the Targs, except the three with their dragons on a foreign soil. They ended up conquering Westeros and built a dynasty. Until they were all slaughtered - except the ones on foreign soil. So Dany and her 3 dragons once again conquer the world and build a Targ dynasty. And someday the Long Night is a mere myth yet again and the Targs are killed yet again and the Night Queen returns with the dead yet again.

 

The story we are reading now is the time loop from the destruction of House Targaryen to its restoration.

[the trees have eyes]

On 17/11/2016 at 6:32 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

There is a theory that she will die giving birth to Tyrion's daughter. I like this theory.

 

Wow, I had never actually heard that before.  I bet even Tyrion I just want to be loved Lannister couldn't fantasise about aiming that high but fortunately there are posters to do it for him.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

There is actually a pretty good to be made for Dany dying in childbirth. MMD wasn't trying to prophesy but that may be exactly what she ended up doing.

 

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When the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Extra crispy Quentyn Martell. Check.

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When the seas go dry...

Dothraki sea drying up and ghost grass moving in for good measure. Check.

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...and mountains blow in the wind like leaves.

Destroyed pyramids in Meereen. Check.

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When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child.

Still waiting on that one.

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Then he will return, and not before.

The only way Drogo "returns" and Dany is reunited with him, will be in death.

Now, leaving the vindictive Maegi aside, look at Rhaella's pregnancy history. Miscarriages. Stillbirths. And finally dying shortly after giving birth to Dany. There is something to genetics in childbearing. 

It's not a slam dunk, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 12/2/2016 at 4:10 AM, Lord Varys said:

Still, all female Targaryen dragonriders but Visenya weren't warriors. Thus it is not likely that Dany is going to lead an army against the Others aside from, say, flying over them and bathing the wights and Others in fire. Jon might actually engage some Others in hand-to-hand combat, or leading his men in a more direct fashion. And this would put him in a much dangerous position than Dany simply by default.

 

If you think that the heroes of this story are conventional soldiers, like Aragon, then I think you are sorely mistaken. Defeating the Others is not simply about going to the frontlines with a sword. Dany, Tyrion, or even Sam cannot engage with Others in hand to hand combat. But that doesn't mean what they do is not going to be any less important or heroic, or dangerous. What makes you think female dragonriders except Visenya weren't warriors, but somehow all males were? Also, I don't think the conclusion to the story is going to end up with some LOTR style battle. That would be too cliche and predictable. Others are that third species on Westeros everyone has forgotten about. I doubt this is going to end in genocide. 

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

On 11/17/2016 at 11:32 PM, TyrionTLannister said:

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried. “Mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them... - ACOK Daenerys

Since Dany is Drogon's mother, this vision could represent her embracing death at the hands of Drogon. The wording evokes her dream of getting burned by Drogon (she "opened her arms"), so both scenes could be foreshadowing the same event. 

 

That vision is about Dany's time in Mereen. You leave out the next part where Drogon saves her from those grasping things. In Mereen, Dany sort of loses her way in the politics of the city. The craziness consumes her and the last moment Drogon flies in and literally saves her when she is about to give in. Mereen is part of Dany growing up to be a leader. I think GRRM has expressed his disdain for heroes who suddenly become good kings (he specifically mentions Aragon). So I think this is part of Dany's education. Until Drogon shows up and drags her out so she can be on her destined path again. I highly doubt this refers at all to Dany's death. She was originally part of the Main Five that was going to survive the series. At least, her death is going to be really important. She could be Nissa Nissa, because Jon is now all propped up to be the Prince that was Promised. 

[chrisdaw]

Jon is going to execute her for attempting to sacrifice their child to wake the dragon from stone. The sword he uses, probably one half of ice, will become Lightbringer after it takes her life. When they burn her body in a giant pyre fuelled by a leviathan she will second life Drogon which Euron will have turned to stone. When she wakes inside Drogon she will melt all the stone away and the dragon she has become will grow into the size of Balerion.

 

[LordImp]

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Jon is going to execute her for attempting to sacrifice their child to wake the dragon from stone. The sword he uses, probably one half of ice, will become Lightbringer after it takes her life. When they burn her body in a giant pyre fuelled by a leviathan she will second life Drogon which Euron will have turned to stone. When she wakes inside Drogon she will melt all the stone away and the dragon she has become will grow into the size of Balerion.

 

Where are you getting all this ideas from? 

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Where are you getting all this ideas from? 

A range of things the first link in my sig runs through, the most succinct though is this.

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"I was alone for a long time, Jorah. All alone but for my brother. I was such a small scared thing. Viserys should have protected me, but instead he hurt me and scared me worse. He shouldn't have done that. He wasn't just my brother, he was my king. Why do the gods make kings and queens, if not to protect the ones who can't protect themselves?"

"Some kings make themselves. Robert did."

"He was no true king," Dany said scornfully. "He did no justice. Justice . . . that's what kings are for."

Ser Jorah had no answer. He only smiled, and touched her hair, so lightly. It was enough.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a football on the deck above her head. And something else.

Someone was in the cabin with her.

"Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?" Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. "Jorah, is that you?"

"They sleep," a woman said. "They all sleep." The voice was very close. "Even dragons must sleep."

A true king protects those who can not protect themselves, Robert failed to do justice for the murdered children, Jon will prove himself otherwise by preventing Dany from sacrificing their child to wake the dragon, and executing her for the attempt. Dany will die, then unexpectedly to everyone including herself, wake suddenly, inside stone Drogon, and when she wakes inside it so will the stone dragon, her fiery blood melting the stone and the dragon becoming Balerion like. The brighter a man burns in life the brighter they burn in death, and no-one will have burned brighter than Dany. It is her true awakening, the cleanse of fire, her human life is the real dream, the real nightmare, the second life as a dragon her true life. As Haggon said.

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Haggon's rough voice echoed in his head. "You will die a dozen deaths, boy, and every one will hurt … but when your true death comes, you will live again. The second life is simpler and sweeter, they say."

The someone in the cabin will be two people in her second life, the other two heads of the dragon, Drogo and Rhaego who already exist inside Drogon. Drogo as he was, returned to her, after she has beared a living child.

The kicking above her head on Balerion's deck symbolises someone mounting her, Jon riding the dragon.

Rhaego all but became a dragon in her womb, their blood shared, dragon blood, fire blood, and so she survives a funeral pyre. When her blood touches Valyrian steel, steel which captures the blood and part of the soul of those lives it takes, viola, flaming sword. The symbolic representation of god's justice, justice because that's what Jon's act of executing Dany will be, by her own words above.

From Jon's side this is the execution.

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Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

Dany is the monster, as she says herself, as Jon thinks someone who would give a living child to the flames would be. Note the above is the same thing that happens to Rhaego in Dany's waking the dragon dream, and to Dany herself in numerous dreams.

Here's Jon mounting Dany and what comes next.

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He rested for a while to let the horse graze. She did not wander far. That was good. Hobbled with a bad leg, he could never have caught her. It was all he could do to force himself back to his feet and climb onto her back. How did I ever mount her before, without saddle or stirrups, and a sword in one hand? That was another question he could not answer.

Thunder rumbled softly in the distance, but above him the clouds were breaking up. Jon searched the sky until he found the Ice Dragon, then turned the mare north for the Wall and Castle Black. The throb of pain in his thigh muscle made him wince as he put his heels into the old man's horse. I am going home, he told himself. But if that was true, why did he feel so hollow?

He rode till dawn, while the stars stared down like eyes.

The scene comes after he refuses to kill the old man, despite the stakes and how insignificant the man's life. As he will refuse to sacrifice his bastard child to save the realm.

How did he mount the mare (dragon), (note the horse is a mare and she sticks by him), without saddle or stirrups, (flaming sword) in one hand? He searches the sky for the ice dragon and rides for it, its eye staring down like a blue star. He rides to end the Long Night, for the dawn.

He's feeling hollow here because he's leaving Ygritte. In the scene it foreshadows his hollowness will be because he knows he's not coming back from fighting the ice dragon, win or lose he's not going to survive. He's leaving behind his bastard daughter to save the world for her and he will never see her again, never know her, as she will never know him. Another bastard who will never know their parents.

For what comes next refer to the Battle Above the God's eye. Note which eye cops the Valyrian sword through it, the attention paid to the splash and Kingspyre, the goodbye before hand between pregnant Nettles and Daemon, the sacrifice she makes and where its blood stains, and Daemon's ambiguous end.

[Johnimus]

This is a great thread and all, but I tend to trust the author when he says she won't die.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

2 hours ago, Johnimus said:

This is a great thread and all, but I tend to trust the author when he says she won't die.

 

When did he say that? If you're referring to the early summary, he's had some interesting comments on that, largely to the effect that he had to tell the publishers something, and he didn't have all the major points decided yet when they wanted a summary. And even setting that aside, sometimes when you're writing you find out a character you had no intention of killing has to go.

[Johnimus]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

When did he say that? If you're referring to the early summary, he's had some interesting comments on that, largely to the effect that he had to tell the publishers something, and he didn't have all the major points decided yet when they wanted a summary. And even setting that aside, sometimes when you're writing you find out a character you had no intention of killing has to go.

Which is all fine and all, but most of the stuff quoted here that is "evidence that Dany will die" come from a similar timeframe in the evolution of the series. We know he started out planning for her not to die, and yet people are obsessed with the notion that she will. I think it's implausible. Like Tolkein choosing to kill Arwen. She's the heroine of the story, one of the two or three central characters whose story it is. The title of the series is named, partly, for her, and the author's only comments about her fate in public are that she'll survive.

Now, nobody's stopping you from disbelieving that, but the available evidence simply doesn't point to it. In addition, killing her has hardly any benefit from a story perspective. What does it accomplish? What would the benefit to the story be? What theme would it reinforce, other than hopelessness? The only message I can see that could be drawn from it is that revolutions which seek to change too much, too fast, usually end in failure. But if that was what he wanted to convey, he'd have killed her in Mereen, at the hands of the Sons of the Harpy.

The people who think she'll die tend to be fans who would like to see someone else on the Throne and see her as an obstacle to their fantasy ending where Sansa or Tyrion or whoever wisely guides the realm into a new democratic era, or some such fanfic. Your last line is the tell - "a character has to go". Usually that happens because the character's existence is impeding a certain outcome. In this case, the widespread "Dany will die" theories usually come from fans who *want* a certain outcome, or think they have figured out, probably incorrectly, a certain outcome, so, in their eyes, "she needs to go".

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 hour ago, Johnimus said:

Which is all fine and all, but most of the stuff quoted here that is "evidence that Dany will die" come from a similar timeframe in the evolution of the series. We know he started out planning for her not to die, and yet people are obsessed with the notion that she will. I think it's implausible. Like Tolkein choosing to kill Arwen. She's the heroine of the story, one of the two or three central characters whose story it is. The title of the series is named, partly, for her, and the author's only comments about her fate in public are that she'll survive.

Now, nobody's stopping you from disbelieving that, but the available evidence simply doesn't point to it. In addition, killing her has hardly any benefit from a story perspective. What does it accomplish? What would the benefit to the story be? What theme would it reinforce, other than hopelessness? The only message I can see that could be drawn from it is that revolutions which seek to change too much, too fast, usually end in failure. But if that was what he wanted to convey, he'd have killed her in Mereen, at the hands of the Sons of the Harpy.

The people who think she'll die tend to be fans who would like to see someone else on the Throne and see her as an obstacle to their fantasy ending where Sansa or Tyrion or whoever wisely guides the realm into a new democratic era, or some such fanfic. Your last line is the tell - "a character has to go". Usually that happens because the character's existence is impeding a certain outcome. In this case, the widespread "Dany will die" theories usually come from fans who *want* a certain outcome, or think they have figured out, probably incorrectly, a certain outcome, so, in their eyes, "she needs to go".

Again, which comments? None of the interviews I've read have let on about any characters' ultimate fates, but if you've got one I haven't read yet, I'd be pleased to get some new info.

Bittersweet ending. GRRM has said the ending will be bittersweet. That means there will be some happy and some tragic things involved. If you think all the major characters are going to survive, you have not been paying attention. The theme it would reinforce is that sometimes great sacrifices are required. Ned's death established early on that every life is at stake in these books. One of GRRM's biggest complaints about Tolkien is that Gandalf came back, which robbed his death of any meaning or lasting consequences. 

Not me.  And again, not me. Third time's a charm I guess because...not me.

I was not talking about readers thinking a character has to go, I'm talking about writers finding themselves killing off a character they didn't expect to kill. You write the story the way it needs to be written, and sometimes that involves twists even the author does not see coming.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, TysonFury said:

That was pretty close. But still impressive how you managed to guess that a dragon would get turned and breathe Icy fire even though it was the wrong dragon. 

However Daenerys will not die from her dragon. In fact that dragon will most likely die by the other dragons fire just like how Vicerys died, getting burnt. Viscerion is now undead which means that fire can kill it. 

Um... that's the fanfic on hbo, not ASOIAF. 

[Johnimus]

3 hours ago, TysonFury said:

 

I'm new here, what do you mean? 

S/He means that you are an uncultured mouth-breather who dares to watch the worst show on television, Game of Thrones.

For what it's worth, I think the show is great. Obviously it is different from the books, and that is fine. Some people around here think mentioning the show, which they hate, in the book forum is tantamount to sacrilege.